The clan's reaction seems strange to me. It was previously stated by both her and other clan members that a Hiashi Kage = dead Goketsu, Kagome was talking about pre-emptively fleeing to avoid that fate. It's been referred to OOC by the GMs as an existential threat. This should obviously be the DEFCON-1 priority for the clan.

Why now would any of Mari, Noburi or Akane object to giving up vote markers (for far less important votes) or money to improve your chances at the Kage vote? Why would she mischaracterize the difference in victory % as "slight" (Uchiha voting yes is literally the difference between a tie and a win in the event that the Hyuuga have flipped one vote of their own, a fairly likely scenario) and why would neither of Noburi or Akane object to that mischaracterization?

Are they that confident that flipping the Hagoromo is sufficient, were they just dazzled by her social-fu?

Another issue is that the rough outline of the deal was probably created back when there was a month to the Kage vote (and thus much more time to flip other clans), while now there is less than a week to the Kage vote, so naturally there would be different preferences in such a scenario.
 
Are they that confident that flipping the Hagoromo is sufficient, were they just dazzled by her social-fu?
I'm not 100%, but I get the feeling that the deal Mari made with the Hagoromo wasn't so much 'we'll give you money because we're nice and now that you're not leashed to the Hyuuga you could vote against them if you want' but more 'We'll give you money enough to not be leashed to the Hyuuga, and in return you vote against them'.
 
I'm not 100%, but I get the feeling that the deal Mari made with the Hagoromo wasn't so much 'we'll give you money because we're nice and now that you're not leashed to the Hyuuga you could vote against them if you want' but more 'We'll give you money enough to not be leashed to the Hyuuga, and in return you vote against them'.

Of course, but what I was asking is whether the rest of the clan feels like flipping the Hagoromo is enough to guarantee victory over the Hyuuga. Maybe this is another information-context issue where flipping clans in Kage votes is really hard and they're not expecting the Hyuuga to flip any votes, so flipping 2 is total overkill, but that seems unlikely given the resources the Hyuuga have at hand.

Given that it's been characterized as an existential threat, shouldn't everyone be going: "This Kage vote is literally life and death, Hazou has the completely right idea to ask for the Yes vote and to put up all reasonable concessions for it given what is at stake, even if the chances are low it's still absolutely worth asking?"

I would only be comfortable if you could flip 3, and 4 would be ideal. The larger the voting bloc, the more kickbacks you can get from the Kage-to-be (or the more likely to reach an agreement with Hiashi) anyway.
 
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I'm not 100%, but I get the feeling that the deal Mari made with the Hagoromo wasn't so much 'we'll give you money because we're nice and now that you're not leashed to the Hyuuga you could vote against them if you want' but more 'We'll give you money enough to not be leashed to the Hyuuga, and in return you vote against them'.

I think he was referring to Akane and Noburi being dazzled, not the Hagomoro.

Edit: :ninja:'d
 
I just want to know what on EN isc and the rest of our bloc has been doing

Unless maube thats why mari isn't worried about the hat. Maybe we're stuggling over flipping the 4th clan, rather than the 2nd.
 
I just want to know what on EN isc and the rest of our bloc has been doing

Unless maube thats why mari isn't worried about the hat. Maybe we're stuggling over flipping the 4th clan, rather than the 2nd.
If ISC are making major plays and Mari knows it (and thus is unworried about the short term and is instead making long term gains) I wished she would have expressed this to us.

As acting Clan Head, this seems like information Hazou either should know or someone should be telling him if he doesn't.
 
So what are we going to talk to Asuma, Ino and, Chozou about?
Off the top of my head? Condolences for their lost loved ones, reaffirm our support as allies(or affirm friendliness towards the Sarutobi at least), inform each other on what they've done to prepare for the kage election and our own progress, possible casual talk on later deals between our clans and furthering relations, etc.
 
So what are we going to talk to Asuma, Ino and, Chozou about?

All:
- Express condolences for their losses in the tactful and intelligent way I remember us doing for Minami.

Asuma:
- Our experiences (however brief) with J-man and the influence the Sandaime had on him.
- His experience with losing his father and having to step into his shoes.
- J-man's will and our vision for a better world.
- Hokage?

Ino:
- Sudden responsibility of having to become a clan head.
- Happier memories from the Chunin Exam and before that.
- How DID she pull off that Metal Release, anyway? (Jokingly)
- Offer support, either advice from not-a-Nara or just chatting over tea.
- Asuma as Hokage.

Chouza: Honestly, not sure for him beyond condolences and reaffirming support.
 
Asuma: Cut him in for 1/4 of land clearing profits, our support available on the clan council, Get him to support economic reforms or moves we make, Desire to stay out of the field, if fieldwork is required priority on keeping Kei, Noburi and, Hazō together, we want the dog scroll
 
How valuable is land clearing, again? I recall a discussion on discord after we got some numbers from the effort to clear land for a winter shelter, but I don't exactly recall the process used.
 
I think that disease spirits exist. If they didn't, surely Tsunade would have pointed it out and made the Konoha med-nin stop acting as if they existed ?
 
How valuable is land clearing, again?
One hectare of reasonably fertile land produces 10 Koku of rice per year being tended by 4.5 farmers (each farmer consumes 1 Koku per year @ subsistence level, for surplus of 5.5 Koku per hectare per annum). Historical GDP per capita was in the $500-600 (1990) range under such regimes.

Producitivity of 2.2 Koku / Farmer assuming agriculture comprises 87% of GDP @ $550 / annum =
(550*.87) / 2.2 = $217 (1990) per Koku or $424 (2019) per Koku or 4,240 Ryo per Koku.

Eyeballing this number against my previous price chart, it seems reasonable enough, the average farmer generating between 7500 - 10,000 Ryo of income per year means food costs are between 40-60% of a peasant's income.

1) 4,240 Ryo per Koku with a net 5.5 Koku per Hectare per annum means net income per Hectare of 23,320 Ryo per year, so the capital value of that land will be between 233,200 and 466,400 Ryo.

2) There are 100 Hectares in 1 square kilometer, so if the pangolins can clear 1 sq. kilometer per day, they can generate 23,200,000 - 46,400,000 Ryo worth of value per day or 8.4 - 16.9 billion Ryo worth of value per year, subject to the limitations of available land and the need for security costs once cleared land expands far from Hidden Leaf. For reference, Fire Country's entire annual GDP is only 3.8 billion Ryo.

3) Of course, all this is subject to the availability of someone to either purchase or work the land, and the amount of land that actually receives 'free' protection from proximity to Hidden Leaf is likely less than 20 sq. kilometers. Still, feudal society placed enormous value upon land as one of the only capital assets available. Any noble or merchant clan with the liquidity would jump on the chance to purchase land at a discount, though you would likely have difficulty extracting more than a billion of active currency out of Hidden Leaf.

4) If the land cleared is the fertile Chakra land present in Hidden Leaf (@5 Kokus / Farmer), each Hectare instead produces (22.5 - 5) = 17.5 net koku of rice per annum meaning 74,200 Ryo per Hectare per annum, with a capital value about 3.5x what I previously quoted.

That is to say, if you can overcome the logistical issues inherent to the process, 'generating' fertile land in this manner would be by far the most incredibly profitable thing you could do, even if you had to sell at a 20, 30, or even 50% discount. Of course, even better would be to take out loans collateralized against the value of the land because then you could build generational wealth while still acquiring cash on hand to use.

A few issues to consider:

1) Any land not in the vicinity of Leaf will be less valuable as it incurs security costs to protect.

2) Getting peasants to work the land should not be too difficult in the short term (most labor required in rice production is concentrated in planting and harvest seasons, you can easily generate part-time labor by paying upgraded wages during harvest season and only require a skeleton crew the rest of the year; worst case you can use Naruto clones), but finding sources of liquidity that can actually purchase the land, even at a 50% discount, will be much harder past the first few thousand hectares.

3) In the medium run, massive overproduction of food will tank food prices, thus lowering the value of the land but also freeing up more of the populace for non-agricultural tasks (until child survival rates increase to absorb the expanded food supply). This can be avoided by stockpiling the food in storage scrolls, or food can be exported to neighboring countries in order to crush their economies as a form of indirect warfare. Or peacefully exported to Seventh Path allies to expand their populations.

4) You can get around liquidity issues somewhat by directly trading land for services or products, say 1 hectare (232,000 Ryo) for 1 month's worth of jounin service. This is similar to how medieval lords bought the loyalty of local combatants (knights) by making them landed knights. Rather than bribing people with currency, you can just directly bribe them with land.

All that said, if you can generate even 1 sq. kilometer of arable land in Leaf's vicinity via this method, that would produce at a minimum 23 million (72 million if Chakra soil) Ryo of value within one day, or 1.5x the annual income of a Sealmaster Jounin. It's worth researching whether there are such plots around Leaf (or Tanzaku / Otofuku Gai) available to be cleared.
 
Given that they're speaking ElementalNationish, I was surprised to find Honoka and Kagome arguing about English grammar. Perhaps there just so happens to be a similar thing for them to argue about in ElementalNationese.

Lovely update, @eaglejarl. Thank you.


from semi-defrauding innocent civilians
I don't see it. Tell them explicitly "This is a temporary fix. The bedbugs will re-infiltrate in a day or two from other places. Do you want it?" And there's no fraud.

But the point is that he's giving up power to enact systemic change over Leaf and the world by proxy for the sake of 11 and 55 people. This is trolley problem writ large.
Not really. He might or might not ever have the power to enact systemic change. Even with this change to the deal, he still might or might not ever have that power. He's giving up some small percentage of his chance to have that power at some arbitrary time in the future in exchange for the certainty of being able to help (that is, not hurt) these people now.
If it costs us our long term bargaining power over the direction Leaf goes in the following decades for the sake of 11 people and 55 who are yet to be... That's honestly kind of viscerally disgusting to me.
If Hazo makes too many moral compromises on the way, by the time he gets general power, he won't particularly be interested in Uplift any more. For a real-world comparison, I'm sure that the Communists under Lenin, Mao Tze-Dong, and the Khmer Rouge originally genuinely wanted to make their countries better places. On the way to power, they made the moral compromises that they thought were necessary. When they got there, they'd become monsters, far worse than what they replaced.
I dunno, it was a fun and varied discussion, and i'm still proud of the consensus we came to without anyone* getting angry
Point--there was no consensus. There was a vote, and the majority won. The minority (at least, that part of the minority named Me) disagrees with the outcome, but accepts its legitimacy. Still, no consensus.
 
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Behold, four posts have merged into one, through the wisdom of a moderator!
*refreshes the page*
Hm the chapter isn't out yet. Better try again just in case. *refreshes the page*
Still not out, I probably should have expected that.
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*refreshes the page*
Damnit.
I think you can just open the "alerts" tab instead of refreshing.

***
If we're having fun with Latin, here's my contribution:
Jutsu virumque cano, Caligine qui primus ab oris Ignem fato profugus Frondosumque venit agros.

***
I recommend adding the date of the vote to the end of slot allocation table.

Anyone else worried by the repeated brood mare comments? Mari's reversal from horror at a mist breeding program, to facilitating this deal and talking like this, is just adding to my "Mari's getting worse but we're kind of stuck" worry.
Yes.
I definitely want Hazō to talk to Noburi, Akane and Kagome and discuss his concerns about Mari. In fact I was anticipating that it would happen in the above chapter, when Mari walked out to renegotiate with the Uchiha, leaving the rest of the clan together. :(

(Maybe Mari was upset about the Mist program because it would involve girls as young as twelve? Or maybe she only cares about ninja women being turned into brood mares, and not about civilians?)

Also, I think in Mari's recent conversation with Hazou, she wanted to impress on him "I am smarter than you and you should just trust me in the future and not interfere with my work."
 
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I just realized something random yet wonderful. Storage seals kill living organisms. Such as insects and arachnids. Which means that if you place a bed or clothing inside one, all the bedbugs and any other biting things inside all die. Bedbugs were a pretty ubiquitous problem until DDT was invented, so we can probably assume that all the civilians and many/all of the ninja are pretty likely to have them (it's possible that clan ninja, especially the Nara, would have thought of the storage scroll idea and obviously would have the funds for a storage scroll. It is unlikely in the extreme however that they would make this service available to civilians or clanless).

Therefore, I believe there is money to be made in a civilian hiring out D rank missions for a ninja to follow them around and operate a storage scroll. That civilian then goes around and sells the opportunity to temporarily be bedbug-free for a small sum. Since bedbugs also like to inhabit places other than the mattress (like the crack where the wall meets the floor), this will only be a temporary relief, which is why the cost needs to be low (repeat customers!).

It is possible that the bedbug problem has already been solved by the Aburame.
 
First off, an excellent update, @eaglejarl You really are on a strike here.

You'll give them training in our clan secrets which they will absolutely not leak to the clan known for stealing jutsu.

*tinfoil* Not to mention that clan that is known for being one of the best in range of jutsus that bend perception of reality for other people may not stop there. */tinfoil*

"Oh no!" Kagome-sensei said, clapping his hands to his face. "I must have accidentally put your coats into macerator seals instead of into storage seals! They have been destroyed through my error and inattentiveness! Please, allow me to make it up to you!"

Kagome, Uplifting civilians and clanless with casualness of a rich asshat, though being poor most of his life. You, re the best Yuu.

Clearly, he needed to have his ego stroked and attempt, in his pathetically self-important way, to prove himself the best storyteller in the room. And, of course since he was a terrible person it needed to be done at the expense of some perfectly innocent person

I think hivemind handling of Mari irt Uchiha deal created an invisible Aspect for Hazou. Something along the lines of "Insensitive asshole".

Noburi just humanized you, more than you could do it to yourself, Hazou. Now they can become your friends, not only allies. And they tend to betray less, you know. But no, you need to be all bitter when your brother does everything to help you, you little prick!

Unless, that was sarcasm, in which I retract my angry rant and thank you for an awesome description of a scene. But was it really, @eaglejarl,was it?
 
"Honestly, what are they teaching at that school? It's like everyone in Leaf is retarded."

Let's order some Nara made posters for our campaign, hmm?



"Kind? No no no! It's not kindness! I'm just apologizing, because I accidentally destroyed your lousy coats. Completely accidentally. Not intentionally. It's my fault, so you are doing me a favor by letting me give you this stuff and not being mad at me."

Kagome, Deceit: 1 (base) + 3 ("Premediated") - 2 (Dice) = 2
Anyone not Kagome, Deceit: >2

"Yeah," Nakano said at last. "These three"—he gestured at his teammates and Jinno—"got off okay, but my da and my oldest sister were in the market when it got hit. She's dead and he got his leg torn off. The medics found him before he bled out and they patched him up. If I hustle and if these guys help out then I can probably run enough missions to pay for him to stay in hospital and still cover rent, food, and fuel."

I was half hoping Hazou would offer to pay for the hospital bill since we did offer to help out but also half dreading he would do it in a really offensive way.

Either way, maybe something to put into the next plan?
 
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