Have to be honest... did you even read the discussion?
People wanted study health so we don't get buttfucked by the negative effects of mining and the minerals. And to figure out a way to lower stability loss from taking mining options

Uh, hate to admit it, but I kinda read a page or two, saw what everyone else was voting for, and decided to just go along with it. The part you're quoting was basically my own opinion at that time.

Only doable at Stability 2 or 3, but you are now imagining the hypothetical quintuple kick war mission against someone using biological warfare derived from the teachings of the People.

Unless you rolled incredibly poorly, you would probably get at least one full generation before anyone even considered poking you again, allowing for some recovery. We'd be talking archaeologists would be wondering what sort of ecological disaster caused the cessation of whatever civilization was involved, given that the layers would just stop at one point. Like, detritus layers from long term occupation, then a destruction layer, obvious burial and compaction, and only significantly later would the signs of human activity return.

Ah. Yeah. That would be pretty nasty.

... am I a terrible person for wanting to try it out on someone the first chance we get?
 
There are a lot of assumptions here that moar stability = moar better. From my perspective, it seems more likely that ideal stability would be moderate (so you have social upheaval, openness and mobility without the mayhem while we're freezing and starving.)

@Academia Nut what, if any, are the expected downsides of stability?
 
I'm pretty sure they didn't have a hero king, the hero was the one who founded the HK.
Centralization (which is once again at the borderline).
We want it to be borderline, as that's where it occasionally spawns minor problems which can be dealt with and grant us advancements. Go much higher and the problems start turning into crises, but lower and we lose advancement opportunities and disaster resistance.
... am I a terrible person for wanting to try it out on someone the first chance we get?
Yes. But that's not gonna stop me from voting to do the same right along with you (since they need to be huge jerks for us to start a war anyway).

@Academia Nut
Is Study Stars specific to the Spirits and Progress policies or will it continue to be taken even with other policies due to the sheer power of it and continuing its streak?
 
Wouldn't they unearth written records from the Ymrri?

Expect arguments among archaeologists over whether the written records (which wouldn't necessarily survive, and would almost certainly become mythical pretty fast) are accurate, or if the People were simply claiming credit for some sort of natural phenomenon, or if perhaps there was some sort of military expedition but it was during a time of plague or climatic upheaval.

Quintuple kick is

"Ummm... who's farming your land?"

"We have reserves. We'll endure."

"Oh. I see... I guess that explains why your women are here too."

Is Study Stars specific to the Spirits and Progress policies or will it continue to be taken even with other policies due to the sheer power of it and continuing its streak?

It's an ideal "filler" action, so on turns where there is nothing better to do it will go in, but otherwise much of the time it won't be taken.
 
[x] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[x] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[x] Restoration
 
Only doable at Stability 2 or 3, but you are now imagining the hypothetical quintuple kick war mission against someone using biological warfare derived from the teachings of the People.

Unless you rolled incredibly poorly, you would probably get at least one full generation before anyone even considered poking you again, allowing for some recovery. We'd be talking archaeologists would be wondering what sort of ecological disaster caused the cessation of whatever civilization was involved, given that the layers would just stop at one point. Like, detritus layers from long term occupation, then a destruction layer, obvious burial and compaction, and only significantly later would the signs of human activity return.

So basically we would invent total war.
 
Oh, wait. Did their hero king die off a while ago and I never noticed?
Well, he must've. If not, he's been alive for the past ~300 years since he started uniting them way back in "Turns out comets do mean doom".

It's an ideal "filler" action, so on turns where there is nothing better to do it will go in, but otherwise much of the time it won't be taken.
Damn, there goes our streak again I guess. New Province is still probably better than continuing the streak ourselves manually.

edit:
Is this supposed to be double kick/quadruple main? Or are you actually talking about 5x kick -> 10x main. How would we get enough actions to do that anyway? I thought we could only apply a single kick at a time.
 
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Specifically, they were over-centralized and under-expanded, and spent all their actions on study and Sacred War. The Observance downsides helped, but it wasn't their primary problem.

We basically can't do the over-centralization due to our province system, but we're in dire need of additional expansion. (Which is why I'm so annoyed everyone wants to complete the megaproject in 1-2 turns instead of expanding while doing it)

The downsides from Observance are likely to grow worse as the trait evolves, so we should try to fuse it if we can.
There is nothing wrong with Megaproject+Main Settlement as an action pair. Hell, if we do Saltern I'm betting we even get a bonus to doing so!
 
Well, he must've. If not, he's been alive for the past ~300 years since he started uniting them way back in "Turns out comets do mean doom".


Damn, there goes our streak again I guess. New Province is still probably better than continuing the streak ourselves manually.

edit:

Is this supposed to be double kick/quadruple main? Or are you actually talking about 5x kick -> 10x main. How would we get enough actions to do that anyway? I thought we could only apply a single kick at a time.
Double personal main-double persona kick, offense policy into another 2x main (that can likely also be kicked). March is the 5th?
 
Is this supposed to be double kick/quadruple main? Or are you actually talking about 5x kick -> 10x main. How would we get enough actions to do that anyway? I thought we could only apply a single kick at a time.

Oh wait, it would only be quadruple kick. But it would be [Main] War Mission x2 + Offence Policy producing two Main War Missions, giving four war mission actions that could each be kicked to double their effectiveness.

Although I suppose that yeah, depending on location the March could contribute too, and they sort of share your stability and could contribute two main missions...

Okay, if say the Western Thunder Horse decided to try biological warfare you theoretically have the resources to hextuple kick if you were at Stability 3.
 
Oh wait, it would only be quadruple kick. But it would be [Main] War Mission x2 + Offence Policy producing two Main War Missions, giving four war mission actions that could each be kicked to double their effectiveness.

Although I suppose that yeah, depending on location the March could contribute too, and they sort of share your stability and could contribute two main missions...

Okay, if say the Western Thunder Horse decided to try biological warfare you theoretically have the resources to hextuple kick if you were at Stability 3.
...and then Western Thunder Horse ended.

And was only spoken of in whispers ever again.
 
Just taking advantage of an opportunity to get Stability cheaply, since the Highland Kingdom's civil war means that they aren't competing with Southshore this turn, but ARE likely to spawn more refugees in the coming turns.
*shrug* As someone else said, if we say salt is a magical cure and aren't able to provide it for a price people will want salt, so an enterprising family member of the HK will be like "why not leave this chaos and settle near the seaside?" And bam, we've lost our monopoly on beach-front property.

If we do The Gardens, unkicked, we are likely to be able to start the Saltern the next turn, with Econ 5-8. Which allows us to immediately start the Saltern with the Gardens bonuses on top. And grab a new province a long the way if we want to. No need to stop to rebuild Economy.

Whereas if we Kick the Saltern we're not going to be able to pay for the Gardens, as we're going to need to rebuild the Economy AND spend more actions restoring the Stability cost.
The Stability cost of a kick is balanced out by the extra +1 stability, so we end up at a net 0 including the cost of taking in people for -1 Stability +2 Econ.
Still, its just quibbling over sequence of events.
Whether we go for(optimistic timeline):
Turn 1 - Gardens Started, Gardens completed
Turn 2 - Salterns Started
Turn 3 - Salterns Completed

Or:
Turn 1 - Salterns Started
Turn 2 - Salterns Completed
Turn 3 - Gardens Started, Gardens completed
Salterns can be finished in 4 turns which means it might possibly finish in one turn if we kick it. It's also just better suited for this turn.
I mostly just want to do it > The Garden because then we can do The Dam before The Garden, aka finally have The Damn Dam finished.
...and after all this writing I just realized the most likely reason to trigger the Ymirri might be the HK and TH trying to murder the DPs too hard...

Only if we don't share cholera with everyone, including the DP. Which will lose us Diplomacy because we're sharing w/ people other people hate but *shrug.* It might gain us it too.

This would not give us a casus belli, it would basically force us to go total war on whoever did it, regardless of what we were actually planning to do at the time, or what problems we had.
This scares me too, which is why I support sharing the info far-and-wide so that everyone knows everyone else knows and thus there's no point.
You would get 2 Stability, but man would that be a drain on the economy.
Wow. On the one hand I really want to do this, on the other hand I really don't want to do this.
Turn One:
King:
Main The Garden
Main Saltern
Kick The Garden
Provinces:
Main The Garden?
Main Saltern?

Econ - 4, Stability + 1. The Garden is likely to finish in one turn, and if it doesn't, it likely will if we do the same actions, assuming we have another 8 econ to burn which is like... actually possible, if Baby Boom gives us +3 this turn.


"Ummm... who's farming your land?"

"We have reserves. We'll endure."

"Oh. I see... I guess that explains why your women are here too."
"Your children didn't come?"

"They, too, are reserves. Which is why we put them in with the reserves."
 
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There is nothing wrong with Megaproject+Main Settlement as an action pair. Hell, if we do Saltern I'm betting we even get a bonus to doing so!
Yeah, that's what we basically have to do. However,
1) We don't get another action until we've built 2 provinces. Expansion would have made that happen automatically.
2) We have no action slots free to do things that need to get done. We need a new settlement ASAP for the econ slots and our provinces won't make one since we have enough econ for them to support the Megaproject. Since we also need to manually start the megaproject, we have no actions left.
Okay, if say the Western Thunder Horse decided to try biological warfare you theoretically have the resources to hextuple kick if you were at Stability 3.
Oh god. That would be ridiculous.
On a mechanical note though, how can we decide to kick province actions, since they aren't determined until after we choose ours? Or will they just decide to kick it whenever they feel like they should?
 
Is this supposed to be double kick/quadruple main? Or are you actually talking about 5x kick -> 10x main. How would we get enough actions to do that anyway? I thought we could only apply a single kick at a time.
+4 Provinces

Edit:
Megaproject Support Policy > Expansion policy rn because of Symphony.

We lose out on a possible Double Province expansion, but gain an increased likelihood of a 1 turn Salt-turn.
 
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Oh god. That would be ridiculous.
On a mechanical not though, how can we decide to kick province actions, since they aren't determined until after we choose ours? Or will they just decide to kick it whenever they feel like they should?

Honestly, if someone were so stupid as to use biological warfare derived from a gift of healing given by the People, the next vote would be

[] Press THE BUTTON
[] Let's think about this first
 
Honestly, if someone were so stupid as to use biological warfare derived from a gift of healing given by the People, the next vote would be

[] Press THE BUTTON
[] Let's think about this first
"The only question now is, do we kill everyone, or do we just kill their warriors and drive the rest of them a years march that way and salt the earth between us and them?"
 
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
Whilst the arguments for Expansion have merit, not being locked into a Megaproject for 4-5/6-7 turns is really good - and having the Megaproject's effects earlier is obviously nice too.

After the Megaprojects are done I'd like to focus on Art, for two reasons:

1. I think it's likely to be the most effective way of dealing with our burgeoning national identity crisis - it'll literally be creating/developing a shared culture.

2. I don't think we've ever really pursued art as a real focus for any period of time, so there's probably some low-hanging fruit there as "potential innovations":
Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Art
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

I would expect this to lead to things like maps, architecture, literacy improvements and so forth.
 
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...Would exiling sick people into other countries count as biological warfare?

Nah, but doing things like deliberately dumping waste into drinking water supplies based off of explicit knowledge given to you by the People as to how to avoid that, i.e. taking knowledge intended to help and using it maliciously to harm, would drive them absolutely berserk. Just kicking people out, well, even the People do quarantine. Also, it would pretty specifically have to be using the knowledge of cholera prevention within the next generation to truly produce ire, in that it would be obvious that someone was taking the knowledge freely given and abusing it.
 
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