It sort of undermines the idea that 5 elements are supposed to be rare when J says things like "All elite ninja have 5 elements" and Zabuzza says things like "A Mist jonin with fewer than 5 elements would be laughed at".

So not that rare.
 
It sort of undermines the idea that 5 elements are supposed to be rare when J says things like "All elite ninja have 5 elements" and Zabuzza says things like "A Mist jonin with fewer than 5 elements would be laughed at".

So not that rare.
In canon only The God Of Shinobi had 5 without resorting to hacks, IIRC. It's...fine if we want more magic, I guess, but then mechanics have to be seriously readjusted, because right now it is very much not every jonin that can(and, perhaps more importantly, should) learn 5 elements.

EDIT: Also, I fear for QM spoons if they have to simulate efficient market produced by majority of high-level people having access to that much magic.
 
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In canon only The God Of Shinobi had 5 without resorting to hacks, IIRC. It's...fine if we want more magic, I guess, but then mechanics have to be seriously readjusted, because right now it is very much not every jonin that can(and, perhaps more importantly, should) learn 5 elements.

EDIT: Also, I fear for QM spoons if they have to simulate efficient market produced by majority of high-level people having access to that much magic.
Nah, so did Kakashi. And lot sof others, I'm sure.
 
Nah, so did Kakashi. And lot sof others, I'm sure.
Well, than either Kakashi cheated, he is stupid, there is some non-obvious advantage to having so many elements that would balance out the enormous drop in personal power from not putting that XP into skills, or current element skill cost entirely fails to reflect the world.
 
In canon only The God Of Shinobi had 5 without resorting to hacks, IIRC. It's...fine if we want more magic, I guess, but then mechanics have to be seriously readjusted, because right now it is very much not every jonin that can(and, perhaps more importantly, should) learn 5 elements.

EDIT: Also, I fear for QM spoons if they have to simulate efficient market produced by majority of high-level people having access to that much magic.

Nah, so did Kakashi. And lot sof others, I'm sure.

My general setting-impression is that genin usually have one, chuunin may start on their second, and you don't get your third until after you hit jounin; only S-rankers have 4 or 5. So while I think the current math is probably overcosting it a little, in general the last couple levels should be pretty hard to get.

Here's a thought: you could gate it behind skill levels with other elements - no second element until the first hits 30, no third until the first hits 50 and the second 30, etc. Could probably reduce the XP cost further with prerequisites like that, would probably be better; I'm not fond of individual XP expenditures that take over a year's worth of XP from someone on a high curve to buy (as it seems more likely they'd come across something more urgent in that time, or otherwise have too much other stuff they could get for that training time, ie spend that XP on raising their combat pools to not die).
 
Well, than either Kakashi cheated, he is stupid, there is some non-obvious advantage to having so many elements that would balance out the enormous drop in personal power from not putting that XP into skills, or current element skill cost entirely fails to reflect the world.
Remember, Kakashi has the Sharingan, which drastically reduces skill XP costs. Really, the Uchiha should all have five, but for everybody else, there's no real reason to take more than two; you have a primary and a secondary. Your primary is your go-to technique, but if someone hard-counters your primary you switch to your secondary, which hard-counters your opponent's hard-counter to your primary.

For example, we take a Leaf ninja with a primary in Fire. Against Fire, Wind, Lightning, or Earth, use Fire, but if your opponent has water, use your secondary, Earth. Hence, all elements are covered pretty well and XP is not stupidly wasted.
 
Soo , why is Jiraiya that confident about not needing all those security measures again? .
Recall that some of Kagome's security measures are things like "ensure that the entire field is flat within a tolerance of 1 inch" and "do the special 'Please Don't Let the Creatures From Beyond Spacetime Notice What I'm Doing' butt-wiggle dance". It's possible that Kagome is right and all of these things really do contribute to safety because chakra is weird. It's also possible that he's got some magical thinking going on.

@eaglejarl is 80 a hard cap now? This is very relevant to some optimisation discussions we've been having on discord.
No. There's no reason you couldn't go over 80 but the cost of doing so means that there's probably more efficient things to do.

And a source of water.
No. Water Whip will work fine if you don't have a water source, it's just that it will then be a chakra construct and therefore not eligible for draining through. Hōzuki's Mantle is the same. In fact, I can't offhand recall a jutsu we've shown thus far that requires a source of its element.

It sort of undermines the idea that 5 elements are supposed to be rare when J says things like "All elite ninja have 5 elements" and Zabuzza says things like "A Mist jonin with fewer than 5 elements would be laughed at".

So not that rare.
Without making any specific statements about what is or isn't true in-setting, may I point out that neither of those two are known for their meek and humble natures. Neither are they known for their strict adherence to truth, and humblebrags are a thing.

Nah, so did Kakashi. And lot sof others, I'm sure.
Citations needed? I am far from an expert on canon, but the only non-Kakashi ninja that I know of who have all 5 elements are epic level. In Kakashi's case it makes perfect sense for him to have all 5 because he wants to be able to steal and use any interesting jutsu he comes across. If you can point to some garden-variety chūnin or jōnin that have all five elements then I'll revise my beliefs on the subject.

no second element until the first hits 30
Elemental affinities don't work like that -- they are stunts, not skills. You don't level them, you simply buy them.
 
Now taking a non-binding vote to gauge the temperature of the room:

[] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [] [Why] Because the current issues are too severe to play
- [] [Why] Because consensus is important
- [] [Why] Write-in


[] [Rules] Freeze the rules as they are and start writing plot again
- [] [Why] The rules are good enough and I don't like rules changing during play
- [] [Why] Write-in


[X] [Rules] Start writing plot again even though the rules still have issues; we'll sort it out as we go and tweak the characters as needed
- [X] [Why] The rules are generally okay and we can all be flexible
- [] [Why] I would accept absolutely anything if we could just get moving again
- [] [Why] I don't care about the rules I just want to play the damn quest
- [] [Why] Write-in




Regardless of what is voted on we would need to build character sheets first, so we probably couldn't start plot on Thursday even if we wanted to. Also, Sunday is Christmas so I'll be writing something in advance, meaning no opportunity for a vote based on a Thursday update.
 
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I believe the proposal is precisely to make affinities into skills, and then have the various individual jutsu be stunts?
I saw it as having to buy the affinity, then level it's "effectiveness"-i.e. how good you are at controlling that kind of chakra bending. Individual jutsu are then bought as stunts.

No. Water Whip will work fine if you don't have a water source, it's just that it will then be a chakra construct and therefore not eligible for draining through. Hōzuki's Mantle is the same. In fact, I can't offhand recall a jutsu we've shown thus far that requires a source of its element.

Well, that makes it way better. I still don't see the overwhelming benefit of using a jutsu for a purpose where taijutsu would serve just as well if not better (no hand seals required to activate, no chakra cost). Any comment on my other points?
 
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[x] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [x] Because consensus is important

[X] [Rules] Start writing plot again even though the rules still have issues; we'll sort it out as we go and tweak the characters as needed
- [X] The rules are generally okay and we can all be flexible
 
[x] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [x] [Why] Because we are literally about to get into a fight
 
[x] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [x] [Why] Because details of rules affect planning and decision making
- [x] [Why] Because we are literally about to get into a fight
 
[x] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [x] [Why] Because the current rules doc lacks important details (such as mechanics for many of our jutsu)
 
Well, that makes it way better. I still don't see the overwhelming benefit of using a jutsu for a purpose where taijutsu would serve just as well if not better (no hand seals required to activate, no chakra cost). Any comment on my other points?

Responses telegraphic as I need to get back to work.

As for jutsu as skills, I still think types of jutsu have to be rolled into general skills (e.g. "Water Jutsu" for all water-based jutsus) since otherwise you get a bunch of problems:
The QMs have been pretty clear that we do not agree with this idea. You've proposed it several times and I believe @Erolki has also been pushing it but it really hasn't moved us. I understand that you do not agree with our reasoning, but this may be a case where you just need to let it go. Still, I'll try to respond to your specifics.

  • Weird dissonance where "Ranged Weapons" is very general and handles all ranged weapons from shuriken to kunai to thrown bombs, while "Water Whip" is just this one specific jutsu that can be countered by enemies far easier if they prepare for it and also costs a resource to even activate. And a source of water. If enemies take all our kunai, Keiko can throw shurikens. If they take shurikens, she can throw explosive tags on wooden disks. If they take those, she can throw sharpened chopsticks. If a water-whip user loses a source of water (Wakahisa not being the baseline) he can't use water-whip at all, or do anything else with that skill.
Disagree. "Throw object" is a single skill that any human can learn. "Do specific piece of magic" is different. Also, as mentioned above, the jutsu does not have the disadvantages that you were claiming for it.

  • There is no strong incentive to level Water Whip over, say, Taijutsu-they are both melee attacks that work pretty similarly. Water Jutsu now has that "no counter attacks" clause, but that's mostly a matter of personal preference and is probably balanced out by having to carry a jug of water around. Not every Water Whip user is a Wakahisa. On the other hand, if Water Jutsu is a single skill, there is incentive to level it instead of taijutsu because it improves all your water-based jutsus.
It's really not a matter of personal preference. At all. Not taking counterattack damage is a major advantage. And, again, you don't need to have a water source available -- that's been established multiple times throughout the story.

  • There is no real incentive to specialise in ninjutsu-jutsus don't play off one another by default, and as soon as you have 2-3 jutsu you need to supplement your attack skill of choice there is no incentive to get more jutsus of your element. This delegates jutsu to a primarily support/utility role. On the other hand, if each jutsu is learned as a stunt with a set learning XP cost, but uses general Water Jutsu skill to determine effectiveness, that heavily incentivises learning more jutsus of your element once you know some (since you already made the Water Jutsu skill investement)
I don't understand your thinking here well enough to respond to it, so I'll just offer a general "do not agree".


  • There is nothing that incentivises learning "easy" water jutsus before a "complex" water jutsu. It is exactly as easy to learn "Water Whip" as it is to learn "Turn All Non-Ally Blood Within 200 Meters To Plasma No Jutsu" provided you read the description in a book or have a teacher present. So an academy graduate genin could hypothetically learn that jutsu, provided he had enough chakra to cast it at all, and it would be exactly as easy as learning Water Whip. On the other hand, if a general Water Jutsu skill exists, it allows for gating learing complex jutsus behind a skill requirement, e.g. "must have 60 Water Jutsu skill to learn 'Summon 200 Meter High Tsunami No Jutsu'", which both fits the world, provides a feeling of progression and actually gives ninja a reason to learn inefficient low-level jutsus (since otherwise their Water Jutsu skill will be unused until they could learn the desired OHKO jutsu)

There's no incentive to learn "easy" jutsu before "complex" ones...except that more complex jutsu will have a higher chakra cost, making them less suitable for those with genin-level chakra reserves. And more complex jutsu probably aren't as easily available because there are fewer teachers. And (if they are significantly more powerful / more complex) more complex jutsu might have higher XP costs.
 
Oops, missed a point from @Winged_One

Well, that makes it way better. I still don't see the overwhelming benefit of using a jutsu for a purpose where taijutsu would serve just as well if not better (no hand seals required to activate, no chakra cost).

Noburi prefers WW to taijutsu because...
  • He can drain through it as long as it was made from real water, which is trivial since it requires about ~0.4L
  • He can't be counterpunched while using it
  • He has so much chakra that the very low cost of WW is negligible to him
  • I can think of a lot of creative uses for a 4m liquid whip. Uses that can't be done with bare hands. I assume the hivemind can think of them as well.

Not taking counterattack damage is a major advantage.
I'm sorry do you actually believe that?
You caught me. I was lying to you.

In seriousness: It boggles me how you could think otherwise.


Okay, back to work. Catch y'all later.
 
[x] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [x] [Why] Because we are literally about to get into a fight
- [x] because not getting the rules play tested will lead to us going through the same song and dance in 3-6 months
 
[X] [Rules] Start writing plot again even though the rules still have issues; we'll sort it out as we go and tweak the characters as needed
- [X] [Why] I would accept absolutely anything if we could just get moving again
- [X] [Why] I don't care about the rules I just want to play the damn quest
- [X] [Why] It is unlikely we will ever have rules without significant issues


Edit:
I suppose my personal preference is to just have the rules go forever on the QM side of the screen without us having direct access to them. Prevents meta-gaming and lets the QMs fix mechanics on the fly.
 
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There's no incentive to learn "easy" jutsu before "complex" ones...except that more complex jutsu will have a higher chakra cost, making them less suitable for those with genin-level chakra reserves. And more complex jutsu probably aren't as easily available because there are fewer teachers. And (if they are significantly more powerful / more complex) more complex jutsu might have higher XP costs.
Mmn... not sure I agree with the first bit: Chakra Boosting uses a ludicrous amount of chakra relative to the actual cost of the techniques. For it to be WORTH learning a new technique over a current low level one, it would have to be strong enough relative to the chakra cost for there to be no reason to use the weaker one.
 
[x] [Rules] Do not start writing plot again until everyone is happy with the rules
- [x] [Why] Because details of rules affect planning and decision making
 
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