Rather than impact the general XP rate, what do you think of increasing the cost of their next lvl up?

As in, if Hazou goes a meaningfully long time without leveling Taijutsu, instead of costing [N] xp, it becomes [N+(1/2N)] and then [N+N], and then [N*3], [N*4] and so on?

At first glance, it has the same "urgency" factor, while still allowing the growth of other skills.

Mari, for instance, would require a steep XP purchase to lvl her TH-ing skill, rather than generate 0 XP for leaving one of her "main" stats untouched for so long.

This allows ninja who may want to Respec to do so (Mari has mentioned she made a lot of personal genjutsu, so it was likely a core part of her build before TLitF took her passion for TH-ing away), while still preserving the narrative.
I think this could work only if the costs didn't come back down until we level it, because otherwise we'd still have no reason to go out and punch things when we can just let the Taijutsu cost increase until we want to level it, at which point we could just rapidfire punch some things to bring it back in line.

(Also it sounds like a lot more bookkeeping than subtracting from XP income, and part of the advantages of Stagnancy is that it's light on the bookkeeping)

Also might have the same problems as uncaps with the lesser-used stats. Something stagnancy does well is pointing at broad build 'roles' rather than specific stats, which means instead of pointing at individual stats we need to exercise the QMs point instead at one or two types of action that we can pursue. Taijutsu, Athletics, and Alertness loosely combine into a 'combat suite' role, and Sealing and Calligraphy combine into a 'sealing suite', and the QMs can just point at the broad-scope 'combat suite' or 'sealing suite' and tell us we should exercise one of those a little more.
 
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So, when the uncap system was originally introduced, it was a three-month free trial lasting up through the end of March. Now, after April Fools is over and we're not panicking about a stressful update, I'm ready to give my retrospective:
When the uncap system was announced, I was interested and tentatively optimistic. I agree with the motives for its inception, and as we saw with the wordcount penalties it's eminently possible to adjust the behaviour of the hivemind by changing the context of our decisions. This new system seemed poised to deliver that same benefit for our adventuring rates.

Unfortunately, the more I saw of the system, in discussions and in action, the more my optimism wore off. It comes with awkward edge cases, unpleasant side-effects, and isn't even all that good at what it's intended to do. Here following are the concerns I have with the current system:

1) Efficacy: The main thrust of the system is that, by forcing us to go out and do things to uncap our skills, we'll go out and have cool adventures on our own accord. The critical flaw, though, is that we are not always raising stats conducive to cool adventures. It would be one thing if we were pushing our Taijutsu or something else in our combat suite, but instead we're pushing Resolve and Sealing and we'll get around to Taijutsu... uh... eventually. The system doesn't not work, we're right now seeing incentive to go do a meaningful research project and uncap our Sealing, but as already mentioned Taijutsu is lying abandoned in a corner. Overall the uncap system is not very good at achieving its desired effects.

2) Edge cases: The premise of uncapping works out pretty well for our main stats. There's always another sealing project to do and another horrific monster to punch (sometimes in that order, in rapid succession), but there aren't many opportunities to use situational or low-level skills like Living Roots or Stealth. We may not have any intention of pursuing those stats right now, but the prospect of pursuing them does not sound simple or intuitive. If we wanted to level Cracking, we'd have to find a meaningful Cracking challenge for someone with level 4 Cracking, and then again at level 9, 14, and 19 before we can even begin to go up against anyone's Trapmaking for real. Finding these meaningful Cracking challenges would be... even if we knew where to look, it would feel horribly petty, wouldn't it? We'd be pursuing uncaps for the sake of uncaps, contriving a 'meaningful challenge' for skills we're not good at so that one day we might have an actually meaningful use for them. It's the awkwardness of fetch quests, just waiting to happen.

3) Side-effects: If a given uncap only affects the next division of five levels, the highest you can possibly move in one training plan is 9 levels. Bar any further elaborations or adjustments, all of which would increase the complexity of the uncap system, 'leapfrogging' stats across ABs becomes impossible. This implication was ratified by the QMs after some discussion of the topic with the hivemind. It's a reasonable decision, given the nature of uncaps, but it's still a bad aftertaste. Options for respeccing are already very limited, and leapfrogging was one of the critical tools for it in many of our build plans. Removing leapfrogging doesn't destroy respeccing, but it makes it much harder and makes many builds that much more calcified, which I find moderately dispreferrable.

Overall, the uncap system is not a failed system. The edge cases can theoretically be patched up as we run into them, and the loss of leapfrogging can just be the necessary price for the system to function. It doesn't stir us to action in quite the way it was supposed to, but we'll need to level Taijutsu eventually so it's not like it won't do anything. It's just... a lot of downsides, is all.

But a piece of advice I've seen from here is that while it's good to point out problems you see, it's better to also help solve them. So I was thinking about alternatives to the uncap system, and I think I have something:

Stagnancy, a mechanic which strongly encourages regular use of your main skills, whatever they happen to be.

The narrative side of it goes as such: A ninja who neglects their specializations, the skills which they forged in trials by fire, will naturally find themselves losing that 'edge', that something that kept them in top form. It takes more and more effort to simply avoid falling behind, cutting into the rest of their training time.

Mechanically, if a character goes an extended period of time without properly exercising the core skills of their build, they may receive a persistent 10% penalty to their XP rate, increasing in severity the longer the skills remain unused up to a 100% loss of all incoming XP. The penalty is removed/reduced when they go and use those skills in a meaningful way, until the next time they become so lax.

For someone like Hazou, his build is a mixture of Taijutsu-spec and Sealing-spec, so he is expected to engage in both those activities semi-regularly. If he goes a long time without doing any Sealing, he may begin to take an XP penalty until he does a proper sealing project. If he goes a long time without engaging in real combat, he may begin to take an XP penalty until he punches something in the face.

The exact duration 'a long time' represents is up to QM discretion, as is what roles a ninja's expected to stay active in. Given the trustworthiness of the QMs, I anticipate rigid and specific benchmarks would provide no meaningful advantage while bogging the whole thing down in nitty gritty. If y'all say Kei's gone too long without killing something with an exploding kunai, that's good enough for me.

For convenience's sake, it would be nice to have a short grace period before the penalty is properly applied. For example, at the end of an update the QM may state something like "Hazou thinks his Taijutsu is getting rusty. He wants to find some way to get some real practice in, before he starts slipping." and then we have a few updates to seek out a combat challenge to prevent the penalty from being applied in the first place. As with uncaps, NPCs can seek to avoid stagnancy penalties when possible, though if no opportunities are available they may still suffer one.

I believe this mechanic will do a better job of spurring us to do cool and interesting things than the uncap system, with fewer edge cases or side-effects. Firstly, stagnancy always pushes us to exercise what we're good at, meaning the challenges we seek out will always be level-appropriate and a good fit for our builds. Hazou will avoid stagnancy by doing sealing research and punching things, not by getting way out of his depth in social combat or doing Baby's First Lockpicking. Mari, by contrast, will avoid stagnancy by dancing social circles around people and weaving elaborate genjutsu rather than sneaking around unseen. This avoids the awkward edge cases of low-level or situational stats and should do a far better job of, frankly, getting Hazou off his butt and out there punching something.

Secondly, while it is true that stagnancy means we can level skills without actively using them, this is only up to a point: you can only level a stat so much before it becomes a focus of your build and you'll be expected to exercise it on the regular. Thus we allow characters to 'dabble' with as many skills as they like while organically ensuring the growth of our character is accompanied by appropriate feats: Hazou's social stats are not those of a career politician's, at least not yet, but if we choose to seriously push stats like Deceit and Presence so he can 1v1 people in the council room we'll soon find ourselves obligated to out-social people in the council room (or other similar activities), which to me sounds like a wonderful bonding of mechanics and narrative.

Overall, I expect the stagnancy system to be less bookkeeping than uncaps, less awkward than uncaps, and better than uncaps at changing the incentives of the hivemind in the direction of cool adventures that utilize the full potential of our characters. I imagine there are a variety of places where the system can be fine-tuned, but even as it is right now I strongly prefer it to the existing uncap system. What do you think?
I think you've summed up my feelings on the current system very well. It works....sort of, and has unintended consequences. I like your stagnancy idea. The only change I would make is that instead of looking for the amount of time since they've used their core skills, I would use the amount of time since they faced a real challenge. It avoids the issue of having to figure out what a Ninja's core skills actually are and meshes with the current system's AB pyramid explanation of having insight towards unrelated skills when improving one.
 
I think you've summed up my feelings on the current system very well. It works....sort of, and has unintended consequences. I like your stagnancy idea. The only change I would make is that instead of looking for the amount of time since they've used their core skills, I would use the amount of time since they faced a real challenge. It avoids the issue of having to figure out what a Ninja's core skills actually are and meshes with the current system's AB pyramid explanation of having insight towards unrelated skills when improving one.
I actually think that isn't far off from how my suggestion as-written works, because the idea of 'core skills' is that you can eyeball any given ninja as having like 1-3 things they're particularly good at, and then you want to encourage them to do more of those things. For Hazou he'd be encouraged to do challenging Sealing stuff and challenging combat stuff, both of which would wind up as 'facing a real challenge' for him since those are among his best stats.
 
I think this could work only if the costs didn't come back down until we level it, because otherwise we'd still have no reason to go out and punch things when we can just let the Taijutsu cost increase until we want to level it, at which point we could just rapidfire punch some things to bring it back in line.
Perhaps we could solve it by creating Stages?

Stage 1: [N+(1/2N)]
Stage 2: [N+N]
Stage 3: [N*3]
Stage 4: [N*4]
...(and so on)

And if Hazou let his Taijutsu go to Stage 4, he buys the next lvl of Taijutsu using Stage 4. Then the second time he buys a lvl, it's at Stage 3, the third at Stage 2, etc.

But, that said...

(Also it sounds like a lot more bookkeeping than subtracting from XP income, and part of the advantages of Stagnancy is that it's light on the bookkeeping)
Yeah, even if we allow for the Stages to apply to only the "suites," it'd add to the Marked for Spreadsheets effect.
 
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[X] Hang Out With Your Little Bro

[X] (roads) Build roads
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, involve Noburi
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, do not involve Noburi
[X] (roads)(toll) Do not charge a toll
 
[X] Hang Out With Your Little Bro

Personally, I would like this to specify actually going THROUGH the notes with Noburi rather than just talking about them
 
Hazō is going to propose in my next update
god, i have my mind in the gutter today
[X] (roads) Build roads
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, involve Noburi
i want it to have a quick head start; ambivalent about the toll, all we are doing points that startup cost to merchants have to be small in order to promote it but mantainance is a thing.
also, do we own this things?, can the merchant coulcil close them due to an embargo?
[X] Hang Out With Your Little Bro
 
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'many casters' means hiring as many MARI-casting ninja as possible without it becoming a financial problem.
Is there an option to buy non-casters and just transfer chakra? I voted for 'many casters' and suspect lots of other people did too because it seemed like the option for allocating a lot of manpower, but casting the jutsu takes so little time that it doesn't really matter if we have a lot of casters, just if we have a sizable chakra pool. That is until we start hitting chakra sickness limits.

That might be implicit in what you mean by involving Noburi, but I'm not clear on the issue.
 
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Is there an option to buy non-casters and just transfer chakra? I voted for 'many casters' and suspect lots of other people did too because it seemed like the option for allocating a lot of manpower, but casting the jutsu takes so little time that it doesn't really matter if we have a lot of casters, just if we have a sizable chakra pool. That is until we start hitting chakra sickness limits.

That might be implicit in what you mean by involving Noburi, but I'm not clear on the issue.
I personally read those options as 'how fast do you want to get this done - very fast, spending a lot of resources, medium fast, medium resources, or slow, low resources'.

I voted for many casters/Noburi because that seems like it's going to get it done ASAP, trusting Hazo to abstract the nitty-gritty into something sane.
 
Adhoc vote count started by RandomOTP on Apr 4, 2022 at 7:49 PM, finished with 93 posts and 18 votes.
 
[X] Hang Out With Your Little Bro
[X] (roads) Build roads
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, involve Noburi

So on the matter of the toll... While I think it'd be better if there wasn't one, we have to consider that we're setting the standard here... which means that all of the things associated with it need be reasonable. Do we expect others that also sponsor these things to not include a toll? No, not really.

But we can make the toll reasonable, to which others may follow suit. I think. Does this sound reasonable to anyone?
 
Hazō hasn't spent nearly enough time with Noburi recently. Let's change that!

[X] Hang Out With Your Little Bro
Word Count: TBD
  • Carve out a few hours to hang out with Noburi uninterrupted.
    • Shadow clones can take Prime's place dealing with business.
  • Relax, celebrate that your family has survived the war thus far.
  • Talk to Noburi about the research notes from Orochimaru.
  • Talk about...
    • Noburi's medical aspirations.
    • Interesting procedures he's seen Kabuto perform
    • His opinion on Tsunade
    • If he's heard anything about Tsunade's research being published
  • Thank Noburi for trusting Hazō to plan his training. Promise to allocate more time to medical training in the near future.
  • Mention that Hazō has considered learning about the body in order to use bioseals.
    • That Hazō will never be half the medic Noburi is, and that Hazō would like to see if they can work together.
    • "We know how important medicine and medical jutsu is to you. It's how we feel about sealing. We want to improve our art, just like you want to improve yours."
    • Ask if Noburi would be willing to help if Hazō decided to follow in his footsteps and learn about the human body.
  • Confess that something has been on Hazō's mind for a while.
    • Hazō overheard Noburi tell Kei that his chakra system was torn out and turned sideways.
    • Could Noburi please tell Hazō what that was about?
    • If it's something he's researching, can we help?
The more I read this plan the more I realize it is literally just a half dozen innuendos and attempts to woo Noburi.

[X] Hang Out With Your Little Bro
 
[x] (roads) Build roads
[X] (roads)(toll) Charge a toll
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, do not involve Noburi

Just because Hazo has won at deathworld-economy by means of invisible dragonslaying spider-seal-web, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to bankroll all roads, everywhere, forever.

The relaxation of international relations will likely lead to less restrictions on ninja, need for new jobs and I'm guessing even some increased privatization of ninja services as a result. This is THE project to get ahead of independent bandit ninjas and similar nonsense.

However, if it's built by cheating ninja bloodlines and bankrolled by dragonslaying, then we can't go to little Grass and show them that we have a stable system they can adopt, with new stable jobs that ninja can fill instead of a career in sabotage and violence. Without any resources to drive competition, there will be no motivation for innovation and maintenance other than altruism and we have only charity.

And while money is nice, the favours for advising other countries on infrastructure (assuming that the improved relations eventually allow that, obviously) could be priceless.

From the consumer POV, increased privilege means increased responsibility, that has always been how the game of civilization was played.

I did notice the ecological issue right away but the obvious reply is that we don't have the luxury to worry about enviromental factors that aren't trying to eat us.
 
It's a simple enough change, I can add it. I don't think that we'll actually make any progress on the notes since we need MedKnow and MedNin at 10 before we receive any benefit.
I agree, I was thinking this is more of a way to add what I hope is interesting context to the scene. That is, that it's them looking at the notes and being like "wtf" or maybe even Noburi explaining what stuff means to Hazou, rather than just discussing that they were obtained at all
 
Stagnancy, a mechanic which strongly encourages regular use of your main skills, whatever they happen to be.

I LOVE this post. I wish there was a way to triple-like.

Retro on the experiment, solid points about its successes & problem areas, and a different solution that seems well thought out & simple, that might address the same problems. Excited to see what QMs think about it! You've got my vote Inferno Vulpix!
 
That might be implicit in what you mean by involving Noburi, but I'm not clear on the issue
Hazō will do things the smart way. If Noburi is involved then "many casters" can mean "one chūnin plus a lot of genin batteries" or whatever else works


That says, @Velorien pointed out that I shouldn't be putting words in the player character's mouth. Therefore, someone else will think of it and the idea will be brought to Hazō for implementation.
 
[x] (roads) Build roads
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, do not involve Noburi
[X] (roads)(toll) Do not charge a toll

Using many casters incentivizes more people to learn MARI, meaning that in the long run more walls will be built as well.
I would be in favor of charging a very small toll, ideally only for merchants and other people who can afford it, but only if the money was earmarked to go straight into some infrastructure project such as upkeep of the road, much the way social security in the US is funded by a payroll tax.

EDIT: Note that players in Discord are raising issues that I, and therefore Hazō, had not considered, such as potential ecological impact. I'm almost reluctant to post this bit because I'm afraid it's going to result in people voting "Don't build the roads and instead have countless meetings about ecological studies" but I feel that it would be unfair for me to have the poll and then have it cause problems later on without pointing out the potential for issues. Obviously, the QMs have no current intent for the project to cause issues but now that the issue has been pointed out to us there's a possibility that it could. Also note that this is an idea that I had and I'm posting it on my own without talking to @Velorien first.
I would expect the biggest ecological problem to be that animals are unable to migrate to the opposite side of the road and that their territory would be cut in half. Once Hazō realizes this problem, he can fix it by having tunnels placed in the road, with the people/carts crossing over what would effectively be arches or bridges. This could be accomplished via Earth Shaping, or by knocking down a section and using MEW to create a bridge/arch.

Also, 1 meter thickness may not be enough for the bigger carts to travel along. It may be better to double the thickness, thus doubling the CP cost of project.

Actually, considering that we may need room for people to pass each other going in the opposite direction, it may require a bit more room still. Not sure if it's best to start with 4 meter thickness though, probably better to start with either 3 meters or 2 meters with lots of ramps along it, then scale up as traffic increases. It might even be best to start with 1-2 meters as a proof of concept, and just forbid carts above a certain width until we scale up.
 
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Also, 1 meter thickness may not be enough for the bigger carts to travel along. It may be better to double the thickness, thus doubling the CP cost of project.
Already done:
Put three of these side by side and you have a flat stone road 3m wide with a surface 3m above the ground with no paving-stone joints to roughen the ride.

oooo.... that's a big red button just sitting right there....

*push*

[X] Armageddon Initiative
FYI, if you're doing a meme vote it's a good idea to use [jk] or [Y] or literally anything other than [X] or [x]. The last time there was low voter turnout and a group of people got behind a joke vote...things went poorly.
 
FYI, if you're doing a meme vote it's a good idea to use [jk] or [Y] or literally anything other than [X] or [x]. The last time there was low voter turnout and a group of people got behind a joke vote...things went poorly.
Capital chi - Χ - is another good choice, it doesn't show up in the tally either. If you find the meme vote itch isn't scratched by a [jk]
 
I don't really know that we know what the effects of having a toll or not having a toll would be well enough for it to be anything but a coinflip, tbh.
 
[X] (roads) Build roads
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, involve Noburi
[X] (roads)(costs) Use many casters, do not involve Noburi
[X] (roads)(toll) Do not charge a toll




 
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