- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Oh right, I forgot his name.
Not necessarily assholes, just willing to go full Sicilian-when-death-is-on-the-line if provoked enough.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
Just woke up and I have to say congratulations thread you only made 10 new pages while I was sleeping. Now time to see what has been said while I was in the realm of Morpheus.
I'd expect it to be Sacred War again, honestly.
I'm pretty sure most of the assistants are the ones doing tally work, record-keeping, and other semi-administrative duties. The assistants wouldn't dare risk getting the sickness wrong.
@zamin
Actually, we were talking about a sextuple kicked war mission turn. That's the equivalent of 12 Main war missions.Scholarly Seed said:
zamin
The Watcher in the Dark
Eh, fair enough. I just wrote about the DP because I know more about them while the Highlanders are still a bit of a mystery to me. I could have written about the nomads, I suppose, but I think someone else already did an omake about doing a Super War Mission against the nomads.
Sorry, it's like 1am here. What's the correct term I should have used?
Actually, no. Nevermind. I declare that in this omake-verse the Ymmir have enough bullshit to summon as many main actions as needed! By the end of the game, the world will be covered in trees!
... I'll fix it in the morning.
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- Location
- Philippines
I don't understand why people want to "salt the earth" it is counter to our divine stewards trait and is more trouble than it is worth I can understand wiping out the enemies but better to plant forests and the like than ruin perfectly good land that we can expand to at a later date not to mention the salt can be used for more important things.
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The Dead Priests aren't in the right territory to trigger that one; too far from our march.
I think it's actually a diplomacy mission. We have decent odds of getting diplo back, especially considering the nature.
- Location
- Illinois
For this to happen, the enemy would have to pull off something that triggers literally every one of our traits. Any trait we get from such a war would be awesome and terrifying in equal measure.
It would not be a straight up 'and now you take pleasure in wiping out civilizations' type trait, or anything else assholish.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Academia Nut Thinking about doing a nega-verse omake for the Highland Kingdom, is this an accurate summary of how they work?
They've got a hereditary king who rules over settlement-level chiefs and more loosely rules over a scattering of minor vassal settlements in the lowlands. They've picked up a little bit of our culture, such as using a slavery system with elements of our own, but still much closer to average prehistoric slavery than to ours, with raiding for slaves and the use of slave labor in farming and other regular work instead of just for shit-work. We haven't heard much about their spiritual values, but they're not a very spiritual focused civ. They've wrecked face in the lowlands with massed, relatively "heavy" infantry with basic formations and chariot support. They don't seem to have metal working secrets, but do import some limited metal for luxuries from the southern hills metal workers.
Anything i got wrong or any major elements i missed?
They've got a hereditary king who rules over settlement-level chiefs and more loosely rules over a scattering of minor vassal settlements in the lowlands. They've picked up a little bit of our culture, such as using a slavery system with elements of our own, but still much closer to average prehistoric slavery than to ours, with raiding for slaves and the use of slave labor in farming and other regular work instead of just for shit-work. We haven't heard much about their spiritual values, but they're not a very spiritual focused civ. They've wrecked face in the lowlands with massed, relatively "heavy" infantry with basic formations and chariot support. They don't seem to have metal working secrets, but do import some limited metal for luxuries from the southern hills metal workers.
Anything i got wrong or any major elements i missed?
Kind of brutal yes. Committing to both would mean locking in a MINIMUM expense of 6 Economy before we have any actions to do things about it.
No flexibility, just ride the tiger and pray we reach the destination before we fall off..
I'm guessing if it was like the Sacred Forest, a project which generates a new repeatable action option, the overflow might sink into those actions, but otherwise it's generally wasted?
Actually, we don't see downsides evolve very often, and Observance's particular downside is HARD to double down on.
In Observance's case, what we need to evolve it is the same as what we needed for Eye for an Eye: Prove it false.
Generate a scenario where it's demonstrably making things worse
Get a 'discovery' from Observance, then empirically disprove it in a way that calls upon our other traits, to trigger critical thinking development.
I think we're most likely using mud and thatch, so probably mound shaped? Heap the material onto a grid of wooden poles. Let it dry. Heap more.
It's been mentioned that we've been using composite symbol ideograms. Flour is probably Grain + Stone for instance.
I'd also highlight that this synergizes with Sacred Warding's bonus to Study Health. Also likely with Stonehenge, which will likely generate more bonuses to Study Stars.
Actually it's gone to more of "The Dead Priests are misguided because OBVIOUSLY there is no price you can pay to buy off evil spirits forever. They will return each time and take a greater toll, stronger than ever."
Eastern Thunder Horse was the part which slaughtered their way through the Dead Priest tributaries in the past. So yeah.
Noting the substantial gap between scientific theory and what we have here.
The loose steps of:
1) Things just happen, we don't know why.
2) Rituals make things happen somehow. <- Superstition phase. We got things like the taboo against the dead, the King sacrifice, etc
3) You can figure out what rituals can work and why by studying the world. <-Comes with more developed religious infrastructure, unlocking the Study action series with sufficient dedicated intellectuals
4) You can get better rituals through systematic study and searching for patterns. <- Where we are now
5) Not all rituals are fully valid as they are, you should try to understand why they are so. Certain rituals done incorrectly can backfire, and hard <- Where to next
6) Maybe you should test whether things happen WITHOUT the ritual?
After that goes into developing philosophy, THEN scientific rigor and methods come far later.
And yes, I commented on the rehydrating solution previouly. There's an enormous spread of injuries and diseases that people can survive if they don't literally starve to death in the process. Most fevers work great for dealing with infection for instance, but they burn through body fat at an appalling rate to work, and if fevers cause unconsciousness, people tended to starve to death if they don't wake in a few days because they can't eat.
It looks like they've come to the errorneous conclusion that all metals are associated with curses in general as well. Possibly that they attract curses even.
We got the specialist for a while now, but the pits are new.
For the metal tailings, I believe we might be mostly making a lined ceramic pit to dump tailings in, and then when it's full we'd brick it up and bury it. Then open a new tailings pit. This probably would increase the Econ cost of a mine, but reduces the Stability costs.
Huh, didn't think of that. it makes the option of spreading the lore much more appealing to be sure. Beyond gambling on trait gains or going for Kicked megaprojects definitely.
Hmm, good point as well. Very nearly persuaded at this point.
"Someone destroyed this place, but mysteriously conducted proper funerals for all of them, and set down carvings that have since weathered poorly. Perhaps it was some kind of failed necropolis?"
Reality:
-Ymirri goes nuts and murders the hell out of everything.
-Ymirri, as per their beliefs, give everyone a proper burial to appease the spirits.
-Ymirri sets down marker stones which illustrates just what these guys did to get wrecked in graphical art.
We keep tax and legal records. I'm pretty sure that if we conduct such a huge endeavor it would be recorded clearly regarding how much stores was released for this task
Well, it IS tempting.
Actually we want Centralization to drop currently, because we need to build badly needed roads, but can't without taking Centralization into the red. We're going to want to cut it down and then Main some roads.
We also can't test Enforce Law without lowering Stability first.
Total War indeed.
Though we'd have to be insane to do it, unless there's a subtantial payout.
One kick per war action I think. I think we could kick the Secondaries individually though.
I think you mean "centralization."
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Please read our values. This has been a value for over ten turns now. I don't know how people still think it isn't something we can do.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
No, you're misreading that. We lose extra stability when the land is disrupted, (unless it's better in the long term), or when we lose land. We still lose stability if we disrupt the land out of revenge.
But there's no issue with doing The Dam whether before or after The Garden? The dam is going to be significantly higher upriver. you do not build dams near your cities.
Actually, sharing the knowledge with everyone does not prevent it from being weaponized.
The first half is preventative, you avoid cholera by not polluting the water, therefore if someone DOES pollute the water on purpose, then it automatically fails. Now, knowing it does make it harder to taint water supplies, as water sources will be more likely to be watched in war, unless you have ninjas. the DPs have ninjas.
The second half cannot be used by most people. The rehydrating potion can only be created with ingredients from rare and expensive sources.
-Salt is only obtainable near the coast, and prior to Salterns, extracting salt is slow and labor intensive. We're talking about soaking sheets of cloth in seawater and then hanging them to blow dry, then scraping the salt off the sheet, and repeating the process to gain usable salt. In the case of a deliberate contamination, there will not be enough for all but the highest leadership.
-Honey is only obtainable near significant forestry, though it's valuable enough that some cultures might have started on beekeeping, it's unlikely to be significantly productive except for us, who have kind of tamed our regional forestry so we can extract it safely from the wild. Fruit juices can substitute, but they don't keep well and they also come from forests.
Totally would Press THE BUTTON.
It would be educational.
Mmm, I wouldn't outright bet against it, but it does seem unlikely.
I think we might need to erect towers carved with elaborate scenes of what they did wrong and what we did to them for it.
We don't have enough salt to do that anyway.. It's dramatic, but it's also expensive as hell.
Easier to use wood to BURN the earth.
Naw, it's explicitly what Kicking War Missions represent. The People are so mortally offended that they are willing to turn their biological and ecological expertise to warfare, which costs us Stability because the very idea is horrifying.
Oops
Can we NOT glorify Total War? Think about what it means and then tell me it's not asshole behavior on the line of rapine or slavery.
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pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Academia Nut said:
My parsing of that is that either of the following cause additional strife:
- Deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land
- Loss of territory to others
In moral terms yes it's awful, but in terms of conception about war it is as far in advance of the age the People live in as sanitation is. Having it available would be quite the ace.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Agreed. We are not gonna be the assholes here, people.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I understand that that's what would happen mechanically, but narratively I'm struggling to think of how building roads could cause a crisis.
Taking actions to do those things at an additional cost of "strife" (stability?) to achieve a goal is one thing, being wiling to literally salt the earth for no practical reason beyond rage is an entirely different matter. Obviously we can cause some environmental disruption if there's a benefit, or mining wouldn't even be an option.
I didn't even realise you'd read it that way - the trait is very definitely not saying "It's okay if you poison the land so long as you hurt the other guy". It wouldn't fit the theme at all.
Total War hurts the winner too. It's an 'advance' akin to human sacrifice.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Funny the people who win total wars did very well.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Huh, must have lost that component when it changed out to Divine Stewards from Shapers.
All war hurts the winner too. Total war is an advance because it takes Machiavelli's advice to its logical conclusion: if you break your enemy utterly and beyond recourse he can't come back for vengeance. I for one am not going to vote for the option frivolously but it's nice to know its there.
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- Location
- Illinois
Honestly, total war would probably be demanded by our people if someone actually tried biological warfare. It'd be like someone using satanic rituals to brutally kill some other group to our people. There is no way we couldn't go all out in our response.
Edit: And if said satanic ritual was created from the desecrated corpses of a beloved saint.
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