- Pronouns
- He/Him
Exactly, so either there's *another* rock squad over there, a different set of ninja, or it actually was chakra beasts
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
The SOP is designed to ensure we do not take a Mild Consequence on a FD roll of -6 or greater. If you want to not take a Mild Consequence in any circumstance, you need six fewer clone-hours than that.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Let's math this out too.
33 000 CR is ~66 full Asumas, if he has 50 CR. One instance of moving 500 CP would involve:
- Leaf!Wakahisa draining it from a number of ninja. (Full Round?)
- Leaf!Wakahisa transferring it to Asuma (Full Round.)
- Asuma reverse-summoning. (Standard Action?)
- Noburi draining Asuma (Full Round?)
- Asuma unsummoning. (Standard Action?
- Noburi unsummoning (Standard Action?)
- Noburi transferring chakra to a Summoner (Full Round).
- Noburi reverse-summoning. (Standard Action?)
I do believe this works!
Right. Updated the spreadsheet with the assumption that the jounin would not want to get a consequence (as they'll fight afterwards), but everyone else is fine with getting one. That doesn't change the results.
Thanks for prompt answers, by the way!
This is a good point, they would have to pass the Scroll back and forth. But it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I forgot Keiko is a special case. Totally solves any problem with number of refills.
I think 2 or 3 Wakahisa is better than one here, since they could take turns draining Leaf's population and refilling Asuma.
Note that it makes more sense for Noburi to top up to 1250 cp before returning to the 7th path. So 2.5 Asuma trips for every Noburi trip. Also the draining might take longer than 1 round. I think there's a ruling in the VD section of the bloodline document.
- Location
- Yes.
Thanks, @Shrooms. I've made some changes to your plan and made it my own in case you can't make any changes this cycle (pls don't hate me).
[X] Give Us Some More Numbers
Word Count: 298
[X] Give Us Some More Numbers
Word Count: 298
- [In Meeting]:
- Hazou speaks ONLY if he thinks it's a good idea, and considers flaws in his thoughts beforehand.
- Idea: Use Noburi to transfer chakra water to a larger offensive force.
- Theory: Given sufficient chakra, Leaf summoners could summon an arbitrarily large Jonin-level army anywhere, in an hour.
- Similar to our previous suggestion, but Noburi takes chakra from another Summoner, who refills at Leaf from another Wakahisa and multiple chakra-battery ninja.
- In the field, people get chakra refills from Noburi for Summoning or other costly jutsu (SC).
- This force is renewable: Actual Summoners need not engage.
- We can also add other forces (e.g., artillery-types).
- Limitations:
- Many of our Summoners have limited contracts; they'd need to make multiple contracts, even if temporary.
- The additional Wakahisa may leak the strategy to Mist.
- There's a timer due to the upkeep payment.
- Hazou isn't sure what other hard targets Rock has, but the option exists.
- Theory: Given sufficient chakra, Leaf summoners could summon an arbitrarily large Jonin-level army anywhere, in an hour.
- ...There were missing patrols in the northeast border. 'If' Rock's responsible, we should also look to reinforce there.
- [After Meeting] Gouketsu ninja meeting, including Kei/Snowflake.
- Infodump everyone. Explain expected roles.
- (Encourage Noburi if he's upset with being in a support role. We know he's more than that.)
- It goes without saying, but fight to win.
- Mari, consider telling Asuma what you're capable of with Shadow Clone and TLitF. You could potentially solo an invading squadron with TLitF lockdown.
- Infodump everyone. Explain expected roles.
- Off-screen:
- With Asuma's permission, inform Cannai/Kumokogo of recent events. Hazou will not forget the crisis on the 7th Path. They've done so much for him it feels selfish to ask, but any further support they could offer would be immensely appreciated.
- We're unfamiliar with Rock's abilities, outside of proficiency with Earth Jutsu. Info on jutsu, clans, bloodlines, common seals, top ninja, fortifications, etc. would be helpful.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
[X] Give Us Some More Numbers
- Location
- Yes.
I'd be OK with adding them, could you give me some more details with how the Earth Clone bombardment would work?
I'd say we should specifically bring up the possibility of Lightning involvement rather than keep it nebulous.
I'd also prefer some more content in the plan. Raise the Summon Army idea to the council and ask Asuma to negotiate for a couple Wakahisa?
Noburi can drain 80 chakra a round, since draining is capped at 2x VD level. So it takes him 7 rounds to fully drain a 500 cp ninja.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Sure, but I think that's a rounding error.
Hmm, I see.
I'm concerned that this plan is going to skip straight to us getting deployed or something, without the chance to refine our plans and present them to Asuma. Could we, like... somehow avoid this?
- Location
- Yes.
My opinion is that Asuma will not deploy Hazou due to our 1) severe injuries; 2) backline contributions in Sealing and strategy; and 3) the high liability of us getting captured/killed thus depriving Leaf of our so-crazy-it-works strategy and related stuff like the Dog Scroll.
That's if their speed is low, and they can't do it fast enough. If they have VD 20 we're in trouble with just one refiller
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I suppose so.
That doesn't really address my concern, which is that we won't be able to make potentially strategy-altering corrections before Asuma kicks the war off.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Alright, that makes the whole thing take 30 minutes. Tricky.
Still 15 minutes for 50 jounin-level summons, which is, IIRC, the entire Leaf jounin population before all the disasters.
- Location
- Yes.
Right...um...what are those strategic corrections? From my understanding of the thread's plans, we've mostly been concerned with creating tactical advantages like luring a contingent of Rock's troops into an ambush, but I haven't really noticed anything along the lines of "what are Leaf's goals?" beyond agreeing with Asuma's plan to unmake all of Rock.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Currently have the XP to get Noburi VD up to 45. Does that change the math significantly?
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
The way he will be using the (other) Summoners. If he sends them off on missions now, and then it turns out the Summoning Army plan is workable and he has to somehow call them back, that'd be inconvenient. Not to mention that he might send Mari/Kei off, whom we're supposed to sanity-check our ideas with.
Not really, still rounds up to 7 rounds.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Leaf goals right now are prety clear, genocide.
Leaf current strategy is hazo's resource denial plan.
Meaning they probably will scout out the area.
Right now we should offer hinata seals to make the hyuga punishment squad more efective (macerators filled wit molten slag as a anti personel granade sounds promissing).
And investigate the frontier with tunder to see if it isnt a coordinated assault (there no such thing a too paranoid)
Leaf current strategy is hazo's resource denial plan.
Meaning they probably will scout out the area.
Right now we should offer hinata seals to make the hyuga punishment squad more efective (macerators filled wit molten slag as a anti personel granade sounds promissing).
And investigate the frontier with tunder to see if it isnt a coordinated assault (there no such thing a too paranoid)
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
So this is all in one place:
Core assumptions:
How long would transferring all that chakra to the battlefield take? Assuming an average ninja has 20 CR, that means we need ~155 ninja (actually about 170, see below) as chakra batteries. The cycle is as follows (assuming Asuma has 50 CR, and the other Wakahisa could drain about as fast as Noburi):
This is happening in parallel with the Summonings proper, so we're not summing the 11 and 38 minutes up, but taking the maximum of these numbers.
Results:
The Summon Army Logistics
Spreadsheet.Core assumptions:
- The stats of other Summoners, including the assumption that they all know (or could quickly learn) SC at least up to level 10.
- The goal is to get 105 jounin-level Summons across 7 Summoners: Noburi, Kei, Tsunade, Orochimaru, Ruri, Aiko, Neji.
- Average jounin-level Summon costs 200 CP.
- Noburi, inefficiently, would require 600 CP to summon, but I'm assuming we're still using him because we want the best Summons of every clan.
- A ninja wouldn't want to drink more than 2 liters of water before combat, and would want to be at full chakra capacity.
- A ninja at full chakra capacity could summon CR*10/200 Summons at once, rounded down. (E. g., Kei could summon 1 at CR 27.)
- If a ninja is willing to drink 4 half-liter water bottles, they could summon four times more Summons than their base capacity allows and be left at full CP afterwards. (So original!Kei could summon 4 on her own.)
- A ninja could absorb Resolve - 3*(SC AB - 2)-20-1-6 clone-hours per day without taking consequences, which translates to the same number of one-hour clones.
- -6 is a safety margin to avoid Mild Consequences, in case Fudge Dice roll -6. This safety margin might have to be ignored for those with low Resolve (e. g., Neji in the spreadsheet).
- A ninja could create at most (CR*10-150)/26 clones per Mass Shadow Clone cast, rounded down, with all of the resulting instances having at least 1 CP. (E. g., Kei could create (270-150)/26 = 4 clones at once, with 20 CP distributed across them + original.)
- Once a Shadow Clone is created, it could be restored to full chakra capacity by drinking chakra water. Once popped, all of that chakra would be transferred to the original ninja. (E. g., Kei has 4 CP, a Snowflake has 4 CP. The latter drinks water containing 270-4-4 = 262 CP, unmakes herself, and Kei is restored to full 270 CP.)
- How many times would one ninja need to be fully refilled to summon 15 jounin-level Summons? 15 divided by the maximum number of Summons they could summon at one full capacity, rounded up. Three of these refills would be done by chakra water directly, the rest by creating a Shadow Clone, having it drink water, and reintegrating it. (E. g., Kei could summon only 1 Summon at once, so she needs 15 refills. She drinks chakra water thrice, and integrates 12 Snowflakes for the rest. Her ability to withstand clone sickness allows this.)
- How many times would that ninja need to cast Mass Shadow Clone? The number of clones they need divided by the maximum number of clones they could create in one cast, rounded up. (Kei needs to cast MSC thrice.)
- The total chakra expenditure on MSC casts is given by 25 * number_of_clones + 150 * number_of_casts.
- How many times would one ninja plus their clones cast Summoning? The total number of Summons they need to summon divided by the number of Summons they could summon at once, rounded up. (Kei needs to summon 15, and she or Snowflake could summon 1 at once. That means they collectively need to cast Summoning 15 times.)
- After each Summoning cast, the ninja (or their clone) would need to drink chakra water, and they'll want to be topped up afterwards. So the number of chakra-drinks is the number of Summoning casts plus one.
- Casting MSC, casting Summoning, and drinking chakra water all take one Full Round's worth of time, or 3 seconds.
How long would transferring all that chakra to the battlefield take? Assuming an average ninja has 20 CR, that means we need ~155 ninja (actually about 170, see below) as chakra batteries. The cycle is as follows (assuming Asuma has 50 CR, and the other Wakahisa could drain about as fast as Noburi):
- Yasuji (or Wataru, or whoever) transfers chakra to Asuma while Noburi transfers chakra to some Summoner. This is assumed to happen simultaneously, and takes one Full Round.
- Asuma and Noburi reverse-summon, which costs 15 and 45 CP, respectively, and takes one Full Round. Simultaneously, Yasuji starts draining 500 CP from the chakra batteries, which will take him 7 Full Rounds.
- Noburi drains Asuma's chakra, which takes 7 Full Rounds (as Noburi could drain 2*VD = 80 CP per round). For efficiency reasons, he then waits while Asuma returns to Leaf and gets re-filled twice, costing 30 more CP and taking 17 Full Rounds.
- Note: Noburi drains 485, 485, and 280 CP from Asuma. The first two take 7 rounds, the latter only 4.
- Noburi and Asuma unsummon, taking one Full Round.
This is happening in parallel with the Summonings proper, so we're not summing the 11 and 38 minutes up, but taking the maximum of these numbers.
Results:
- Summoning 105 Summons requires 170 chakra batteries and ~38 minutes.
- If Noburi only transfers chakra instead of summoning, with the 6 remaining Summoners summoning 17 Summons each, we'll need ~6000 CP less. This means 23 cycles instead of 28, and only 31 minutes to get 102 Summons.
- If we downsize to 50 jounin-level Summons instead of 100, and don't involve Noburi in summonings, we'll need half that time, i. e. ~16 minutes. 50 jounin is, if I recall correctly, the number of jounin Leaf had at the start of the quest, so this is still a formidable force.
- But! What if all the chakra batteries are in the field with the Summoners (or, conversely, if the Summoners are in Leaf), making the Seventh Path pipeline unnecessary? This would mean that the chakra is transferred to the Summoners as fast as Noburi could drain it, with no losses, requiring only 31 000/80 = 388 Full Rounds, or ~20 minutes for the first option (105 Summons, Noburi summons too).
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I don't want the ninja in hostile territory without chakra, esp not if they're accompanying the assault team. They should leave themselves full on chakra.
SCs can't summon, as you need to bleed to do so, and anything that would cause them to bleed will pop the clone.
These steps should be repeated until Noburi is full on chakra. Since every time he visits the 7th path it costs 45 cp. It also costs Asuma 15 cp for each visit. I'd model him with 50 CR and Tsunade/Oro with 60 CR