Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Inferno Vulpix · Jan 10, 2022

Veedrac said:
We are literally talking about something where if Akane does things in the wrong place she might end Leaf and if she does things in an insufficiently private place people might observe CO₂ deposition and thus end all of humanity and where we fully intend to walk up to potential Grues and the solution is to talk to your girlfriend about the massive world-shaping responsibility you might be giving her and even if it ends up not working or Akane is too upset about it to ever use it shouldn't you have checked first?

Doing the training without the bare minimum of precautions is a really, really, really bad idea. If this quest ends because people build a nuke without thinking it's worth spending 50 words to put into the plan to make sure it goes with a bare minimum of precautions, I really don't know what to say. There will be a new word in the dictionary for people who militantly espouse the importance of ritual dances to ward off bad jujus but don't think it's relevant to tell someone their hairdryer is actually a nuclear weapon, I will assure that.

All the caution in the world won't make the air turn to liquid at EM 33. I am, as I said earlier, strictly in favour of ensuring we reach nuke levels with the safety protocols firmly established, and I even support doing it the moment we start leveling EM again (be it now or in a future training plan). I simply do not feel dealbreaker urgency when the fail-state cannot happen with the training plan proposed.

Though talking to Akane is another good point; the reason we're pursuing higher EM in the first place is to chase a hunch that it might lead to a superweapon, and even if we don't know for sure it will do so IC it's worth an honest conversation with her anyways.

Lord Marshal · Jan 10, 2022

[X] Training Plan Akane: Resolve Jump

Cariyaga · Jan 10, 2022

ProperAttorney said:
I may be misunderstanding the new cap system, but wouldn't we only be able to level resolve to 44? Since we would need to uncap it again for 45-49, and then again to actually get to 50.

I don't know! I just know that we've been planning this for a while, and that there is actually no other way to achieve 39->50 for Akane in reasonable fashion because of the way the skill pyramids work.

Kiba · Jan 10, 2022

I am not really keen on starting another shit with the Hagoromo. If the Hag leave us alone, we leave them alone.

Lord Marshal · Jan 10, 2022

Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst
Word Count: 219

Nara

Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with Asuma's war advisors.

Sand False Flag Operation:

If the ploy fails, Sand may team up with Rock and Cloud instead. Additionally, we are weakening an ally when they are already weak.

Instead of committing false flag against Sand, why not perform a false flag against Rock,posing as Sand ninja?

If the ploy fails, the operation is still valuable in that it weakens our enemies. If successful, our ninja can retreat back into Wind Country to bait Rock into invading.

Additionally, there is less risk of turning an ally against ourselves.

Otter Hunters

Necessary roles to fill (some may overlap):

Two Combat Specs.

Suggestions: Yuno, Akane, a Summoner such as Kei or Ruri

Social Spec/Infiltrator, for coaxing info out of locals without giving away ninja-ness.

Suggestions: Mari, a Yamanaka, Anko

Tracker/Scout/Anti-Ambush, for locating the Scroll and any useful locations our intel gives us.

Suggestions: Hazou (he can acquire Summons), an Inuzuka

Hyuuga or Sasuke for detecting the Scroll's chakra signature.

Suggestions: Neji, Sasuke

A Summoner.

Suggestions: Hazou, Kei, Neji, Ruri

Possible concerns:

Inuzuka dogs, Hyuuga eyes, Aburame glasses, Summon Scrolls are all very distinctive. Perhaps team could be granted ANBU masks to hide byakugan?

Additionally:

Either Hazou or Mari should stay to help run Goketsu, don't send both.

Could you add explaining, not proposing the Wakahisa Water+Shadow Clone combo for Akane to the clan in case of short term missions? With Resolve 50 that would mean more clone hours.

Oneiros · Jan 10, 2022

Shrooms said:
I understand people want him to be alienated so he's more loyal to us but that's pretty fucked up in my opinion. I don't want to intentionally draw him more ire, personally.

As the person who wrote the long explainer of this I to would like to not do it. That's was just how you turn people not a recommendation.

I also would like to avoid get engaged in another Hag arc. The way the issues around it where handled last time doesn't give me much hope that a round two would be productive. Also I feel the current plans people are proposing are lacking. They don't have a clear goal or objective and potentially risk provoking Asuma's wrath for no gain

Sentient Tree · Jan 10, 2022

Shrooms said:
I'm also concerned Hazou's presence at their compound will make them bully Harumitsu more. I understand people want him to be alienated so he's more loyal to us but that's pretty fucked up in my opinion. I don't want to intentionally draw him more ire, personally.

Hazō will be at the Hag estate anyway, to train Harumitsu. Asuma told us not to do training outside of it.

Shrooms said:
I don't know what kind of endgame we expect out of this? We're not going to get Harumitsu to leave his clan, they won't lose their only sealmaster willingly (there's weirdness here - the Minami had to appeal to the Hokage to leave the Hyuuga but Snowflake seemed to think it was trivial to leave the Goketsu. I dunno all the rules.) He's already pretty loyal to Hazou, if we want info out of him it probably wouldn't be hard to Social-spec it out of him with like empathy or rapport 30. And he's not going to be able to give up clan secrets pretty much no matter what.

Endgame is strengthening the moderate faction within the Hagoromo. People were jealous of Ami being able to pull off the big political moves she bragged about, but we can only do that with the right information. This is how we get the information necessary to pull off big political moves, setting up people who will be our eyes and ears in Leaf. A similar action would be to start collecting gossip from the Gōketsu ninja/civilians living on our estate.

I'd be fine with changing this to directly getting information out of him with Rapport/Empathy. He honestly probably is pretty well turned already. And we're not exactly asking him to reveal clan secrets, we just want to know who in the Hags have Ritsuo's ear, what they're like, and who has been wondering if the clan is a bit more conservative than is reasonable.

Oneiros said:
As the person who wrote the long explainer of this I to would like to not do it. That's was just how you turn people not a recommendation.

I think you're underestimating just how much we need to do to turn Harumitsu. He's already been cut off from his support network, since it didn't exist in the first place. All we need to do is the easy part, showing him love and unconditional support. Which we've been doing. Plus there are plenty of spies that have turned without having their entire support systems destroyed. You described what we'd need to do in order to get him to the point where he'd do literally anything for us, including drinking cyanide. We don't need to go anywhere near that far to get information out of him.

ProperAttorney · Jan 10, 2022

Cariyaga said:
Alternative training plan

[X] Training Plan Akane: Resolve Jump
Resolve 39 -> 50 (495 XP)
30 Yamanaka XP used
465 normal XP used
3 XP remaining

@eaglejarl @Velorien
Is this a valid plan, or we capped to 44?

Shrooms · Jan 10, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
Could you add explaining, not proposing the Wakahisa Water+Shadow Clone combo for Akane to the clan in case of short term missions? With Resolve 50 that would mean more clone hours.

This sounds more like a SOP to vote in more than a plan imo. Like "SOP: When Akane is deploying on missions, cast SC and refill them just before leaving. Wear hoods to disguise them." Or something like that.

Sentient Tree said:
Hazō will be at the Hag estate anyway, to train Harumitsu. Asuma told us not to do training outside of it.

I'm pretty sure we've trained him at our place too. We've kinda had to when working on the Great Seal, for instance. But also, Kagome has been stated to pop in on lessons as well, which I don't think would happen at the Hag estate. On top of the Hags not already having proper facilities and infrastructure for Sealing purposes, etc.

Sentient Tree said:
I'd be fine with changing this to directly getting information out of him with Rapport/Empathy. He honestly probably is pretty well turned already. And we're not exactly asking him to reveal clan secrets, we just want to know who in the Hags have Ritsuo's ear, what they're like, and who has been wondering if the clan is a bit more conservative than is reasonable.

Sentient Tree said:
All we need to do is the easy part, showing him love and unconditional support. Which we've been doing.

That's all well and good but those are also the reasons I don't feel inclined to do the suggested scene right now.

Separately, wasn't there a voted-in conversation with Ruri that was potentially going to happen onscreen or offscreen depending on what people wanted? That could be the second scene of the plan

Sir Stompy · Jan 10, 2022

TelosArrangement said:
Does anyone have a handy link or description of the EM nuke? I thought it was point-source cold front that made a kind of toroidal tornado, and maybe had some side effect of liquid oxygen being very flammable and the liquid gasses freezing things, but the way y'all are talking about nukes and craters makes me think some More Advanced Science Shit is happening.

The phase transition drops the pressure of the affected zone to essentially 0, maybe 100 millibar from the vapor pressure of liquid air. Compare that with actual tornados which have pressures of 900 millibar out of 1 bar standard atmospheric pressure. If a 100 millibar difference is enough to cause 300 mph winds, what will a ~900 millibar difference do? Normal wind variation is 15 millibar. It's going to be very destructive.

Sir Stompy · Jan 10, 2022

[X] Preparations for War
Word Count: 298

Check plan with Mari
At the Nara Estate
- Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with Asuma's war advisors.
- Question, do you have any intelligence on western Wind, Claw, or Fang?
- Hazou is concerned with the deception failing and Wind entering the war on the wrong side
  - Could we not pose as Sand ninja and attack Rock?
- Otter Hunters
  - Necessary roles to fill (some may overlap):
    - Two Combat Specs.
      - Suggestions: Yuno, Akane, a Summoner such as Kei or Ruri
    - Social Spec/Infiltrator, for coaxing info out of locals without giving away ninja-ness.
      - Suggestions: Mari, a Yamanaka
    - Tracker/Scout/Anti-Ambush, for locating the Scroll and any useful locations our intel gives us.
      - Suggestions: Hazou (he can acquire Summons), an Inuzuka
    - Hyuuga or Sasuke for detecting the Scroll's chakra signature.
      - Suggestions: Neji, Sasuke
    - A Summoner.
      - Suggestions: Hazou, Kei, Neji, Ruri
  - Possible concerns:
    - Inuzuka dogs, Hyuuga eyes, Aburame glasses, Summon Scrolls are all very distinctive for a false flag. Perhaps team could be granted ANBU masks to hide byakugan?
- Share intelligence on Dragons, ask to optimize the skyslicer ambush plan
- On the Seventh Path:
  - (offscreen) Explain the rough parameters of the Otter Scroll mission to Cannai. Does he know any trackers that might be capable or helpful to finding the scroll? Ask him to put us in contact.
  - To Cannai's candidate (if any), bring a no-strings-attached gift: those things which Dogs in the trade network have found the most valuable.
  - Explain the mission we're taking in dramatic style – does the tracker want to find an ancient treasure lost before modern memory? Does the tracker want to change the fate of another summon clan?
  - Bring the optimized skyslicer plan to Kumokugo, ask for feedback.
    - If she thinks it has promise, ask her to assign Hornet teams to train in skyslicer emplacement.

eaglejarl · Jan 10, 2022

faflec said:
So...to be clear, we do need to make a roll in order for a cap to be lifted?

There is some debate about that. It's safe to assume that if there is a roll then you will get an uncap. There might be an exception, one example being if the roll is mostly being done for humor, but it should be a good general rule.

Sentient Tree said:
Hazō will be at the Hag estate anyway, to train Harumitsu. Asuma told us not to do training outside of it.

He strongly encouraged you to train Harumitsu at the Hag estate as much as possible, since the whole point is to build bridges between the Hagoromo and the Gōketsu. He did not mandate it, since he's not a sealmaster and he's not going to override your judgement on where things should happen for safety.

ProperAttorney said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien
Is this a valid plan, or we capped to 44?

We'll get back to you as soon as we figure it out.

Kiba · Jan 10, 2022

The only thing we need to be doing with the Hags is to build bridge.

If Rituso decided to stay in the way of that, then that guy should fuck off.

Lord Marshal · Jan 10, 2022

Shrooms said:
This sounds more like a SOP to vote in more than a plan imo. Like "SOP: When Akane is deploying on missions, cast SC and refill them just before leaving. Wear hoods to disguise them." Or something like that.

True, but the people in-universe knows more about missions than we do, so asking for their feed-back could be helpful. Mari could simply veto it as a stupid idea or point problems we didn't notice, or apply it to her missions too from what we know. Finally, it can a pretty heartwarming scene of Hazou being scared for Akane, if we want a romance scene. Statistically speaking, doing things without sanity check is what ends badly for us.

Oneiros · Jan 10, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
True, but the people in-universe knows more about missions than we do, so asking for their feed-back could be helpful. Mari could simply veto it as a stupid idea or point problems we didn't notice, or apply it to her missions too from what we know. Finally, it can a pretty heartwarming scene of Hazou being scared for Akane, if we want a romance scene. Statistically speaking, doing things without sanity check is what ends badly for us.

Honestly it sounds like a completely unworkable idea. Chakra water only last a few hours in a canteen and the border is father than that.

Sir Stompy · Jan 10, 2022

Veedrac said:
We are literally talking about something where if Akane does things in the wrong place she might end Leaf and if she does things in an insufficiently private place people might observe CO₂ deposition and thus end all of humanity

How does observing CO2 deposition end humanity? I don't see the connection

Oneiros said:
Honestly it sounds like a completely unworkable idea. Chakra water only last a few hours in a canteen and the border is father than that.

The clones are cast in Leaf and refill before they leave, so they're topped full up when they hit the border. It's not a bad idea, turns chakra from reserve ninja into chakra for active duty ninja.

Veedrac · Jan 10, 2022

Sir Stompy said:
How does observing CO2 deposition end humanity? I don't see the connection

Because it allows drawing the connection to Elemental Mastery, and like with Skywalkers, these ideas can be stolen or re-derived, especially in the presence of cheaty eyes, and with Isan still freely using the jutsu. The Elemental Nations does not have the coordination to avoid destroying the planet once that happens.

Lord Marshal · Jan 10, 2022

Sir Stompy said:
The clones are cast in Leaf and refill before they leave, so they're topped full up when they hit the border. It's not a bad idea, turns chakra from reserve ninja into chakra for active duty ninja.

Or casted a few hours out of Leaf, just before the Chakra water becomes useless and then topped full with different canteens, one for clone.

Sir Stompy · Jan 10, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
Or casted a few hours out of Leaf, just before the Chakra water becomes useless and then topped full with different canteens, one for clone.

This saves clone time, but is unpredictable and inefficient. The chakra drains from the canteens nonlinearly. Don't think it's worth it tbh.

Veedrac said:
Because it allows drawing the connection to Elemental Mastery, and like with Skywalkers, these ideas can be stolen or re-derived, especially in the presence of cheaty eyes, and with Isan still freely using the jutsu. The Elemental Nations does not have the coordination to avoid destroying the planet once that happens.

Sure I guess, it's not going to be obvious immedietly to anyone who isn't a Hyuuga that the Thermostat no Jutsu is what caused all this devastation. Especially since Akane can cast it from a tunnel underground and then bug out. A Hyuuga would know immedietly though, since they'd be able so see the similar chakra patterns.

Veedrac · Jan 10, 2022

Sir Stompy said:
Sure I guess, it's not going to be obvious immedietly

So put it in numbers for me. What probability of destroying the world is worth being able to put off a conversation with your girlfriend that you ought to have as a matter of basic etiquette anyway, and also that would cheaply verify that the investment would work? 5%? 3%?

This decision is so overdetermined that there really isn't any way to meaningfully argue against it.

A Hyuuga would know immedietly though, since they'd be able so see the similar chakra patterns.

Which is why it's extremely important to 1. never cast the nuke anywhere that Hyūga could see it cast, and ideally they wouldn't even be close enough to catch the active jutsu post-cast, and ideally Akane would be using a shadow clone and have a visible alibi so it couldn't possibly be her, and 2. never show Akane training this jutsu beyond small, preferably positive, temperature gradients. The Hyūga don't have enough science to deduce the link between a mega tornado thing and a house warming jutsu. They have cheaty enough eyes to copy the jutsu if they figure it out from a long lasting CO₂ sublimation jutsu.

Oneiros · Jan 10, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
Or casted a few hours out of Leaf, just before the Chakra water becomes useless and then topped full with different canteens, one for clone.

Honestly this just seems needlessly complex. Why don't we just have Akane hit her targets with SC? She's just trying to wreck infrastructure and kill weak scrubs so should work

Sentient Tree · Jan 10, 2022

Shrooms said:
I'm pretty sure we've trained him at our place too. We've kinda had to when working on the Great Seal, for instance. But also, Kagome has been stated to pop in on lessons as well, which I don't think would happen at the Hag estate. On top of the Hags not already having proper facilities and infrastructure for Sealing purposes, etc.

Huh. I hadn't thought of them probably not having sealing facilities to train at. Good points.

In that case, we don't actually need to do the information extraction part ourselves. Just have Mari "happen to drop by" and chat him up about the Hagoromo. She'll be able to get all the information we need without him even knowing.

eaglejarl said:
He strongly encouraged you to train Harumitsu at the Hag estate as much as possible, since the whole point is to build bridges between the Hagoromo and the Gōketsu. He did not mandate it, since he's not a sealmaster and he's not going to override your judgement on where things should happen for safety.

Ah. Well, there we go then.

Shrooms said:
Separately, wasn't there a voted-in conversation with Ruri that was potentially going to happen onscreen or offscreen depending on what people wanted? That could be the second scene of the plan

The Ruri scene is telling her that Kei's trip to Condor territory is a political and military trap for the rebels and to please convince them not to attack Kei's group.

In fact, it's possible that the pangolins will have reduced security elsewhere in Condor in order to add security to the area Kei will be in. If that's the case the rebels may be able to have extra success in attacking the areas with reduced security since the pangolin won't be expecting the attack to target areas far from Kei's visit. Failing that, they simply need to wait until Kei is gone and the trap is no longer able to spring.

I'd be fine with us doing the Ruri scene instead of the Harumitsu one. It's something we absolutely need to do, whereas the Harumitsu scene is just something that will give us shinies.

Shrooms · Jan 10, 2022

OK, for Noburi's build, improving his medical skills will require upping some 20s to 30s. He has pretty decent combat prowess already and he frankly isn't likely to see combat for a good long while now anyways due to how important his job in Zoo Rushes are, so they can probably be sidelined for the moment.

Besides that, Noburi probably has the best shot of getting Sage Mode assuming it is compatible with his bloodline. There are 3 stats at play here. Chakra Reserves and Physique to actually be capable of undergoing the training, and Rapport to get information on it in the first place. Luckily, all 3 of these are 20s that can be pushed to the 30s. I think Chakra Reserves should be increased first, as not only does it help him with Sage Mode, it also makes him better at the Zoo Rush strategy and gets him close to Boss-Summon territory. If he exhausted his entire barrel with CR 30, he could summon a 500 CP summon, which is likely close to what Ma and Pa will cost, allowing them to talk to the other Goketsu and potentially tell THEM about Sage Mode (or just hang out and talk about Jiraiya). Plus, chakra increase is generally good for every build for casting jutsu etc.

Getting to CR 30 is 228 XP, he's currently at 147, so I think we can wait on proposing a plan for him.

Sir Stompy · Jan 10, 2022

Veedrac said:
So put it in numbers for me. What probability of destroying the world is worth being able to put off a conversation with your girlfriend that you ought to have as a matter of basic etiquette anyway, and also that would cheaply verify that the investment would work? 5%? 3%?

This decision is so overdetermined that there really isn't any way to meaningfully argue against it.

Yeah I agree, we need to approach the EM training with its own scene. I think we should reorganize her pyramid now anyway. EM nukes are useless against Rock (since it's underground) and we're probably making peace with Cloud right now. So they're of limited usefulness in the short-term future.

Veedrac said:
They have cheaty enough eyes to copy the jutsu if they figure it out from a long lasting CO₂ sublimation jutsu.

What is this long lasting CO2 sublimation jutsu? EM? It doesn't do that, I don't understand.

Veedrac · Jan 10, 2022

If Noburi gets Sage Mode he'd be able to turn people to stone with his whip.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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