Woah, what brought this on friend?
Eh probably drunk in celebration(something I'm sure many are doing). Anyway he does have kind of a point. No matter how he's gone about expressing it. Why worry about competition when we can subvert them to our cause. There are other ways to skin a cat after all. This is the staple of communist the world over.
 
Or or bare with me THEY BECOME GRATEFUL TO US if we do this we are basically replacing the spirit talkers as THE spiritual authority of the territory AND it would upgrade our already existing values that is not even discounting the fact that we will have THREE chances to activate GG. We can then do

Main Megaproject Saltern
Secondary Improve Festivals
Secondar improve festivalsx2

to go back to stab 0

or my preferred plan

Main Mega project Saltern
secondary Grand sacrifice
Secondary grand sacrificex2
to get stab 1

Seriously have you learned NOTHING of the formation of the people!?
umm, this will run us out of econ for the megaproject
 
[x] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[x] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[x] Restoration
 
You can't sell knowledge like that. This isn't the modern age. It doesn't work, because there is no such thing as copyright, and it isn't a physical item. The first outside party you sell it to can sell it immediately to everyone around them and so on, and because it isn't a physical item, nobody is coming back to you for repeat sales. Seeing as the salt necessary for saline production can be made quite easily by drying out a pot full of salt, they have no reason to buy that from us either. So tell me, what exactly are you selling?

The fact is, giving this away is doing just that, for a completely temporary advantage that is insignificant in the long run.
... the cure is sold in bottles, meaning we can trade it, WE ARE NOT SELLING INFORMATION.
 
Economy 4->5

Chugging along just fine and dandy. Ready for a Megaproject are we~

And we have the Observance line from the STs! The one we kept trying to get but could not.

Does spawn superstitions galore though, so we'd need to find some way to purge those over time.


And glazing is officially ours!



Holy shit. Literally.
An empirical theory of health and we have the universal treatment for fevers. The ability to rehydrate and replenish salts for those rendered unconscious by one disease or another is going to be a massive boost for a lot of illnesses which you would have been able to survive if only you had the ability to eat.


We've also fixed the problem with mines. Now they should only do one Stability damage.


Cutting off trade has consequences. History passes into myth.


...succession crisis?
One side has the car, axe and a house. The other has unbroken continuity as a nomadic state. This is going to be fun I guess?

Oh, that explains why they didn't attack us, their cousins still remember the promise to never raid the Ymirri as long as their sons remain in power!


...I think the Spirit Talkers might have been onto something about the place being cursed.

Future Eastern Hills province remains in good condition.

The Stability people, it seems, were right about triggering a stability loss event, now striking people dead with Cholera.

Star rocks = curse!

Crow bless the Carrion Eaters and Sacred Warding. We tanked the Cholera spread roll.

And it seems the solutions to literacy was to create assistants, so shamans could, like chiefs, fully dedicate themselves to work rather than having to do upkeep and all that stuff.


...our infant mortality rate is insanely low for our era.
Even four out of six is insanely low.

I love Observance already.

Honorable Death triggers.

People volunteering for fatal medical experiments...this is going to creep the hell out of everyone else. What the Dead Priests use their slave caste for, we have people offer themselves up to sacrifice.


...and we accidentally developed the merits of glazed ceramic lavatories at the perfect time.

You know, this treatment is ridiculously expensive for anyone else. Honey was rare and valuable, because people had to venture into forests to gather the substance, but our Managed forests meant that we had large amounts of honey available in general as a luxury. Salt was rare since it was only available on coasts, and collecting it was very inefficient.

This was basically stuffing people with thousand dollar notes to cure them.


Red waste is iron oxide.
Yellow is sulfuric acid probably.

And there's hydrogen sulfides too.

A frigging iron mine!
That's sedimentary iron!


Superstitions meanwhile proliferate. Metal in general was considered a cursed material that could be unleashed. Which would align with the Star Axe.

...hey, is that Warpstone/Gromril theory?!

Reminder:

The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Stewards] [King] (3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Garden costs 3-6 Econ to complete.
Megaproject Focus allows for Main(state) + Main(Law) + Main(Province), so we can complete it in 1-2 turns provided with have Econ 7

Saltern - Building in the sea and experience with wall construction and fish traps suggests the possibility of trapping large amounts of water to extract tremendous quantities of salt [Stewards] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

Saltern costs 4-7 Econ to complete.
Megaproject Focus allows for Main(state) + Main(Law) + Main(Province), so we can complete it in 2-3 turns provided we have Econ 8

As such:
How many refugees?
[] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[] There is a war going on too you know (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)

Largest influx will cause us to hit overcrowding immediately btw. We only have 7 slots left.
The best option here is A significant number + Gardens, allowing us to finish the megaproject in one turn AND do a Restore Order in the same turn.
This will do the following:
Stability 0
Refugees -1
Next turn:
Main Restore Order +1/+2
Megaproject start +1
Megaproject end(Stewards) +1

Which takes us from 0 Stability to 3.

You have discovered powerful new magic
[] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)

Eh, not worth it. Few people can USE it, considering it takes Honey and Salt...of which we're kind of the regional supplier.

[] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)

Neutralish. It's hard to screw up, but only groups trading with us can even implement it.

[] Share with everyone who will listen (+1 Stability, other effects)

This will spread things to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom, which will help stabilize them and makes the Eastern Hills harder to grab.
However, taking this will block us from using Restore Order next turn.

[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)

Well...tempting, but only if we eat a very large refugee influx.

As such, my vote will be:
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

With the goal of next turn:
[][Main] The Garden
[][Secondary] Restore Order
[][Secondary] Restore Order x2

For Stability 3 in 2 turns.
Expand Economy - Redshore
Since RedShore just did an econ expansion, we only have 6 slots left. The baby boom takes 3 slots per turn...if you factor in only a -1 refugee wave, we'll only have 1 slot left (which will end the baby boom and bring us dangerously close to overcrowding).

Also, with the huge demand from sharing the "potion" translating to a huge-er demand for salt, a saltern seems more synergistic than gardens.

There's the southern coast to consider as well. If the demand for salt rises as high as we think, the HK might aggressively expand into the southern coast to get their hands on salt.
 
Honorable Death triggers.

People volunteering for fatal medical experiments...this is going to creep the hell out of everyone else. What the Dead Priests use their slave caste for, we have people offer themselves up to sacrifice.
Greater Good, mitigated by a Stab Gain from Honorable Death. A self-protective trigger, and a synergy I can honestly say I didn't see coming until it barreled into us.
I'm not even remotely terrified of it. As my arguments leading up to this vote should have made exceedingly obvious. I just consider the "let's keep knowledge of a cure most other polities would have to buy from us anyway" of minimal value, and stability is expensive, so it's a really nice trade.
Fair enough. My assessment on the value of stability is lower than most peoples', including yours. I'm of the opinion that it's a lot easier to restore stability (the following turn for my plan is effectively +3 stability straight out the gate for 4 econ, which is just fine by me).
 
Tally!

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 1100 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.8.3
[37] Megaproject Support
[32] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[30] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[15] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[13] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[9] Expansion
[4] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[4] Share with everyone who will listen (+1 Stability, other effects)
[3] Restoration
[1] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
Total No. of Voters: 50
 
*Flips Desk*
Fuck arguing with you all. I'm done. Atleast Veekie actually gives concise logical statements that actually contribute to debate.
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
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Mhm. I too (don't) support twiddling our thumbs and laughing as everyone we know that isn't us dies horrible deaths to (cholera) demons.
 
Eh probably drunk in celebration(something I'm sure many are doing). Anyway he does have kind of a point. No matter how he's gone about expressing it. Why worry about competition when we can subvert them to our cause. There are other ways to skin a cat after all. This is the staple of communist the world over.
not dunk just close to getting really, pissed.
 
You forgot two factors.

1) We are the only known source for honey.

And more importantly...

2) We don't want to be the assholes who let other people die when we can stop it.
1) Where was that ever established? Regardless, the situation with honey is the same as salt. It barely makes a dent in the overall market, especially long term.
2) We aren't. We regularly take in refugees who have strange ideas and morals. Even ones that are sick. Holding our powerful secrets is just good sense. As it is, we are the only group that doesn't go to war ever generation except in defense, and we don't have infighting. There is only so far we can go in being pacifists and altruists before it bites us in the ass.

Give me a real reason.
you forget that the price will be driven up by desperation ;)

That is such a short term benefit it isn't even funny.
 
Again, why is that so important? I mean obviously megaprojects give great advantages, but Saltern honestly sounds better and it's immediately relevant. And we get a free +1 stability just for starting it!

So why is it so important that we finish our next project in one turn? 3 turns from now we'll have both anyways, but Saltern is more valuable to us now.
A fair enough concern and I didn't quite remember the extra stability. I feel we should have a more honest discussion after things have calmed down though, it's kinda hard to figure out stuff going on in this mess and we both agree with the concept of starting a megaproject next turn, we just need a good discussion as to which and why without all the panic.

People keep saying this, and i don't get why...
Like, yeah, if we put literally all of our actions (2 main actions), our provinces go all in (2 more), and we kick things twice, then we can guarantee the garden...but why the hell would we spend 2 stability instead of just spending an extra turn? And i'll remind people that thats not "3-6 turns, average 4.5". during...i think it was the canal, we had a 5% chance per action of getting a free actions worth. Not 50% or anything like people seem to think. The saltern takes exactly 1 more action, which frankly just means we have to spend 3 of our own actions instead of 2, since either way it'll take 2 turns unless we get really really lucky.
Symphony encourages the lower range of those numbers since we're dealing with matters that are honestly both ecological and prob... I should ask.

@Academia Nut Considering both the Saltern and Garden are being made for fighting off this disease, can they be considered spiritual actions? For that matter is the Saltern considered an ecological effect for the purposes of Symphony?

Anyways, the garden is at least definitely an ecological project, and putting the entire state on it definitely counts as concentrated effort, so the odds should be decidedly that it will go faster. Maybe not, though, I suppose we shouldn't be super sure.
 
Symphony encourages the lower range of those numbers since we're dealing with matters that are honestly both ecological and prob... I should ask.

@Academia Nut Considering both the Saltern and Garden are being made for fighting off this disease, can they be considered spiritual actions? For that matter is the Saltern considered an ecological effect for the purposes of Symphony?

Anyways, the garden is at least definitely an ecological project, and putting the entire state on it definitely counts as concentrated effort, so the odds should be decidedly that it will go faster. Maybe not, though, I suppose we shouldn't be super sure.
Good point...though i've never been sure just how much those bonuses account for; i'm pretty sure we've gotten a couple such bonuses without megaproject timeframes changing, but yeah, it could easily affect the chances of a bonus action...
 
... the cure is sold in bottles, meaning we can trade it, WE ARE NOT SELLING INFORMATION.

While i regret shooting my own side....

We aren't actually giving/selling other people potions. We are telling them what causes the sickness and how to make the potions to strength the body to combat the sickness. If we are selling it, then we would be getting some economy out of it.

[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)

"Okay, the curse seems to spread through water, keep anyone infected and their waste away from drinking water, and here is a recipe for a potion that can really help."
 
1) Where was that ever established? Regardless, the situation with honey is the same as salt. It barely makes a dent in the overall market, especially long term.
It wasn't, I just find it funny to assume so, and was meant more as a joke.

Also, we kinda re the only ones with a handy forest on hand, so it does stand to reason.

2) We aren't. We regularly take in refugees who have strange ideas and morals. Even ones that are sick. Holding our powerful secrets is just good sense. As it is, we are the only group that doesn't go to war ever generation except in defense, and we don't have infighting. There is only so far we can go in being pacifists and altruists before it bites us in the ass.
Or, stay with me now, we could give out this secret, and save countless lives, and not be assholes who only helped people when it benefited them!

If this was metal working tech or something else, I could see your point. Even not sharing the vaccine I can get. But this is something that really won't hurt us in any way, shape or form to share, and saves many lives. So it might not be optimal for us, but I'll still stick with it. I want the Ymmir to be people willing to help others when they can, for good reasons.
 
1) Where was that ever established? Regardless, the situation with honey is the same as salt. It barely makes a dent in the overall market, especially long term.
2) We aren't. We regularly take in refugees who have strange ideas and morals. Even ones that are sick. Holding our powerful secrets is just good sense. As it is, we are the only group that doesn't go to war ever generation except in defense, and we don't have infighting. There is only so far we can go in being pacifists and altruists before it bites us in the ass.

Give me a real reason.


That is such a short term benefit it isn't even funny.
Ummm, let's not pretend that we take in refugees out of the goodness of our hearts. We only do it because it provides lots of economy (the possible tech is just a bonus). If it wasn't so beneficial to us, we'd leave them to die.
 
Hey, @Academia Nut, did you plan for the ungodly synergy between Greater Good and Honorable Death? Actually... given how it played out, would Greater Good be rolled into Honorable Death this turn, since they dovetailed so damn well together?
 
I just want expansion because every time we have the perfect chance to rapidly expand we piss it all away on a Mega Project and when we get the chance to do both, it's nope time to double down on a Mega Project.
 
Actually yeah it would up the value of salt. Even if you don't factor in the amount of salt used in saline solutions. You have to take into account the cultural and spiritual significance. Salt would become something more than just something to preserve food or flavour it but something you need to purify water of the "demons". From a commodity of the commons to the wealth of the nobility. That is something that will up the demand for salt. Something we'll be all to happy to supply.
IRL salt didn't need sanitary theory to be a massively valuable product. It's one of the most useful substances in the ancient world anyway.

Salt isn't used in the purifying process. It doesn't do much to purify water unless you use enough of it to kill. It's made into the saline solutions to replenish electrolytes depleted in the mass evacuation of people's systems induced by cholera.
... the cure is sold in bottles, meaning we can trade it, WE ARE NOT SELLING INFORMATION.
You can't keep that stuff sanitary in this day and age. Selling it would be literally bottling disease, and the amount of it necessary would be improbably large to even think about producing it for sale.

Also I don't need capital letters to read what you're writing.
 
While i regret shooting my own side....

We aren't actually giving/selling other people potions. We are telling them what causes the sickness and how to make the potions to strength the body to combat the sickness. If we are selling it, then we would be getting some economy out of it.

[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
We aren't getting Econ for it because we're communist...

1) we get diplomancy instead of Econ
2) we might aswell be selling the potion because most of the main ingredients must be bought through us to be in any way sufficient.
 
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