ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Jiraiya is this universes Tony Stark.
"Even Dead, I'm the Hero"
"Even Dead, I'm the Hero"
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
It's "jiraya's awesome world saving seal" too much of an OPSEC risk? Cause if not we can absolutely push this to be the name of the modified version.
- Location
- NY
Do we know that light hurts yet? I guess the train of logic would be "looking at the sun hurts eyes -> looking at sun on brighter days hurts eyes more -> what if we could focus that energy?"
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
That and we already saw a dog use the sun as artillery.
- Location
- Yes.
I am confused by this, can you explain? How has Keiko failed to realize that Mari has changed since the swamp, what evidence does Hazou have that makes him come to this conclusion?
I don't think this plan works with the timeline, Isan is still 6 days behind Leaf. Also I am firmly of the opinion that we should be focusing on the mission (which is not going well) and not micromanaging Keiko's personal relationships.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This mission has a very low chance of success without Mari, and this plan only takes up like a few hours, presumably the conversation would happen during their normal check-in time and the next Isan plan will resume after Keiko returns
- Location
- Yes.
Oh also we should bring hot water in storage seals, so the Isan team doesn't have to worry about heating up the water.
Edit: OTOH, Keiko might do a Hana.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Mari the Heartbreaker was a monster. She used and manipulated people without a second thought and frequently in fairly cruel ways.
Mari right before Swamp separated children from their parents and broke up who knows how many loving relationships ultimately ending in the death of all but four of those people. That she did this to give them a chance to live out from under the Yagura's thumb, and we don't know exactly what her selection criteria looked like, but presumably she maximized effectiveness instead of minimizing the trauma to folks if/when they found out. We also don't know if she was ever planning on telling them what she did.
Mari presently is spending time thinking about other people's agency, who she, herself, is, and has taken a bunch of actions which suggest, to me, that she's trying hard to protect her family without going back to being the Heartbreaker.
I feel like I can draw a line between these three data points and that the slope represents ongoing change. (This is something I will clarify in the plan when I have a few minutes - wording suggestions are welcome.)
The plan would take place prior to the current update, as soon after their fight as is possible. Velorien confirmed that this is kosher and we won't be punished for doing so.
I don't view this as micromanaging Keiko's interpersonal relationships. We (the players) have her on-record as committing to vengeance and planning to actively avoid the influence of anyone who could be a moderating influence. That is a significant problem for the mission. Hazo's role as clan head is to make sure that missions the clan undertakes go well. If two people assigned to developed an issue in the middle of a mission which prevented them from working well together, then it wouldn't be micromanagement to pull one or both of them aside and tell them that the basis of their dispute was founded in a skewed perspective, it would be leadership.
I will also register that Keiko is not very good at hiding her emotions and Hazo would certainly notice that something is up and comment on it. Managing that interaction seems wise.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
did you forget what the gift was? They should be able to heat the water themselves with the hot tub seals we made.
The hot-air seals were made specifically for Mari. I think the Nara already had air puffers so all we did was make the air warmer and emerge a bit further from the seal so it could be placed on the outside of the bathtub.
- Location
- Yes.
OK, so 1) What evidence does Hazou have of Mari thinking about other people's agency, and 2) Why is this stuff that Keiko appears to have missed?
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
1: Projection and Mari's known issues.
2: Keiko.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Updated the Mari section.
I think that Keiko is treating Mari like she's the same person who abducted them from Mist, and failing to recognize that that Mari as she is now would (I believe) navigate that situation at least a little differently. The way she is thinking of Mari is 'heartless monster, fooled everyone into believing she is not a vile manipulator'. I suspect that if Keiko and Hana - who I believe most would agree has a poor model of Mari - talked about Mari, they would largely agree, which indicates that Keiko's model of Mari is broken, too.
I also think that the fact that people can and do change is something that Keiko has broadly failed to recognize, and is starting to recognize - specifically, she realized that she'd changed and no longer needed to passively enact other people's plans. I think that this puts her in a receptive frame of mind to what I want to say.
I'm not really clear what you're saying, here. Are you agreeing with me?
- What Mari did was monstrous. Her failure to acknowledge her actions/their consequences is reprehensible.
- Many of Mari's actions since have been kind, loving, genuine - not manipulations.
- The realization: people change.
- None of us are the same since the swamp.
- You have changed. Mari has changed/is changing.
- Mari has gone from being the Heartbreaker to who she is now, and is still changing.
- You do not appear to have updated your conclusions based on new information.
The evidence is Hazo talking to her about her self-image, her manipulations, and everything they've discussed since she's 'recovered' from Hana.
I think that Keiko is treating Mari like she's the same person who abducted them from Mist, and failing to recognize that that Mari as she is now would (I believe) navigate that situation at least a little differently. The way she is thinking of Mari is 'heartless monster, fooled everyone into believing she is not a vile manipulator'. I suspect that if Keiko and Hana - who I believe most would agree has a poor model of Mari - talked about Mari, they would largely agree, which indicates that Keiko's model of Mari is broken, too.
I also think that the fact that people can and do change is something that Keiko has broadly failed to recognize, and is starting to recognize - specifically, she realized that she'd changed and no longer needed to passively enact other people's plans. I think that this puts her in a receptive frame of mind to what I want to say.
I'm not really clear what you're saying, here. Are you agreeing with me?
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Keiko just wants an apology. No amount of changes Mari did will do anything. Mari just needs to step up and apologize.
- Location
- Yes.
My model of Keiko is that she recognizes that Mari has changed, but believes that because she did change she is no longer the Heartbreaker and is therefore not obligated to carry the sins of her past (as the Heartbreaker). Which Keiko disagrees with, since she a) thinks that Mari still has some of the Heartbreaker left in her and b) thinks that Mari is still responsible for her actions taken as the Heartbreaker. I don't think that Keiko sees Mari as still-being-the-Heartbreaker, at least not fully which seems to be implied in the plan.
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
He asked why Hazou would think Mari has the stated issues and why Keiko didn't notice. I gave answers that explained why. Yes I agreed with you.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
IMO the section you quoted supports my conclusions. Keiko says that Mari wishes she wasn't the Heartbreaker anymore. To me, that scans as Keiko saying, 'you are still her in large part'. I see very little in what she said there which leads me to believe that Keiko believes Mari has significantly changed.
My intention with the sections of the plan that say that Mari is culpable and that there must be restitution/acknowledgement are intended to indicate that we agree with Keiko that she needs to make it right. I agree that Mari is still responsible. However, I think that Keiko is modelling Mari as desperately attempting to flee her past, as opposed to someone who is healing and changing who, with some prompting, would probably be pretty on board to make significant attempts to mend that particular fence.
I also think that the way that Keiko is thinking makes it pretty obvious that she's pre-committing to ignoring anything Mari does on the basis that, under pressure, she'll default to manipulation. I think a big part of why Keiko would view any genuine attempt at reconciliation as such is both because she doesn't think Mari has changed and because she doesn't think Mari can change. I don't know if Mari has finished changing in this regard, but I think she's trying.
What I mean to imply in the plan is that Keiko still sees Mari not as the Heartbreaker, but as Mari-in-the-swamp. Certainly not Mari-who-is-in-the-process-of-changing. (A lot of that is because Mari hasn't really talked to anyone, other than Hazo, about how she's changing, and I think it would be a bad idea to talk to Keiko about Mari's innermost thoughts etc. after Keiko has demonstrated that she's quite willing to punch Mari well below the belt.) I'll try to think about how to make this a little clearer.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I read it as "You want to prove you are not the Heartbreaker because if you are not the Heartbreaker you aren't responsible for her actions." Which isn't really committing to a conclusion either way, Keiko is just talking about what Mari wants not what Keiko thinks. It could be argued Keiko doesn't even care if she is still the Heartbreaker one way or another, she's responsible either way.
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- Location
- Liverpool
I believe faflec's interpretation is the correct one, and I trust their judgement.
[X] faflec
[X] faflec
- Location
- Yes.
[Χ] Isan Plan: Armageddon Initiative
Okay, not to be a negative nelly, but what if Keiko listens to this, shrugs, and doesn't change her mind? It's not all that convincing to me. Let alone Keiko, who was actually hurt by Mari. So what if Mari changed? So what if she has had some genuine moments of love? She still hasn't changed enough to make amends to Keiko unprompted. She can genuinely love the team and still act monstrously towards them.
I'd really like to see some recognition that we might fail to fix this. Our track record managing Mari and Keiko's outbursts is mixed at best. If Keiko refuses to work with Mari I think we should probably do something like roll over on our single working knee and beg her to do it. I don't really have any suggestions beyond that. I find Keiko's reactions difficult to predict.
TBH what Keiko should have done was tell us she couldn't work with Mari in the first place. Now that they're in Isan she kind of needs to do this. We've been beating our heads against her tendency to bottle up her emotions and freak out for a long time, and IMO we indulged her too much when she torpedoed the Pangolin trade deal. She's just repeated history here by endangering a mission critical to Leaf's security. I don't particularly want to tell her any of this, but I'm pretty fed up with it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I am not sure I agree with all of this but it is good food for thought
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
tl;dr I believe Keiko has a huge amount of trauma she refuses to acknowledge. The only answer I know to trauma is kindness and love. When you find yourself incapable of those things, you excuse yourself for however long you need because if you can't do those things, you're not helping the situation.
If what we have to say isn't good enough for Keiko then we rely on her professionalism and do our best to reach out to Mari and get her through the mission.
Then we reach out to Shikamaru and let him know that Keiko took action which she knew would harm if not incapacitate a Goketsu shinobi and tell him that while we aren't taking it to the Hokage, it needs to be handled.
After the mission, we do our best to reconcile Keiko and Mari. If Keiko rejects this, then we maintain as much of a relationship as possible with her while comforting and supporting Mari. If she's actively hostile, then we take steps to protect Mari and our other clan members from that.
If Keiko refuses to work with Mari then she's endangering a mission and we kick it to Shikamaru or the Hokage. I might see if I can find wordcount for a letter to Mari, but making it work in a logically-coherent manner is difficult, given that we'd have to write it in front of Keiko and have her deliver it. I don't think that 'if fails, beg' is a good idea. I'm reasonably confident that my plan will have at least some impact, and I think in this case it's worth rolling the dice.
That Keiko is ridiculously, unfathomably emotionally stunted is abundantly clear, and intensely frustrating. She needs to do a lot of work on herself, and that would need to start with her acknowledging said issues - which she refuses to do on any sort of level. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. The only thing that I think we can do to make the water appealing is to be loving, supportive, and kind, but after a certain point you can't light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm and I think we might be getting there.
All of this is IMO and not necessarily a basis for writing future plans.
If what we have to say isn't good enough for Keiko then we rely on her professionalism and do our best to reach out to Mari and get her through the mission.
Then we reach out to Shikamaru and let him know that Keiko took action which she knew would harm if not incapacitate a Goketsu shinobi and tell him that while we aren't taking it to the Hokage, it needs to be handled.
After the mission, we do our best to reconcile Keiko and Mari. If Keiko rejects this, then we maintain as much of a relationship as possible with her while comforting and supporting Mari. If she's actively hostile, then we take steps to protect Mari and our other clan members from that.
If Keiko refuses to work with Mari then she's endangering a mission and we kick it to Shikamaru or the Hokage. I might see if I can find wordcount for a letter to Mari, but making it work in a logically-coherent manner is difficult, given that we'd have to write it in front of Keiko and have her deliver it. I don't think that 'if fails, beg' is a good idea. I'm reasonably confident that my plan will have at least some impact, and I think in this case it's worth rolling the dice.
That Keiko is ridiculously, unfathomably emotionally stunted is abundantly clear, and intensely frustrating. She needs to do a lot of work on herself, and that would need to start with her acknowledging said issues - which she refuses to do on any sort of level. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. The only thing that I think we can do to make the water appealing is to be loving, supportive, and kind, but after a certain point you can't light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm and I think we might be getting there.
All of this is IMO and not necessarily a basis for writing future plans.
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