Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
a) Why is fixing player mistakes in cases where they are completely glaring to you and make for a worse story and a worse player experience on top of that such a bad thing?
b) You don't need to pay attention to the whole thread. Just to the winning vote. Which you have to read, parse and be able to execute in depth anyway in order to write an update.
c) There are plenty of bad consequences to actions where Hazō couldn't have foreseen them. Or where Hazō rolled badly. Or where he simply wasn't able to prevent them despite previous knowledge because he was otherwise occupied or couldn't think of a solution because it wasn't obvious and the hive mind was no help either. Or where he made an at the time acceptable sacrifice that had knock-on consequences. All of those are okay. And yes, of course there will still be people complaining, partially because emotions will be high when stuff is lost and partially because people like to complain. But the complaining will be less and not last as long.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
They teach you this in Good GMing 203, after you take the prereqs where you learn how to seemingly flawlessly weave plot threads together when really you're just good at pulling things out of your ass on the spot, and the class on enforcing "If you ruin the cheer you pay for the beer." and its variants.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Because this whole quest was pretty much based on that premise. Without it, things like us joining Leaf would probably never have happened. Nor would we have dominated the chuunin exams as we did, except if the QMs had simply miscalculated our power curve.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
Save the world, save one girl - what's the difference? You might have all the power you could ever ask for, but some things remain difficult.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
Save the world, save one girl - what's the difference? You might have all the power you could ever ask for, but some things remain difficult.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
Save the world, save one girl - what's the difference? You might have all the power you could ever ask for, but some things remain difficult.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
E: Fixed third link.
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Heleor
^_^
Some of the most interesting posts for me have been the "rolled back" updates - and it seems at least some of the lessons for those stuck (note how the thread reacts when someone submits a youthsuit vote!)
How about writing the failed situation and giving a vote afterwards to roll back that update, officially? It's not very simulationist, but it helps teach, still has consequences, and maybe will allow the thread to take more risks as the consequences are not as game-ending.
- Location
- a
Yeah but if the update got rolled back, don't that mean there is no lasting consequences? Player can just make more bad decision and expect a roll back
Heleor
^_^
This is in response to "lose a chunk of xp" suggestion. There's still mechanical consequence, just less narrative consequence. And in some cases, the thread may choose to keep the 'bad' result as it's more interesting.
Also I wonder if *some* QMs want to write more bad endings.
Edit: you will almost definitely want to limit this option to prevent a free 'pay xp to become an oracle' situation.
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- Location
- United States
This is what usually happens unless another character in the quest (characters have agency remember?) responds in such a way as to prevent us from getting ourselves killed by Hokage.
It would be unsimulationist for someone like Mari, if included, to let Hazou blatantly go forward with a plan that will get him killed and possibly the rest of the clan indicted for treason.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think we have a Stunt for that now, actually.
(Predictions work 60% of the time, all the time.)
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What other people said, but also simply because I do. It's like asking "why do you prefer chocolate to vanilla?" Player agency is the game I want to play.
We have very different definitions of "fat-finger."
Why is it my job? Why shouldn't the players do it?
Also, see original post, where I addressed this in some depth.
Which one is the winning vote before voting closes? Do I need to be running a tally and commenting on the leading plan multiple times per day?
You miss the point. It's not that I want to have bad things happen, it's that I want players to be able to do what they want and reap the rewards, positive or negative. There's no pride in a one-person race, nor in high-risk/high-reward moves if you know the risk is meaningless.
Seriously, though. All you have to do is have Hazō act like you would in the real world and all of your problems go away.
Would I threaten to have someone killed if they didn't cooperate? Maybe Hazō shouldn't do that.
Would I betray my friend's confidence to someone I met a day ago? Maybe Hazō shouldn't do that.
Would I, a Russian spy who just defected, dress like a clown and act weird while being escorted around Washington DC by Secret Service agents? Maybe Hazō shouldn't do that.
See my point?
It's an interesting thought, but it's got the problem of worsening pacing AND removing consequences/fixing player mistakes. Still, I'll talk to the others about it. We almost certainly won't do it, but it's an interesting idea. We would probably want to add some game-mechanical consequence as was suggested above -- maybe charge 50 or 100 XP for the rollback. Something.
Every plan these days includes "run this by the clan and don't do it if they say not to", and we're fine with that. There have been lots of cases where a clan member nixed an idea that would have been problematic.
As to this specific case, it was Velorien's update so I'll let him speak for himself, but I suspect that there would have been no issue if you had said "run this by Mari first and, IF she signs off, THEN approach <the other person we want to recruit who EJ is not naming here in order to avoid spoilers for @Absoloot>." Instead, you pitched it to both of them at the same time.
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- Location
- UK
@Absoloot was concerned about things that are "just so retarded and unbelievable that it breaks me out of the story entirely". So when you said "there must be a chance of failure for success to matter" I took it in that context. Nobody, I think, believes we should never have a chance of failure, even those that would have preferred the QMs to prevent the killbox incident.
No, that's not at all what I was saying. Rather, Hazō would be a more consistent character if he cottoned on at the point where Mari starts looking at him funny, and didn't continue to run full-steam ahead with the plan even after it had gotten Naruto to throw him and the whole clan out. There's no realistic interpretation of Hazō in my mind where <follow the plan to the letter> should take priority in that moment.
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If it keeps happening again, then it's a problem to be solved, not something we can just take it to heart to the point that we will basically never repeat the mistake.
I have seen nothing to change that other than a pinky promise swear to ourselves we will never ever repeat the mistake, which is not a real solution.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Well...you could look at it in other ways.
Like...
Would I threaten to back a political opponent if someone doesn't cooperate? Yes. Yes I would. Also IRL, such a vague threat (since it can be eventually linked to death down the line) doesn't result in insta-death.
Assuming the second one is OPSEC/telling about techniques...
Would I give all the information needed to survive a life and death situation and then deal with the outcome later? Probably. It's not always that situation, but as a Ninja....it is at least half the time. Also gotta remember IRL that Naruto exists as a show in which this is based on. And in that show, everyone seems to know everyone's techniques. And what they can do. When it's like...convenient at least. So it muddies the waters for people.
I never intended Hazo to threaten Kabuto despite the QMs' interpretation, reasonable or otherwise. So to me, that is a fat finger error.
IV: my columns!
/s I don't have a ton to contribute, but find myself agreeing with @MMKII and EJ a lot in this discussion, so just wanted to throw that out there. The rollback idea is intriguing in how infrequently it would realistically be used anyways.
- Location
- United States
I'm not sure if you understand what it means to participate in this quest, then.
This is entirely built on the spirit of mutual cooperation, where we are all the checks of each other in order to achieve certain goals.
Trying to hardcode in things that we can or cannot be allowed to do defeats the purpose of this quest, which is to explore the world and achieve whatever you wish; not for the QMs to bring you down a premade story with some variations on the way.
If we're not "allowed" to make giant blunders, are we also not "allowed" to make giant unheard of leaps of logic (hi skywalkers!)?
Trying to have it both ways is just trying to make this into a masturbatory fantasy where we win everything forever because the QMs automatically filter out all bad ideas and leave us only with the genius instead of the genius and the blunders.
But hey, I don't honestly post enough here that I expect for anything I say to have much weight behind it. Just take this as the rambling thoughts of a semi active poster.
I'm not sure if you understand what it means to participate in this quest, then.
This is entirely built on the spirit of mutual cooperation, where we are all the checks of each other in order to achieve certain goals.
Trying to hardcode in things that we can or cannot be allowed to do defeats the purpose of this quest, which is to explore the world and achieve whatever you wish; not for the QMs to bring you down a premade story with some variations on the way.
If we're not "allowed" to make giant blunders, are we also not "allowed" to make giant unheard of leaps of logic (hi skywalkers!)?
Trying to have it both ways is just trying to make this into a masturbatory fantasy where we win everything forever because the QMs automatically filter out all bad ideas and leave us only with the genius instead of the genius and the blunders.
But hey, I don't honestly post enough here that I expect for anything I say to have much weight behind it. Just take this as the rambling thoughts of a semi active poster.
That seems to be a misinterpretation.
Basically: I wanted us to succeed and to be given the tools to do so.
Think of aircraft crashes. They investigate the accident and figure out what they did wrong and how to remedy that mistake so that it won't happen again, or at least less likely to happen again. Changes may be technical, cultural, economic, or legal. But the point is: real changes are made and attempted that led to real improvement in outcome, most of the time.
I don't see that happening in this quest. We will continue in the same pattern and make the same mistake, over and over again.
We are not a learning culture. We are not improving. Heck, we don't even know what is our skill levels in planmaking.
It would be like getting into a plane accident and then saying: "It's the pilot's responsibility to fly the plane safely" and all the pilots pinky swear that they will fly safer. Maybe, they will for a while. But then carelessness creeped in as the incident slowly faded from their mind. Then some other pilot makes the same mistake with another plane and nobody learned anything from it and we have the 'pinky swear' moment again.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I feel a little disgruntled at this statement, because it looks like you're assuming that everyone agrees with you that we need to Fix Things, and that if I had read any other quest than this I would agree with you on not only a need to Fix Things but on the implementation details.
Point of order 1: I don't want to Fix Things. I think our agency situation and voting style mesh with the quest rather well, and so I don't think there is a problem to fix.
Point of order 2: I have and presently do read other quests here, and am quite familiar with different voting styles. So when I say that I don't want to overhaul the player-QM interaction, you can't play that off as me just being ignorant of the 'better ways' to do things. And off the top of my head I know that at least one other very active regular here is similarly versed.
I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings about agency in Marked for Death, but I must ask that you give us some credit when we disagree with you instead of assuming we're simply too ignorant to see the light.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
Players: We would like to assassinate the Hokage.
QMs: Your attempt fails. The Hokage murders you and your family horribly. -50 XP.
Players: We would like to assassinate the Hokage with poison.
QMs: Your attempt fails. You and your family are found dead in a ditch. -50 XP.
Players: We would like to assassinate the Hokage with explosives.
QMs: Your attempt fails. The Hokage spares you and your family. Hah, just kidding. You are all dead. -50 XP.
Players: Hokage. Kill.
QMs: -50 XP.
Players: Just kill the guy already!
QMs: ... -50 XP.
Players: Keep rolling until we get lucky.
QMs: Fine. You get a lucky roll after 3921 attempts. Unfortunately you lost so much XP that your Physique score is now in the negative and your body collapses under its own weight. You die and so does your family for unrelated yet very satisfying reasons.
Players:
Also Players: This quest sucks, how could we have known?!
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I would like to propose the veto vote rather than resorting to something drastic as rollback.
Basically, it is the solution to the 'no-win' situation players may find themselves in the last debacle.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Players: We would like to assassinate the Hokage.
QMs: Your attempt fails. The Hokage murders you and your family horribly. -50 XP.
Players: We would like to assassinate the Hokage with poison.
QMs: Your attempt fails. You and your family are found dead in a ditch. -50 XP.
Players: We would like to assassinate the Hokage with explosives.
QMs: Your attempt fails. The Hokage spares you and your family. Hah, just kidding. You are all dead. -50 XP.
Players: Hokage. Kill.
QMs: -50 XP.
Players: Just kill the guy already!
QMs: ... -50 XP.
Players: Keep rolling until we get lucky.
QMs: Fine. You get a lucky roll after 3921 attempts. Unfortunately you lost so much XP that your Physique score is now in the negative and your body collapses under its own weight. You die and so does your family for unrelated yet very satisfying reasons.
Players:
Also Players: This quest sucks, how could we have known?!
Don't tempt me with a good time.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
The solution is to accept that getting a 99.99...% chance of success is nigh-impossible no matter what we do, and that doing so continuously is literally impossible. Given slight double transparency goofs from time to time, meta-level issues (people were tired, I am doing crazy edits to make my plan beat the other one because I dislike it, I am trying to get my idea passed because I like it, weird IRL stuff, its midterms or finals week or coming down to (insert holidays) anyway so 1/3 to 2/3 of the thread is out of commission), and general vote weirdness, we're sitting at much lower than 99.99% on average before we even get into mechanical issues.
I would estimate we average about a 1% chance (over/under) of causing some significantly catastrophic event in your generic update. We should expect then, to see about one catastrophic event per 100 chapters.
(This matches up with the Killbox and Tipserator Timeline incidents nicely, at least.)
As XP -> (Huge number) , this rate drops like a rock. Likewise as Effort ~> Big, the variance will push towards the positive side of things too, so we'll see a super bad thing happen maybe 1-2 times more before "pissing someone off" becomes an almost utterly irrelevant consequence.
Theres not some sort of massive systemic problem with the structure of things in this thread you need to fix to "solve" the problem you're talking about. The massive systemic problem at the root of things is "People are rarely perfect and do fuck up quite often, even if they're trying really hard not to."
And thats OK.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Have you considered that there is no satisfactory solution, that there's no way to prevent these kinds of negative developments without compromising on the fundamental premises of this quest?
Because I think this is the case, and I'm fine with that. Once in a while our planmaking will result in extremely bad outcomes; such is life. The questing experience seems to be fairly positive-sum for the QMs and the majority of players anyway, so I'm inclined to just say that the current system is flawed but good enough, and move on.
Your analogy with planes is a very flawed one. In it, the negative consequence is "people literally die"; in our case, it's "fictional characters suffer and 20-30 people have mildly upsetting afternoons". This is sensible to spend enormous amounts of effort on fixing the former, maybe even make planes more expensive and less available, because the negative consequence is almost infinitely bad compared to the inconveniences that would need to be endured to fix it. In the latter case, I suspect that all possible solutions would make the questing experience overall worse, either because it'll make all instances of planmaking from that point onward more difficult/time-consuming, or because it'll take away some important part of the experience.
Really, we should just move on.
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