Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
What if you are reverse summoned back after being reverse summoned to the Seventh Path, by a summon who moved location since you originally summoned them?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
What if you are reverse summoned back after being reverse summoned to the Seventh Path, by a summon who moved location since you originally summoned them?
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
So Keiko summons Pandaa and Panchipaama, Panchipaama pulls her back to the Seventh Path, Pandaa runs a mile away and then summons Keilo? Let's hit that one with a 'not immediately ruled out' stamp.
- Location
- A Table Near You
Here's the relevant text:
Jiraiya said:
We already found the one freestanding summoning contract that Jiraiya—legendary ninja with 40 years of experience and an international spy network to back him up—is aware of. The remainder are held by people he considers to be badasses.
We're really, really not getting another contract.
([evil]Unless we want to steal Keiko's?)
- Location
- Snakesden
[epistemic status: may be wrong, probably incomplete. Feel like I can recognize some of what Mari's going thru, but might be pattern-matching to what I know.]
Re: Mari's psyche, I think part of the deal is she's self-aware enough to recognize all the self-presentation she does as aimed at some end, and that makes her feel like it's all "fake"--because it ties it to the very deliberate and usually pretty fake other-deception that she also does. And there's some direct ties to that too, since her self-models are probably influenced by the selves she portrays for the team, which are certainly logicked out to a fair degree.
The thing is, everyone does this to a fair extent. And every action or
I don't think there is a good answer to "who am I, really" besides "the part that decides what self-types to adopt or strive for". It sounds like that part of her is pretty praiseworthy, as I mentioned in my last post!
But she feels those inner values conflict with the "Inoue Mari, Jounin Extraordinaire" persona she's been putting on for others and herself for a long time. To an extent this is true--glorying in skill at killing, for example. But I think she's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because IMJE did a lot of stuff that was pretty awesome, and being awesome in that way doesn't have to (and often didn't) conflict with (a utilitarian version of) warm and fuzzy ethics.
Hazou's response to her was good--pointing out that Past Inoue was a good mom and protector, that she had many admirable qualities. I think the next step is helping Inoue carve a new self from the old, learning to live with (ideally, value) the parts that she and her team still need. And helping her keep in mind that self-deception and self-direction are necessary, commonplace things, and that she can accept things as legitimate that were made out of need (which was often admirable--the need to help and protect her team).
(Hazou also did well to push back on this front.)
Re: Mari's psyche, I think part of the deal is she's self-aware enough to recognize all the self-presentation she does as aimed at some end, and that makes her feel like it's all "fake"--because it ties it to the very deliberate and usually pretty fake other-deception that she also does. And there's some direct ties to that too, since her self-models are probably influenced by the selves she portrays for the team, which are certainly logicked out to a fair degree.
The thing is, everyone does this to a fair extent. And every action or
I don't think there is a good answer to "who am I, really" besides "the part that decides what self-types to adopt or strive for". It sounds like that part of her is pretty praiseworthy, as I mentioned in my last post!
But she feels those inner values conflict with the "Inoue Mari, Jounin Extraordinaire" persona she's been putting on for others and herself for a long time. To an extent this is true--glorying in skill at killing, for example. But I think she's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because IMJE did a lot of stuff that was pretty awesome, and being awesome in that way doesn't have to (and often didn't) conflict with (a utilitarian version of) warm and fuzzy ethics.
Hazou's response to her was good--pointing out that Past Inoue was a good mom and protector, that she had many admirable qualities. I think the next step is helping Inoue carve a new self from the old, learning to live with (ideally, value) the parts that she and her team still need. And helping her keep in mind that self-deception and self-direction are necessary, commonplace things, and that she can accept things as legitimate that were made out of need (which was often admirable--the need to help and protect her team).
(Hazou also did well to push back on this front.)
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Just saying, the Akatsuki had the right idea by rounding up and taking all the tailed beasts for themselves (even if that was a front for a more devious plan). We should do the same with scrolls imo. Then maybe we can work up to tailed beasts too.
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- Location
- US
Darth Hazo: The ability to control a tailed beast is insignificant next to the power of a seal.
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
-=PlanBot=-
Notes:
Goals for this Voting Session:
Current Plans by Goal:
Total Voters: 1
- Keiko's Birthday (1 Plans)
Current Plans by Goal:
Plan Name: Birthday Plan: Clear Communication no Jutsu
Author: HoratioVonBecker
Voters:
Num Votes: 1
Author: HoratioVonBecker
Voters:
Num Votes: 1
Total Voters: 1
Notes:
- To have your plan registered under goals, include a parenthetical beside the plan name with a new or existing goal. Example:
- [X] Plan: Zeppelins (Research)
- Note that the goal needs to match exactly with any existing goals.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
[] Plan Component Proposal : Heyyyyy Keiko Wazzup
A summoning contract is one of the most powerful force multipliers a ninja can have, it is a way to make us more survivable ASAP. Summons contracts are disproportionately powerful for our team because of Noburi. If anyone else has a lead on other lost/missing summon scrolls or the ability to make more, it would be people on the Summon Path.
Eh. I know this is a longshot, but it is still the highest probability way of getting another summon scroll we have acessible. But this is why there's the set of clauses about us renegotiating if this is non viable. I don't want to negotiate ourselves down before we even shake hands.
Now, the pangolins are also the most trustworthy allies this team has. Showing that we trust them in return (giving them the seals first, then renegotiating) will make them much better disposed to the rest of the team as well. Remember, we've shown that time and time again, humans are primed to respond to trust with trust and pangolin psychology is not so different from our own, even if parts of their culture are jarring. Saying "Here's something that will help you, we trust that you'll find a decent way to pay us back" implies that we want to form a long term relationship and spurs them to want to live up to that trust.
They've shown that they care about Keiko and her development. This gives us a place to make them see us as good team members for Keiko, as well as valuable in our own light. We will need that as we start to interact with the pangolin in a larger sense, especially if we're going to lay the groundwork for future collaboration. I really want to see us working with them economically, and intellectually (pangolin think tanks to help us solve problems).
So, this gets to the OP-SEC requirements. I've basically set a few major limits that should allow the pangolin to use the skywalker seals while minimizing risk that they will spread to other summon clans and their human summoners in our world. The major caveat here is the toads, I really don't want them to get the skywalker seals, but I figure it's better that the toads are around and Jiraiya gets the seal (and likewise for other allies) then an entire species goes extinct. I just don't like genocide.
I expect that the pangolins will see how important this sort of development will be, and how dangerous it will be in the hands of everyone. They are a regimented military culture (as opposed to the Ninja's more small semi-autonomous team type military culture, think Rome vs the Vikings), they are going to have solid op-sec and ability to keep things quiet.
Frankly, even if they have and make extensive use of skywalkers I'd be more worried about Hazou blurting it out when he sees Zabuza skinny dipping.
- Before Keiko leaves (if you can get to her) ask her how the tiff between the Pangolin and Condor is going. If she doesn't know, ask her if she is willing to ask around for Hazou. Use the reasons below if needed.
- Hazou suspects EN is gearing up for war. (Hazou knows this by extrapolating from the Noodle Incident, the extra instability with the Liberator, the Hot Springs incident and Jiraiya's demeanor. Though his confidence is much lower than that of the thread)
- He wants to know if the Animal Path is on a similar trajectory, since wars here could boil over there, and wars there could boil over here. If they're in a tense state or in a particularly anomalous state of war, then it changes Hazou's projections and longer term plans. (It seems like the Summon realm is characterized by constant border skirmishes, Hazou wants to know if things are weird.)
- Do the following as soon as Keiko tells Hazou about the condor situation. Ideally before she leaves, but even if it's after she comes back.
- "Hmm, would the skywalker or floating platform seals help the pangolin?" Ask Kieko if she thinks the skywalker or platform seals would be beneficial to the pangolin.
- Propose a deal: Hazou gives the pangolin the skywalker and/or platform seals and in return the pangolins agree that Hazou/the Team get any information they have on other summon path creatures who are looking for a summoner and might be amenable to working members of the team.
- They also agree not to share the seals without the explicit permission of Hazou, Keiko, and Inoue. If any of their allies are facing a truly existential threat which would be helped by the skywalker seals (i.e. that species would go extinct in the short term without the seals) and we are unreachable then they can share them, but we expect reasonable remuneration after the fact.
- Said reasonable remuneration to be discussed after the existential crisis has passed or when the recipient wants to, whichever comes first.
- They are not allowed to tell anyone that these seals are from us. If pressed their response should somehow explain why they're not willing to share the technology. We would also like to know the story they choose to use.
- If they come up with improvements to the skywalker seals, we would like to see them.
- We are specifically looking for more summon scrolls similar to how the toads helped us find the pangolin, but this extends to help (including advisors/tutors) developing a new summon scroll if there is another species who doesn't have a summon scroll.
- We might not be able to run off to find a scroll as soon as we are notified, and we may choose to forgo finding a scroll (because doing so would be too dangerous) or choose not to develop one (because our skill is not yet sufficient).
- This doesn't require the pangolin to go out of their way to find other willing summons for us, but we would appreciate then keeping an eye out.
- If the pangolins don't think this is feasible, or they go very long with no leads, we can discuss other forms of remuneration.
- Also, we'd like a list of major problems the pangolins have that sealing might help with. No promises, but we'll see if we can think of anything useful.
- We're still giving them the seals if the summon thing isn't viable as long as the non-sharing clause is acceptable. We trust their honor and their ability to notice the value of a good working relationship
- Non-binding secret notes to the pangolin on our intent:
- We really don't want these seals to be available to others on the human path, nor do we want anyone on the human path to know these seals exist, or that we created them.
- These could have major strategic implications on the human path, most of which would range from merely very bad to incredibly deadly depending on who gets the information.
- In particular we fear the Toad Summoner getting these seals, or the knowledge that we have them. He may choose to force us into his service or kill us, and we would like to control if and how he gets access to this information in order to mitigate these risks.
- We see the OP-SEC requirements as a healthy balance between allowing you to use these seals and keeping ourselves safe.
- However, we also do not want to tie your hands if an ally would be saved with these seals (even the Toads). If you anticipate this will be a problem we're open to suggestions on alternate OP-SEC rules. If something unanticipated does come up, we trust your judgement in balancing the safety of your people and your summoner.
- They also agree not to share the seals without the explicit permission of Hazou, Keiko, and Inoue. If any of their allies are facing a truly existential threat which would be helped by the skywalker seals (i.e. that species would go extinct in the short term without the seals) and we are unreachable then they can share them, but we expect reasonable remuneration after the fact.
A summoning contract is one of the most powerful force multipliers a ninja can have, it is a way to make us more survivable ASAP. Summons contracts are disproportionately powerful for our team because of Noburi. If anyone else has a lead on other lost/missing summon scrolls or the ability to make more, it would be people on the Summon Path.
Eh. I know this is a longshot, but it is still the highest probability way of getting another summon scroll we have acessible. But this is why there's the set of clauses about us renegotiating if this is non viable. I don't want to negotiate ourselves down before we even shake hands.
Now, the pangolins are also the most trustworthy allies this team has. Showing that we trust them in return (giving them the seals first, then renegotiating) will make them much better disposed to the rest of the team as well. Remember, we've shown that time and time again, humans are primed to respond to trust with trust and pangolin psychology is not so different from our own, even if parts of their culture are jarring. Saying "Here's something that will help you, we trust that you'll find a decent way to pay us back" implies that we want to form a long term relationship and spurs them to want to live up to that trust.
They've shown that they care about Keiko and her development. This gives us a place to make them see us as good team members for Keiko, as well as valuable in our own light. We will need that as we start to interact with the pangolin in a larger sense, especially if we're going to lay the groundwork for future collaboration. I really want to see us working with them economically, and intellectually (pangolin think tanks to help us solve problems).
So, this gets to the OP-SEC requirements. I've basically set a few major limits that should allow the pangolin to use the skywalker seals while minimizing risk that they will spread to other summon clans and their human summoners in our world. The major caveat here is the toads, I really don't want them to get the skywalker seals, but I figure it's better that the toads are around and Jiraiya gets the seal (and likewise for other allies) then an entire species goes extinct. I just don't like genocide.
I expect that the pangolins will see how important this sort of development will be, and how dangerous it will be in the hands of everyone. They are a regimented military culture (as opposed to the Ninja's more small semi-autonomous team type military culture, think Rome vs the Vikings), they are going to have solid op-sec and ability to keep things quiet.
Frankly, even if they have and make extensive use of skywalkers I'd be more worried about Hazou blurting it out when he sees Zabuza skinny dipping.
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I'm pretty sure even Jiraiya couldn't survive suddenly and unexpectedly finding himself in the middle of a couple thousand seal traps laid by a devious sealmaster set to trigger the moment he comes back from being reverse summoned.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Damnit :/ this is actually a good quote for the opsec section of my post, but I didn't see it in time.
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I doubt that we're going to get another summoning scroll out of it, but considering that their most hated enemy is both mobilizing and birds, the ability to fly would probably be worth some pretty impressive pangolin contracts.
Still, don't the skywalker seals require human chakra, at least in the water-walking-triggered form? They might be more interested in the watchtowers, and there are fewer security concerns with sharing those.
Still, don't the skywalker seals require human chakra, at least in the water-walking-triggered form? They might be more interested in the watchtowers, and there are fewer security concerns with sharing those.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
@Jello_Raptor We should ask after the Pangolins' wars in general. Hazou's being curious about them isn't reaching at all, at least by my nearest estimation of his character.
This isn't to say that I'm siding with the "keep them to ourselves" faction among us, just pointing out options. I'm just... mildly uncomfortable with how restrictive Mari is implying our Leaf stay to be.
e: An alternative for Hazou would be requesting Mind Reading blocking training (in case others than the Yamanaka are capable of such) and anti-interrogation (shudder) training for himself.
We may be able to adjust it for their use. If we did end up choosing to stick to ourselves, their having them could serve as our own form of cover should J find out we have them. We can just say "summon clan secrets, do you want to make enemies of the Pangolin?" or something to that effect. As long as we are clever about how we apply the seals to our shoes, he shouldn't be able to guess at how we got them.
This isn't to say that I'm siding with the "keep them to ourselves" faction among us, just pointing out options. I'm just... mildly uncomfortable with how restrictive Mari is implying our Leaf stay to be.
e: An alternative for Hazou would be requesting Mind Reading blocking training (in case others than the Yamanaka are capable of such) and anti-interrogation (shudder) training for himself.
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- Location
- US
@Jello_Raptor I'd phrase "expect serious remuneration" differently. That puts them helping allies in a negative light, a category which, to them, includes us.
Instead, offer that we would hope they extend the same curtesy to us. I model the pangolins as culturally proud, and would not take this in the potential negative (we don't think you would, so we're asking) but in the positive (we want to be polite about this, and our chiefest concern is our mutual benefit)
In the best case (no sharing of secret because no allies are endangered), the softer approach is strictly better.
In the quasi-neutral case, the pangolins share, and agree to what we determine are equitable reparations. Some faction in the pangolins is soured against us for taking advantage of them looking out for allies.
In the worst case, we don't get equitable reparations, and Keiko is disadvantaged by soured relations all around.
Instead, offer that we would hope they extend the same curtesy to us. I model the pangolins as culturally proud, and would not take this in the potential negative (we don't think you would, so we're asking) but in the positive (we want to be polite about this, and our chiefest concern is our mutual benefit)
In the best case (no sharing of secret because no allies are endangered), the softer approach is strictly better.
In the quasi-neutral case, the pangolins share, and agree to what we determine are equitable reparations. Some faction in the pangolins is soured against us for taking advantage of them looking out for allies.
In the worst case, we don't get equitable reparations, and Keiko is disadvantaged by soured relations all around.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
I like the watch tower idea.
Also our version will at least give them a huge head start on building versions that work for them.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Had a sudden thought: Keiko's Vacuum Step is really strong in combination with Skywalkers. ...Like, really strong. It has infinite range, and damage dealt is due to banging into things, and air being torn out of your lungs. The latter can be solved by emptying one's lungs first, the former by being sufficiently high in the air.
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There is a compromise between keeping them to ourselves and becoming a Leaf serf. We just need a stronger position.
Remember the original plan to build up a village and become a client state or at least Leaf citizens in a remote colony? Well, we know of a fully functional ninja village which is massively reorienting to approach the outside world and for which the team is ideal to fill a leadership position. They'd thrive under the Leaf umbrella as they found their feet, and Leaf would get a major strategic position in a previously barren area, but they're too powerful and remote to just annex outright, and they probably wouldn't put the same restrictions on Hazou.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm allergic to Mountain politics. Very sad affliction, I break out in hives and die every time I think of them. I've died forty-seven times so far.
I suspect that they're going to be shaken up an awful lot as to new guard takes over, and the summoner will carry a lot of weight. Ultimately, we don't need to be closely involved, just covered under their aegis such that Leaf treating the team as honored and allied diplomats or dual citizens is a better decision for them than burning bridges with the only ninja village in an entire territory.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yeah, that's fair. It's worth bringing up to the team as a possibility, at least.
Who needs zeppelins when you have Keiko's Storage Scrolls 'n' More Delivery Service?
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
This is a set of really good points. I've added a few changes softening the language, adding the platform seals, and making our intent clear (albeit in a set of non-binding notes).
There's also a section where I've specifically mentioned our issues with regards to Jiraiya that I am significantly less sure about. I would appreciate any thought on whether it should stay.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
...Wow. If we can test that, and it works, I want to go explore the rest of the world. How much is a Wind Affinity, again?
(Oh, and if this works, so should Henging into a glider after going up a fair ways. Is there a mechanism in place to prevent that?)
"That's how I want to go."
"What, muttering about pot pie?"
"Nope. Late."
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Approximately 210 XP to get Air Affinity (155 XP) and Vacuum Step 10 (55 XP). If done at present, Hazou would also need increase his control.
- Location
- US
I don't know how well Hidden Mountain stacks up against the Leaf. My impression was that there were two reasons why they weren't getting steam-rolled:
1) it's not Leaf's modus operandi (Leaf has a schtick of being somewhat peaceful, at least at surface level). This is especially true of Jiraiya and his cohorts, through whom all of Leaf-Mountain interaction has been filtered
2) Leaf benefits more by having a buffer nation in a friendly state, than a razed village with leftover insurgents.
After the rebalancing, I cannot honestly predict how effective hidden mountain's forces might be in general, but by numeric weight alone, Leaf crushes Mountain.
Edit: a point to tie it together... I wouldn't bank on Mountain offering sure refuge if we hold something Leaf values more highly than a semi-friendly border nation. Add to that the possibility that other countries may infiltrate the lower security village to steal it (Konoha wouldn't do that. Of course not.), and the picture gets less rosy.
1) it's not Leaf's modus operandi (Leaf has a schtick of being somewhat peaceful, at least at surface level). This is especially true of Jiraiya and his cohorts, through whom all of Leaf-Mountain interaction has been filtered
2) Leaf benefits more by having a buffer nation in a friendly state, than a razed village with leftover insurgents.
After the rebalancing, I cannot honestly predict how effective hidden mountain's forces might be in general, but by numeric weight alone, Leaf crushes Mountain.
Edit: a point to tie it together... I wouldn't bank on Mountain offering sure refuge if we hold something Leaf values more highly than a semi-friendly border nation. Add to that the possibility that other countries may infiltrate the lower security village to steal it (Konoha wouldn't do that. Of course not.), and the picture gets less rosy.
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