Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Immortal Lurker · May 10, 2021

eaglejarl said:
"The point of a sink is that it isn't connected to anything," Hazō resumed. "We don't see anything like that. There's a whole bunch of elements in this thing that none of us recognize, but they're all connected. Kagome-sensei is theorizing that they aren't sinks, they're stabilizers. They actually absorb the leaked chakra, clean it, and put it back into the system."

Kiba said:
As a begineer electronic hobbyist, it kinda sounds like electrical engineering.

Also, I am an almost complete noob, so I am pretty sure it isn't anything like electrical egnineering.

For whatever a BS in Electrical Engineering is worth, I can assure you your instincts are right. My very first thought was "Ooh! Its a capacitor! Finally, a chance to use my degree! Its been so long." It might also be an inductor, or a properly constructed low pass filter that uses both.

...reading it again, its absorbing leaked chakra. If there is anything in electrical engineering for absorbing current that isn't flowing properly along the circuit, they don't teach it to undergrads.

If it is stabilizing flow, no matter where it gets it from, that does imply something like a capacitor or an inductor. We might need a protection diode. See the second image here. Basically, any change in current through an inductor causes a voltage that opposes that change. If the flow of current suddenly changes (usually by someone opening a switch), this can produce massive voltages that break components or cause sparks. The protection diode allows the inductor to get its input current from its output current if it really, really, needs to.

I would have to see the circuit diagram to say if that was needed, or viable. Not all filters can benefit from that sort of protection, its really just inductors. Although thats based on the fact that a capacitor will draw current in response to a change in voltage, and there will be some resistance elsewhere in the circuit that should prevent the voltage from changing too rapidly. Chakra flows may not have resistance, or voltage.

So help me, if the QMs assign electrical engineering homework as part of the quest, I will never forget it.

eaglejarl said:
"P-pity th-there isn't s-some w-way to add more s-stabilizers, or u-use up the ch-chakra. That c-could p-prevent the f-failure, r-right?"

"Sir, I would like to honor my sealing student."

"Oh? How?"

"Well, I want his face carved on the mountain right below yours, but I will settle for a parade."

RandomOTP · May 10, 2021

[X] Action Plan: The First and Last Resort is Open and Honest Communication

FaintlySorcerous said:
To reiterate: Mari had a responsibility to bring this up, and failed.

As clan head, we must protect Mari from serious harm.

May want to alter the wording to be "as the Goketsu Clan head, it's my job to protect the both of you, even from each other. As your brother, comrade in arms, Teammate in Uplift, fellow foreigner to Leaf, and someone who loves you more than words can know, I'd like to help the two of you mend bridges. I don't want it to go back to the way things were, since obviously the previous status quo had repressed feelings of hurt and betrayal."

You may also want Keiko to ask what she wants. An apology, obviously (Kieko's deserving of one). But, beyond that, what could Mari possibly do to make amends that she hasn't already done? Penance? She tried to sacrifice herself for you. Remorse? Mari's soul is bleeding and guilt-ridden, she's changed far beyond the Heartbreaker that Mist knew, and she's continuing to change into a better person. What form should Mari's atonement take? Sacrifice? Pain? Hurt? That's not Justice, Keiko. That's Vengeance. That's beginning the cycle of pain and hurt anew.

Edit: Maybe CCnJ the fact that we're not accusatory or condemning Keiko, merely trying to understand her perspective because it feels like Keiko hasn't updated her mental model of Mari

FaintlySorcerous · May 10, 2021

RandomOTP said:
[X] Action Plan: The First and Last Resort is Open and Honest Communication

May want to alter the wording to be "as the Goketsu Clan head, it's my job to protect the both of you, even from each other. As your brother, comrade in arms, Teammate in Uplift, fellow foreigner to Leaf, and someone who loves you more than words can know, I'd like to help the two of you mend bridges. I don't want it to go back to the way things were, since obviously the previous status quo had repressed feelings of hurt and betrayal."

You may also want Keiko to ask what she wants. An apology, obviously (Kieko's deserving of one). But, beyond that, what could Mari possibly do to make amends that she hasn't already done? Penance? She tried to sacrifice herself for you. Remorse? Mari's soul is bleeding and guilt-ridden, she's changed far beyond the Heartbreaker that Mist knew, and she's continuing to change into a better person. What form should Mari's atonement take? Sacrifice? Pain? Hurt? That's not Justice, Keiko. That's Vengeance. That's beginning the cycle of pain and hurt anew.

Edit: Maybe CCnJ the fact that we're not accusatory or condemning Keiko, merely trying to understand her perspective because it feels like Keiko hasn't updated her mental model of Mari

These are good points and I'll incorporate them.

RandomOTP · May 10, 2021

AMI: [distances herself from Keiko when Keiko needs her the most, manipulates Keiko for her own good, deprives her sister of a family in Mist]

KEIKO: "You have done nothing wrong and I love you."

MARI: [takes Keiko away from Yagura's Mist, takes Keiko and her team away from Swamp's massacre, manipulates the OG Uplift squad for their own good, works to better all of them as ninja and, further, as people, consciously and unconsciously makes a Found Family, becomes a better person due to the OG Uplift squad's influence on her, tries to sacrifice herself for their benefit, uses her social prowess to leverage their family to have a new home in Leaf twice, after Hazou fucks it up the first time]

KEIKO: "What you have done is unforgivable and I hate you."

faflec · May 10, 2021

RandomOTP said:
uses her social prowess to leverage their family to have a new home in Leaf twice, after Hazou fucks it up the first time]

I know this is an uncharitable opinion but it's still really fuckin' funny.

Sir Stompy · May 10, 2021

RandomOTP said:
takes Keiko away from Mist

RandomOTP said:
What you have done is unforgivable and I hate you.

Actually seems pretty reasonable to me. This is genuinely something that I would consider unforgivable if someone did it to me.

I don't particularly think Keiko's idealization of Ami is healthy or within 2 standard deviations of normal human behavior, but Keiko really likes being around Ami and you gotta respect other people's preferences.

Kiba · May 10, 2021

Mari's still a kidnapper. She literally napped kids to be her little foot soldiers.

Eisenhelm · May 10, 2021

RandomOTP said:
[X] Action Plan: The First and Last Resort is Open and Honest Communication

May want to alter the wording to be "as the Goketsu Clan head, it's my job to protect the both of you, even from each other. As your brother, comrade in arms, Teammate in Uplift, fellow foreigner to Leaf, and someone who loves you more than words can know, I'd like to help the two of you mend bridges. I don't want it to go back to the way things were, since obviously the previous status quo had repressed feelings of hurt and betrayal."

You may also want Keiko to ask what she wants. An apology, obviously (Kieko's deserving of one). But, beyond that, what could Mari possibly do to make amends that she hasn't already done? Penance? She tried to sacrifice herself for you. Remorse? Mari's soul is bleeding and guilt-ridden, she's changed far beyond the Heartbreaker that Mist knew, and she's continuing to change into a better person. What form should Mari's atonement take? Sacrifice? Pain? Hurt? That's not Justice, Keiko. That's Vengeance. That's beginning the cycle of pain and hurt anew.

Edit: Maybe CCnJ the fact that we're not accusatory or condemning Keiko, merely trying to understand her perspective because it feels like Keiko hasn't updated her mental model of Mari

as established whit Akane's situation, Hazou is not the best person to ask about forgiveness. when he trusts someone he doesn't mind little errors or slights and will put his life in their hand without a second thought. when he holds a grudge is to the (other parties) death. the middle ground is always new faces, reconciliation, or uneasy alliances that he ratter didn't have to deal whit.
I believe that the idea of wanting to separate yourself from a person that you still love is alien to him. same as to forgive someone who has done something truly monstrous.
so the best way (that he can manage) to deal whit Keiko is to listen to her and most importantly, make Keiko ask herself those questions rather than do it ourselves.

Shrooms · May 10, 2021

Kiba said:
Mari's still a kidnapper. She literally napped kids to be her little foot soldiers.

She also kidnapped them from the most despotic village in a world of despots in the hopes of making something better. Still selfish and a bad thing but it's not like she was ripping people from paradise over here lmao

Let's not forget she was choosing the undesirables, who are people who very likely would have been purged from Yagura's Mist had they not left. She condemned many to death, but they also likely would've died within a few years anyways after coming down with a bad case of being a ninja, with an extra dose of being someone Yagura doesn't like

TigerBoyd · May 10, 2021

Ok, but should we have team Isan stay there to continue that plan, or summon them over in order to help deal with the existential threat? Maybe have them say "We'll be back in few days, we have some errands" or something. They already have a few days to continue negotiating due to the difference of time.

Sir Stompy · May 10, 2021

Shrooms said:
She also kidnapped them from the most despotic village in a world of despots in the hopes of making something better. Still selfish and a bad thing but it's not like she was ripping people from paradise over here lmao

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her motivation primarily that she knew Yagura had it out for her and it was a matter of time before he had her killed or sent on a suicide mission? Then she planted the idea for a village in Shikigami's head because she didn't want to rough it camping.

EDIT: I also thought the "suicide mission" and "undesirables" parts were bullshit. IIRC She picked Hazou over his cousin Shin because she used to idolize Hana, which implies she more or less could choose who she wanted.

Shrooms · May 10, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her motivation primarily that she knew Yagura had it out for her and it was a matter of time before he had her killed or sent on a suicide mission? Then she planted the idea for a village in Shikigami's head because she didn't want to rough it camping.

I don't even think Mari was afraid of being killed by Yagura, she just couldn't stand the thought of the way he was grinding her up into nothingness. She was really becoming the perfect ninja, an unquestioning tool that performs their tasks emotionlessly.

I'm not sure the Shikigami thing is canon or not, Zabuza's sidekick could've told it that way to make the story dramatic. He seemed to genuinely believe in it, and also, genjutsu isn't like mind control or whatever

FaintlySorcerous · May 10, 2021

TigerBoyd said:
Ok, but should we have team Isan stay there to continue that plan, or summon them over in order to help deal with the existential threat? Maybe have them say "We'll be back in few days, we have some errands" or something. They already have a few days to continue negotiating due to the difference of time.

We can't bring the Isan team home - logistically or politically. If we can manage to meet on the 7th Path, they can be at the meeting, but I don't think that there's a place where representatives of the Turtles/Snakes/Slugs/Monkeys/Pangolins/Dogs/Toads/Condors are all physically in the same place on the Seventh Path.

And, specifically, if we want the Spiders at the meeting, that will definitely be impossible.

I think that leaving for a few days would sink any chance of success in negotiations. It's already going, generously, so-so, and 'yes we're assigned diplomats but we need to return to our home country to go take care of something, no we can't explain what it is', is not a great look. At any rate, it gives the High Priest a lot of opportunity to make political hay.

RandomOTP · May 10, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
Actually seems pretty reasonable to me. This is genuinely something that I would consider unforgivable if someone did it to me.

I don't particularly think Keiko's idealization of Ami is healthy or within 3 standard deviations of normal human behavior, but Keiko really likes being around Ami and you gotta respect other people's preferences.

Oh, totally. It's a horrible abuse of another's agency and an abuse of power. I was just pointing out that Ami and Heartbreaker-Mari aren't all that different (Ami was trained by the Heartbreaker, after all), but Keiko seems to condemn Mari while politely ignoring the injustices inflicted upon her by Ami. Of course, who knows what's been said offscreen or what trauma bond the two sisters may share.

Kiba said:
Mari's still a kidnapper. She literally napped kids to be her little foot soldiers.

Eh, I'd argue that Heartbreaker-Mari, who couldn't exist as the Heartbreaker anymore, was the kidnapper.

Between her personal growth and TLitF, Mari's a different person than who she was at the start of the quest. If Heartbreaker-Mari and Mama-Bear-Mari are two different people (and I'd argue that they are), then why punish one for the sins of the other? And if Mama-Bear-Mari is guilty of the Heartbreaker's wrongs, then what form should justice take? Punishments for wrongs are supposed to be reformative in nature, right? Well, Mari already has changed and is still actively growing into a better person (Mari even admits it herself during her latest interlude, that she neglected to hone her ninja skills in favor of "merely growing as a person").

Sir Stompy · May 10, 2021

Shrooms said:
I don't even think Mari was afraid of being killed by Yagura, she just couldn't stand the thought of the way he was grinding her up into nothingness. She was really becoming the perfect ninja, an unquestioning tool that performs their tasks emotionlessly.

I'm actually of the opinion that that's worse since Yagura didn't even have it out for her personally. She could have just gone missing if she couldn't take it. I realize that's a tough choice, but living in the EN kinda sucks for everyone.

Eisenhelm · May 10, 2021

i would like to know from mary is: if you were the person that you are today back when you chose to join chikigami, would you do that again?
would she take failure kids from their village to the wilds again?.

What would the Mari that is has shown herself between the craking mask of the heartbreaker do way back in mist

The last time she had a mental collapse she didn't ask herself this (to our knowledge), because otherwise she would have either apologize or left and it's important because this is how you know if she has changed.

Shrooms · May 10, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
She could have just gone missing if she couldn't take it.

She did lol

Sir Stompy said:
EDIT: I also thought the "suicide mission" and "undesirables" parts were bullshit. IIRC She picked Hazou over his cousin Shin because she used to idolize Hana, which implies she more or less could choose who she wanted.

I think she could choose whoever she wanted, and she chose the undesirables on purpose for a few reasons.
1: The fact that they don't align with Yagura means that they could more easily be molded to her vision.
2: They were fucked anyways. The reason I think this is her behavior with the initially very suicidal Keiko. I think she convinced herself it was okay to bring them with her because they'd be killed regardless. Hazou's inquisitive and rebellious nature would not have gone over well in Mist. We joke about how treasonous to Leaf he is but if he even joked about it in Mist, he would be executed. The Kurosawa wouldn't defend him and his dad was dead, so alienating one Jounin who raised a rebellious kid isn't the end of the world. Hell, knock some sense into her too for raising someone that doesn't fit ~~Yagura's~~ Mist's image.

Sir Stompy · May 10, 2021

Shrooms said:
She did lol

I think she could choose whoever she wanted, and she chose the undesirables on purpose for a few reasons.
1: The fact that they don't align with Yagura means that they could more easily be molded to her vision.
2: They were fucked anyways. The reason I think this is her behavior with the initially very suicidal Keiko. I think she convinced herself it was okay to bring them with her because they'd be killed regardless. Hazou's inquisitive and rebellious nature would not have gone over well in Mist. We joke about how treasonous to Leaf he is but if he even joked about it in Mist, he would be executed. The Kurosawa wouldn't defend him and his dad was dead, so alienating one Jounin who raised a rebellious kid isn't the end of the world. Hell, knock some sense into her too for raising someone that doesn't fit ~~Yagura's~~ Mist's image.

I meant go missing on your own and don't get 26 out of the 29 other ninja killed.

Keiko was suicidal because of the separation from Ami, no? That was my reading of the situation anyway. I think she and Noburi had as good a chance as any other clan ninja back in Mist.

I agree about Hazou getting himself killed, poor kid had no chance. However, given Mari's thought process on choosing him over Shin I don't think she knew that at the time.

FaintlySorcerous · May 10, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
Keiko was suicidal because of the separation from Ami, no? That was my reading of the situation anyway. I think she and Noburi had as good a chance as any other clan ninja back in Mist.

I thought that while Ami's absence was a factor, Keiko's suicidality was largely due to her self-esteem issues and honestly she might have eaten a shuriken if she'd been around her family much longer.

I think Keiko had worse-than-average chances and Noburi was in a similar place given that he was viewed as a disappointment relative to his dead brother. Lacking a support system is bad for you and deadly in contexts where performing at the peak of your ability is all that stands between you and death.

Shrooms · May 10, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
I meant go missing on your own and don't get 26 out of the 30 other ninja killed.

Sounds like pretty standard ninja survival rate to me lol

Sir Stompy said:
Keiko was suicidal because of the separation from Ami, no? That was my reading of the situation anyway. I think she and Noburi had as good a chance as any other clan ninja back in Mist.

That's likely what drove her to the edge, but she has made it clear she was very unhappy in Mist. I mean for gods sake look at how emotionally stunted she is, and how low of an opinion she has of herself. Mari didn't do that shit, that was Yagura's Mist and the assholes in the Mori clan. Without Ami she'd probably have already killed herself

Sir Stompy said:
However, given Mari's thought process on choosing him over Shin I don't think she knew that at the time.

It was both Mari's job and expertise to know things like that. She knew. Perhaps it wasn't her primary motivator but there is a 0% chance she didn't know about what Hazou was like.

Eisenhelm · May 10, 2021

Shrooms said:
She did lol

I think she could choose whoever she wanted, and she chose the undesirables on purpose for a few reasons.
1: The fact that they don't align with Yagura means that they could more easily be molded to her vision.
2: They were fucked anyways. The reason I think this is her behavior with the initially very suicidal Keiko. I think she convinced herself it was okay to bring them with her because they'd be killed regardless. Hazou's inquisitive and rebellious nature would not have gone over well in Mist. We joke about how treasonous to Leaf he is but if he even joked about it in Mist, he would be executed. The Kurosawa wouldn't defend him and his dad was dead, so alienating one Jounin who raised a rebellious kid isn't the end of the world. Hell, knock some sense into her too for raising someone that doesn't fit ~~Yagura's~~ Mist's image.

keiko would be way more miserable in Yagura's mist (the reason yagura is dead, is partially our fault) her parents would disown her until the moment Ami died, not that she would live much longer beyond that.
Hazo was a dead man walking since his mother decided to disobey a voting clan.
the only one that has grounds to say they would be fine in mist is Noburi, but all three (five if we count the ones we got along the way) are in their element in Leaf.
Noburi married and is a medical prodigy (again he would likely has this in mist too) and as a family that loves him
Hazou is a clan head, is in a relationship whit another clan head, is a respected sealmaster, and can work to archieve his dreams ~~of world domination~~, dreams he didn't know he had until he fucked off from Yagura's regime.
keiko is second in command of one of the most powerful clan, nobody but two people can tell her what to do, and has international recognition and a family that loves her and puts up whit her messing around in the middle of an important operation.

Keiko and Hazou had nothing to lose and won everything. the fact that was Mari was the engine that put this in motion is a blessing.

Halberdier · May 10, 2021

faflec said:
[Χ] Isan Plan: Armageddon Initiative

*Sighs in Asuma at expected but disappointing betrayal*

Eisenhelm said:
keiko would be way more miserable in Yagura's mist (the reason yagura is dead, is partially our fault) her parents would disown her until the moment Ami died, not that she would live much longer beyond that.
Hazo was a dead man walking since his mother decided to disobey a voting clan.
the only one that has grounds to say they would be fine in mist is Noburi, but all three (five if we count the ones we got along the way) are in their element in Leaf.
Noburi married and is a medical prodigy (again he would likely has this in mist too) and as a family that loves him
Hazou is a clan head, is in a relationship whit another clan head, is a respected sealmaster, and can work to archieve his dreams ~~of world domination~~, dreams he didn't know he had until he fucked off from Yagura's regime.
keiko is second in command of one of the most powerful clan, nobody but two people can tell her what to do, and has international recognition and a family that loves her and puts up whit her messing around in the middle of an important operation.

Keiko and Hazou had nothing to lose and won everything. the fact that was Mari was the engine that put this in motion is a blessing.

Hana and Ami would like to have words with you. Though apparently those words are "don't drown us, Goketsu". Funny, that.

But really, things may have turned out better than expected status quo. I think both Hazou and Keiko acknowledge that. But that is a FAR very from saying they had nothing to lose. They lost their most precious loved ones each, and easily could have lost their lives. The fact that things turned out so well is, honestly, in large part due to this being a quest. Not weighing all the realities that could have been worse based on the actual decisions made, not the outcome in those particular reality, is using survivor bias. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "it all worked out, so we're cool" (Hazou) is fine, but saying "what you did is wrong and has never been properly addressed, regardless the eventual outcome" (Keiko) is also very valid.

Also, Keiko throwing the "I can't even meaningfully interact with you because you're too good at manipulation" issue in Mari's face has to hurt. However you feel on this issue, that's a core thing that bothers Mari, that doesn't have a short or medium term solution.

Noumero · May 10, 2021

RandomOTP said:
Punishments for wrongs are supposed to be reformative in nature, right?

Keiko does not necessarily think that.

I'm skeptical of our ability to fix that, at least by the means of saying things at Keiko. As is typical with her, her construction of the situation isn't wrong, she just has a frustratingly fiddly view of it that she is being dramatic and passionate about. Which is to say, her feelings are entirely valid, and the best we could do on that end is acknowledge them.

As far as fixing it goes, maybe we should pass Mari a letter instead.

FaintlySorcerous · May 10, 2021

Halberdier said:
But really, things may have turned out better than expected status quo. I think both Hazou and Keiko acknowledge that. But that is a FAR very from saying they had nothing to lose. They lost their most precious loved ones each, and easily could have lost their lives. The fact that things turned out so well is, honestly, in large part due to this being a quest. Not weighing all the realities that could have been worse based on the actual decisions made, not the outcome in those particular reality, is using survivor bias. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "it all worked out, so we're cool" (Hazou) is fine, but saying "what you did is wrong and has never been properly addressed, regardless the eventual outcome" (Keiko) is also very valid.

More pithily - Mari never asked them. That it worked out is fine, but the wrong here is that she made this decision for them without having gotten anything like consent or having any reason to believe they would, given the choice, delegate that decision to her.

Halberdier said:
Also, Keiko throwing the "I can't even meaningfully interact with you because you're too good at manipulation" issue in Mari's face has to hurt. However you feel on this issue, that's a core thing that bothers Mari, that doesn't have a short or medium term solution.

I hope Mari eventually realizes that this becomes an Other People problem after a certain point. She can only interact with people genuinely and honestly. (Or, y'know, when she wants to and when she isn't securing the economic future of the Goketsu etc.) You can't apologize for things you did unthinkingly. You can apologize for not having stopped and paused and have done the thing consciously, but if you're legitimately doing your best to be genuine and honest and people insist you're lying and that you're a lying liar who lies by habit and you stop and you seriously ask yourself if you're lying and the answer is 'no', you can't do anything more.

Noumero said:
I'm skeptical of our ability to fix that, at least by the means of saying things at Keiko. As is typical with her, her construction of the situation isn't wrong, she just has a frustratingly fiddly view of it that she is being dramatic and passionate about. Which is to say, her feelings are entirely valid, and the best we could do on that end is acknowledge them.

As far as fixing it goes, maybe we should pass Mari a letter instead.

There are two problems here.

Mari never apologized or demonstrated significant remorse to Keiko.

For a whole host of reasons, instead of talking about her feelings with Mari, Keiko contributed to a situation where there would never, ever be anything Mari can do which is good enough.

We can't really fix either of these issues because the solutions (to the underlying issues) is that the folks involved change and mature gradually, over time, and have realizations about themselves and how they interact with other people. We can help create an environment where these things are more likely, though.

I think that the best thing we can do on that front is to do our best to make people feel safe and supported so they can do what they need to in order to grow, and give them gentle nudges towards realizations we think are important.

TigerBoyd · May 10, 2021

FaintlySorcerous said:
We can't bring the Isan team home - logistically or politically. If we can manage to meet on the 7th Path, they can be at the meeting, but I don't think that there's a place where representatives of the Turtles/Snakes/Slugs/Monkeys/Pangolins/Dogs/Toads/Condors are all physically in the same place on the Seventh Path.

And, specifically, if we want the Spiders at the meeting, that will definitely be impossible.

I think that leaving for a few days would sink any chance of success in negotiations. It's already going, generously, so-so, and 'yes we're assigned diplomats but we need to return to our home country to go take care of something, no we can't explain what it is', is not a great look. At any rate, it gives the High Priest a lot of opportunity to make political hay.

I agree that we shouldn't and can't politically. It is technically possible to bring the team back to the Leaf in the same manner that goods can be instantly exchanged(embassy summon can reverse summon person, then summoner brings person with them back with, but I agree we shouldn't. Good points

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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