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I don't have any other ideas of how to manipulate the hose, but..

Any idea how USSJ fits in the hose metaphor? In the hose model, water flowing faster increases the force it hits with, but what explanation does it have for something that increases your power but decreases your speed?

And what about Roshi's buff form, for that matter? Does that have any relation to either Tabe's or Jaffur's trick, some kind of version of USSJ or both?
At a certain point, the metaphor breaks down, especially with things that aren't techniques but actual transformations. You could say it pushes power out harder, so that the ki hits harder but straightens the hose out - making it harder to bend as you want it to - though that would really be stretching it.
 
This isn't true for Saiyans - SSJ2 has less stamina, and SSJ3 has much less stamina. Unless you're positing that they both have Full-Power variants too?

Regardless, what I'm really hoping for is something Kakara can do without really thinking about it, while doing other things - a way to fiddle with her Ki like a stress ball, whilst accomplishing some practical gain. Any kind of passive "cycling" of our ki would fit, for example.
If you want a cool stress ball trick we could try I just trough of a way to make ourself invisible with solar flash. It's a little bit intense and require we became better with divination, but it's a tecknique we would have to mantain for a long time and would help refine our ki control.

Basically we start a regular solar flash, then instead of interrupping it we try to change the color of the light we produce while dimming that light and creating a shield around us. We also need to have present divination constantly active on the area we are to see the changes from the outside and we use that image to mach the light shield with the world around us to create a charmeleon effect around us.

Since initially mantaining a constant solar flare could be too much we could try manipulate a smaller version of it and use to coat a small object and try to make the shield, color change and divination all the time.
 
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@Deathbybunnies , the votes changed again because people switched to chibi dragon.
At a certain point, the metaphor breaks down, especially with things that aren't techniques but actual transformations. You could say it pushes power out harder, so that the ki hits harder but straightens the hose out - making it harder to bend as you want it to - though that would really be stretching it.
Nah, transformations are changing the material of the hose.
 
This isn't true for Saiyans - SSJ2 has less stamina, and SSJ3 has much less stamina. Unless you're positing that they both have Full-Power variants too?

I don't have any other ideas of how to manipulate the hose, but..

Any idea how USSJ fits in the hose metaphor? In the hose model, water flowing faster increases the force it hits with, but what explanation does it have for something that increases your power but decreases your speed?
There's a perfectly adequate explanation for the Ultimate form, which is that as a side-effect of what it does for your power level, it bulks you up and you become physically musclebound, increasing your mass and decreasing your agility

And what about Roshi's buff form, for that matter? Does that have any relation to either Tabe's or Jaffur's trick, some kind of version of USSJ or both?
There are a LOT of one-off boosts and transformations, and I think that trying to construct a 'unified field theory' that explains all of them is more trouble than it's worth.

Also, much like attempts to analogize electric current as water flowing through a pipe, the analogy may simply break down past a certain point. "Water flow" analogies are often used at the college freshman level, but they break down at the sophomore/junior level. They do not, for example, provide any useful enlightenment once we start talking about alternating current. ;)

If you want a cool stress ball trick we could try I just trough of a way to make ourself invisible with solar flash. It's a little bit intense and require we became better with divination, but it's a tecknique we would have to mantain for a long time and would help refine our ki control.

Basically we start a regular solar flash, then instead of interrupping it we try to change the color of the light we produce while dimming that light and creating a shield around us. We also need to have present divination constantly active on the area we are to see the changes from the outside and we use that image to mach the light shield with the world around us to create a charmeleon effect around us.

Since initially mantaining a constant solar flare could be too much we could try manipulate a smaller version of it and use to coat a small object and try to make the shield, color change and divination all the time.
I think we'd need to first figure out how to transmit ANY kind of image other than just an omnidirectional blast of light using the Solar Flare or related techniques first, THEN try to adapt this.

Also, if successful, this could conceivably mask our physical appearance with active camouflage from optical observation... but we'd be standing out like a flare on ki senses.
 
A bit unrelated but can I mention I find it funny that to socialize with Dazzarel so that we can work to reform him, we will have to take the action "My best friend- Dazzarel"?
 
I think we'd need to first figure out how to transmit ANY kind of image other than just an omnidirectional blast of light using the Solar Flare or related techniques first, THEN try to adapt this.

Also, if successful, this could conceivably mask our physical appearance with active camouflage from optical observation... but we'd be standing out like a flare on ki senses.
yeah the shaping is part of the exercise(it would require doing it step by step before we could use it as anything behind a ki manipulation trainer), also solar flare if I understand it correctly is converting ki to light so I think it's possible to make it so the conversion is instantaneus enough to not be sensed (other exercise added to it, make it fast!)
Basically the whole thing wouldn't be to have camuffage anytime soon, but to refine what we have and to help conditioning ourself to multitask and shape our ki abilities in unusual ways on the fly.

Through I realized after I posted that this execise won't help with incresing the density of our ki, only on manipulation and our tank reserves.

edit: plus having a present 360° vision of the area around us could help reach incredible awareness of the world around us if we train it to be constant.
 
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My lovely wife, upon me informing her of the vote under discussion, actually filed her own opinion. I'd make her an account, but we share a computer, so same IP, which means...well, how would I go about proving that her account wasn't a sock to skeptical and wary mods? Means she can't join SV, but she wouldn't post much elsewhere than my own quests anyway, so she says it's a small loss.

You can talk to the mods since they have had people share the same IP before like Zubzub and his brother lingrab
 
[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interestingexperiences, renders him completely harmless, mayor may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
 
yeah the shaping is part of the exercise(it would require doing it step by step before we could use it as anything behind a ki manipulation trainer), also solar flare if I understand it correctly is converting ki to light so I think it's possible to make it so the conversion is instantaneus enough to not be sensed (other exercise added to it, make it fast!)
Basically the whole thing wouldn't be to have camuffage anytime soon, but to refine what we have and to help conditioning ourself to multitask and shape our ki abilities in unusual ways on the fly.

Through I realized after I posted that this execise won't help with incresing the density of our ki, only on manipulation and our tank reserves.

edit: plus having a present 360° vision of the area around us could help reach incredible awareness of the world around us if we train it to be constant.
Ki sense already grants us this, as far as I can tell; we don't really need to be looking at things to sense their ki. One of the first things people learn in Dragonball when learning to sense energy is how to sense energy blindfolded.
 
Ki sense already grants us this, as far as I can tell; we don't really need to be looking at things to sense their ki. One of the first things people learn in Dragonball when learning to sense energy is how to sense energy blindfolded.
Ironically, Ki invisibility would only really work against people who can't sense you, or as a combat technique for melee fighting - you can't dodge/block if you can't see where the fist is. If we want a stealth ability, we should look into Ki Stealth - as in, hiding some/all of your PL from detection. This would obviously also be very useful for Masquerade purposes, and probably be pretty useful in combat if we could hide 100%. If we could either guarantee control over the SSJ2 transformation or put up a temporary ward capable of hiding an SSJ2's PL for a moment and KO whoever hits SSJ2 first as a Spirit Saiyan the instant they break through, then we could break into SSJ2 and just never go higher than SSJ levels without hiding the extra power. (Obviously as the only Spirit Saiyan, we'd have to go last and either control it or get beaten down by 3/4 other SSJ2s.)

We should also get IT up to Exceptional at some point, if only because we want it open to unlocking Elite Talents, which are likely to be extremely useful given the Exile's situation.

EDIT: Actually, considering just how much Kakara loves ki, it might be worth dropping another of the combat actions for a big Research session on doing weird shit with our ki wait that's what New Tricks is.
 
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Ironically, Ki invisibility would only really work against people who can't sense you, or as a combat technique for melee fighting - you can't dodge/block if you can't see where the fist is. If we want a stealth ability, we should look into Ki Stealth - as in, hiding some/all of your PL from detection. This would obviously also be very useful for Masquerade purposes, and probably be pretty useful in combat if we could hide 100%. If we could either guarantee control over the SSJ2 transformation or put up a temporary ward capable of hiding an SSJ2's PL for a moment and KO whoever hits SSJ2 first as a Spirit Saiyan the instant they break through, then we could break into SSJ2 and just never go higher than SSJ levels without hiding the extra power. (Obviously as the only Spirit Saiyan, we'd have to go last and either control it or get beaten down by 3/4 other SSJ2s.)

We should also get IT up to Exceptional at some point, if only because we want it open to unlocking Elite Talents, which are likely to be extremely useful given the Exile's situation.

EDIT: Actually, considering just how much Kakara loves ki, it might be worth dropping another of the combat actions for a big Research session on doing weird shit with our ki wait that's what New Tricks is.
if we get good enough on light manipulation we could also create illusion probably, witch could help us in combat, but you are right that it is probably impossible to go fast enough in converting ki to light to not be sensed and at the same time suppress our natural ki. Still as I said the thing wasn't a way to create invisibility, but a useful training exercise witch could potentially be partly applicable in combat situation and in creating new techniques on the fly.

Ki sense already grants us this, as far as I can tell; we don't really need to be looking at things to sense their ki. One of the first things people learn in Dragonball when learning to sense energy is how to sense energy blindfolded.

Ki sense just let us know where everything is through, I don't think we can see with it precisely enough to form a 360 wiew of what's around us, plus even if it could, ki can be blocked. Even more sight modes allow us to have more awareness in a fight, witch is important (you can block ke sense or you can block divination, I don't think you can block both)
 
if we get good enough on light manipulation we could also create illusion probably, witch could help us in combat, but you are right that it is probably impossible to go fast enough in converting ki to light to not be sensed and at the same time suppress our natural ki. Still as I said the thing wasn't a way to create invisibility, but a useful training exercise witch could potentially be partly applicable in combat situation and in creating new techniques on the fly.



Ki sense just let us know where everything is through, I don't think we can see with it precisely enough to form a 360 wiew of what's around us, plus even if it could, ki can be blocked. Even more sight modes allow us to have more awareness in a fight, witch is important (you can block ke sense or you can block divination, I don't think you can block both)
It seems a bit involved though - don't get me wrong, Invisibility would be pretty neat, but this seems like something you'd have to dedicate time and actions to training beyond the initial research, instead of just doing it as you do other stuff. And we already have way too many action-sinks as it is

Also, with the exception of things that can't be sensed (like machines, usually) our Exceptional Ki Sense does give almost-perfect perception of our surroundings, though perhaps not in a visual format.

On a barely-related note, we'll be getting our Saiyan Masque up to pretty high levels this year, possibly 100%. Did anyone ever come up with a way to make use of that?
 
Ki sense just let us know where everything is through, I don't think we can see with it precisely enough to form a 360 wiew of what's around us, plus even if it could, ki can be blocked. Even more sight modes allow us to have more awareness in a fight, witch is important (you can block ke sense or you can block divination, I don't think you can block both)
No... that is exactly what it does. It's first used to let goku know where something is that his eyes can't see. Because Mr. Popo moved faster than he could see.

And if ki is being blocked, how would this ki vision let us see it?
 
It seems a bit involved though - don't get me wrong, Invisibility would be pretty neat, but this seems like something you'd have to dedicate time and actions to training beyond the initial research, instead of just doing it as you do other stuff. And we already have way too many action-sinks as it is

Also, with the exception of things that can't be sensed (like machines, usually) our Exceptional Ki Sense does give almost-perfect perception of our surroundings, though perhaps not in a visual format.

On a barely-related note, we'll be getting our Saiyan Masque up to pretty high levels this year, possibly 100%. Did anyone ever come up with a way to make use of that?
meh I'm okay with it not being this particular training exercise, I only through of invisibility because of a post in witch I mused that we could hide our chibi dragon with ki and because I would love for kakara to became an illusionist (it would even fit her theme since she wouldn't hurt people directly with her illusions).
We could do basically the same thing by trying to shape a kamekameha in a shield or by using the masenko as a surgical tool.
I just want to do an exercise witch fuse three or more skills in a single action so we can do more with a single vote.
To give an idea in this invisible trick kakara would have to train ki manipulation, divination, ki to light convertion, ki capacity and multitasking.

No... that is exactly what it does. It's first used to let goku know where something is that his eyes can't see. Because Mr. Popo moved faster than he could see.

And if ki is being blocked, how would this ki vision let us see it?
Isn't divination different from ki vision? I through there was a difference as there is with magic if not I can't understand why nobody but a seer can learn it.
 
Does anyone remember the rules on how spending an action on investigating an avenue of research go? Was it we can spend one on a group of related ideas, or just one per idea?
 
Here is the step by step plan I through up to transform the solar flare in the optical camuffage. Take head that what I want with this is not the invisibility in itself (witch is a neat trick but hardly a sure fire victory tecnique), but the training in itself (I'm not even sure if it will ever possible for kakara to go past the 6° step let alone complete the tecnique as I wrote it).
That said if someone else through up a better way to train exercise multiple skills or want to help redifine my "plan" feel free (and that's obviusly only if it's possible to make it count as a single action)


1) Try to create a mini solar flare (less ki to it and with less light generated)
2) Try to dim the light produced so it is not blinding
3) Try to mantain this mini flare for as long as you can gradually making it something we can mantain for seconds to minutesif not hours at a time
4) Try to shape the light in a oval around a small object (not sure how, here is where kakara would have to think it herself)
5) Try to generate only part of the spectrum of the light so the oval would have a color (4 and 5 are interchangable in what order we do it)
6) Try to repeat step 5 for groups of light particles instead of doing the same for all of them so that we are able to make the shield multicolored
7) Try to generate an image on the oval (probably we will need a mind tecqnique or something to make step 6 instinctive or maybe use divination itself)
8) Redefine the image till it's a good approximation of the area in witch the object and the oval ar located
9) Try to use present vision to watch the oval without seeing it directly
10) Try to mantein Present vision on the oval while manteining the trick for as long as you can till you can do it effortlessly
11) Apply the trick with a full sized solar flare with the light shield focussed on our body
12) Improve how fast you convert ki to light till the light form almost the pico second the ki exit your body or some approssimation of it that would make sensing the tecnique difficoult
 
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Man you take a break from a quest for a month or so and you meet a dragon, get your ass kicked by a dragon, meet your god, meet all your gods, get special one time only training from your god, eat a spirit bomb, humiliate a dragon and make sock puppets.

Interesting read.

[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
I want to see him complaining about headpats he actually enjoys.

Imagine it: Daz claiming that this changes nothing, and He'll Still have his revenge!...And it also itches behind his horns...

Oh my goodness.

....We could give him to our brother as a pet.

"Hey! Have a dragon!"
"What?"
"A dragon! Have fun!"
"Best sister ever."

"Bestest Sister ever."
'Hey Dazz-"
Do not call me that.
"
Right, Dazz. I got you ice cream!"
Fool, I have tasted ice from the deepest depths of space, none could compare-
Dazz is cut off with an unceremonious *thunk* of an ice cream cone being shoved into his mouth, any particular desire for revenge peters off as his tounge touches it.
It's abrosia, a taste that soothes all his ills and reminds him of those satisfied days basking in the light of stars. Just for a moment, he sees it, what that fool Kakara had spoken of, and he thinks that perhaps it isn't so bad for life to live.
Then, with an irritated huff and blinking away the tiniest of tears, he turns away.
It's— It's alright.
Wait until it eats his notes on ki concentration.
bwahahahaha! That's just adorable!
wait...
goddamn you! I'm trying to hate him with all my being!
...
why does the latest tally say I have changed my vote to chibi?

EDIT: Apparently my bro decided to change my vote. Since it was his first vote in a quest, I've decided to keep the vote.
I still want to kill the dragon.
even if those quotes above are adorable...
 
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Doesn't look like the votes been closed yet so I'll toss mine in:

[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
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