The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
actually false, Goku never confronted the Enemy
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
This is patently nonsense, as evidenced by the two huge innovations by Jaffur and Tabe in the last few years. Ki is not perfectly understood, and holds many secrets yet.
Ok, my bad. Gohan tried.
It does not change my point.
Again, does not change my point. Basic limitations are rooted in biology. You cannot change Saiyans biology.
And sure, there are plenty of secrets in Ki. Never denied that. But there is difference between optimizing known thing and getting new avenue that allows one to increase combat effectiveness several fold.
Out of context solutions are best type of solutions.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Both of those things are entirely new avenues multiplying the effectiveness of the fighter, literally severalfold in the case of Overdrive. We have a huge number of potential paths to power already. We do not need a chance at the dragon's dodgy powerup.
Artanis Prime
Knight of the Fallen Dream
- Location
- Matrix of Leadership
Very true, but keep in mind that as a Super Saiyan we already out power any Exile who's not a fellow Royal by orders of magnitude, unless we're dealing with a full on Super Saiyan revolt going Spirit Saiyan again is like bringing a Nuke to a Water Gun fight. Sure its a win, but why would you do that?
Just from what we know about the Enemy and him fighting Uub, a SSJ3 Trunk's I think it was, and a newly SSJ Blue Gohan (I think he went Blue there, but he may have only done something comparable <shrug>) in quick succession I don't think any fight with the Enemy is going to be anything so simple as a straight PL contest.
Probably going to rely more on dealing with out of context problems and divining his spells and techniques then just punching. Not that PL isn't going to help, just don't think that past a certain threshold, whatever that is, will matter so much.
Kakara sort of has her hands full of ways to get strong, the main issue is she's too busy to focus too much on them.
I would very much disagree with that when it comes to ultimate confrontation with Enemy.
It is potential final opponent of the quest. Existential threat that hangs like a sword over Exiles. Centuries old being that defeated them before. Saying that we don't need all tools, options and tricks to win strikes me as serious overconfidence. We do. We need everything we can get, there.
Yep. Exactly my point. We need as much of out of context approach as possible. We know Enemy can deal with Ki. We know he can deal with seers. I think it's safe bet that he can deal with magic.
To win we need something that would come as out-of-context solution.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The powerup has huge drawbacks, and it would be a huge action sink when we just have straight-up better paths to power to sink actions into. But the vote is pretty much over, so I'm not gonna keep retreading this old ground.
- Location
- USA
So what move do you guys want to learn from the ancestors next? I'm leaning fusion, but I'm sure there are other lost things that could be worth looking into.
Maybe talk to Bulma about her tech, so we can bring designs back and at least make copies of some things we've lost. You don't have to know why something works to follow directions to make something that does. It'd probably have the problem with us needing to get really good at memorizing things, but that'd probably be easier than us actually learning it.
Maybe talk to Bulma about her tech, so we can bring designs back and at least make copies of some things we've lost. You don't have to know why something works to follow directions to make something that does. It'd probably have the problem with us needing to get really good at memorizing things, but that'd probably be easier than us actually learning it.
Saying "straight-up better paths" is Your opinion - but please note, that at this point it is only opinion. Not a fact.
We do not know how effective it would be. We will not know until we try.
I can imagine several scenarios where sealing Dazarel in Kakara would passively give Kakara dragon traits. Or, for example, affected Ozaru transormation. Or allowed her to get her own active psychic abilities.
We do not know.
Hell, in extremely optimistic scenario, it could allow Kakara to transform into a dragon! Or dragon-super-saijan hybrid transformation! Not very likely, but it can happen. And isn't it a nice picture to imagine?
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Artanis Prime
Knight of the Fallen Dream
- Location
- Matrix of Leadership
While not a bad idea, I don't think we should make any plans that hinge solely on being able to just ask dead people. That seems like the sort of solution we're only going to be allowed to use a handful of times at most before the Kai's just say no.
The Good news is we don't necessarily have to talk to Bulma herself, bear in mind that somewhere the Exiles have a bunch of the Brief's clan designs and blueprints, even ones for FTL Drives that they had at the fall of Earth they just didn't have time to build that sound better then the ones the Galaxy is currently using. So we can always go looking for that stuff, without having to go to Bulma directly.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[x] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
The problem with your logic is dragon powers aren't free action economy wise, I guarantee it. If they even exist as a route.
We need as much as we can get, certainly. We do not need literally everything, because we cannot get literally everything. Therefore, the dragon powers, assuming they meaningfully exist as a thing we can get, must balance in a cost-benefit analysis vs spending those actions elsewhere.
Many disagree with you that it would be worth it, clearly. And you assume much in your statements about the Enemy.
We know he has anti ki countermeasures. We know he has anti seer countermeasures. We can bet he has other categories as well.
He does not, that we know of, have infinitely and absolute counters to these categories. Your framing of him being able to 'deal with' ki implies ki necessarily is worthless against him. Dazarel could 'deal with' ki, right up until he couldn't. You do not know for sure the Enemy can't be beat by ki techniques.
And conveniently, you assume that just because psychic powers and Dragons were an out of context problem for us, they necessarily will be for the Enemy. This strikes me as decidedly foolish- as far as we know, Overdrive and Jaffur's trick both are brand new to the galaxy. A long lived species of psychic Dragons necessarily is not.
Nothing is ever free, true.
But please consider 'out of context' approach when if comes to Enemy.
- If Kakara have it, and Enemy don't she can increase her effectiveness several times over.
- If Enemy have it, and Kakara don't - she is have a big problem.
- If both have it - they will likely at least counter each other to some degree. It would negate disadvantage.
Either way, getting access to potentially 'out of context' solution seems very much worth it. Such ability can server as multiplier of combat effectiveness.
Hell, usualy there is overlap between types of energies (like with Ki and magic, where huge power level boosts magic proportionally). Imagine what could Kakara do if she had Dazarel psychic abilities and powered them with Genki Dama.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
If you're going to go that rampant with the speculation, I can do it too - maybe the first time we use the power Dazarel kills someone with it from within us. As you say, we don't know.
There's a whole bunch of other reasons too beyond the crappiness of the powerup, but they've all be said before in the thread and I'm really not looking for an argument - I'm going to bed soon.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The big limitations on Spirit Saiyan are:
1) It isn't personal power; you don't bring it with you unless you bring the planet itself somehow. This is a problem if we ever go into space (as seems fairly plausible).
2) Hella long wind-up on that pitch, if someone has the sense to interrupt you you're toast.
3) We can't use it without a bunch of people agreeing to it, which is a handicap if you want to train with it, or to do something ambiguous and "hold my beer-
This ties into (1).
Literally every Exile knows about it, though. Any Exile willing to fight Kakara would do anything in their power to interrupt her attempt to charge up the Spirit Bomb precisely to avoid having to deal with her in Spirit Saiyan form.
It might be.
Given the reason to think it might be enough to detect over interstellar distances even at the lowest level it can be damped to, the fact that it is suspected/known to cause violent insanity, and the fact that the royals have a strong custom that even trying is punishable by death, we're not going there any time soon.
I doubt it. Jaffur's ki compression and Tabe's overdrive are totally unprecedented in Exile history. Kakara (re)invented Golden Oozaru, a form which may never have existed in this timeline. The Exiles still don't know everything they can and cannot do.
Moreover, remember that the Exile population has been growing rapidly over the last couple of generations, as Apra and Yammar were originally hoping to reunite the houses in 2-3 generations' time. It's conceivable that a majority, or at least a large fraction, of all Exiles in the 300-year history of the culture, are still alive. And most of the energy of previous now-dead generations of Exiles would have been focused on reinventing or honing lost techniques or partially lost ones that became corrupted over time. It's entirely possible that we're doing more original research on ki manipulation in this generation than any previous generation had a chance to do.
You know, we can still interrogate Dazarel if he's a chibi dragon. If nothing else we can Mind Delve him.
Point of order: Goku never tried, Gohan did.
Second point of order: Making a LOT of assumptions there about how there's only one path to victory in this quest. I don't buy that, since Poptart knew about the 'final boss' well before we started. I mean, if we'd voted to play Jaffur Quest, we'd probably have straight-up murdered the dragon, and where would we be then? For that matter, the sequence of events that makes it possible for us to put an unbreakable magical seal of any kind on the dragon was the result of us unforeseeably critting an attempt to use an obscure power-up that we only had access to as a result of passing yet another roll to compensate for failing yet another roll that was the result of our collective enthusiasm for a specific technique Poptart could not possibly have been sure in advance we'd try to reinvent.
It beggars belief that Poptart created a game that could only be won through such an improbable sequence of events, moves, and rolls.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
... No. Out of context problems are unknown unknowns. The Enemy is probably not a Seer, and yet could counter Seers. Kakara is not a Sorcerer, and yet does not auto lose to magic. Your logic hinges on the idea that an ancient Dragon from, likely, a species of such beings using identifiably psychic powers would be an unknown unknown to the Enemy... who knew about Seers when he first stepped on screen when that seems quite a bit rarer.
Your logic is flawed, assuming because it surprised us it would surprise the enemy. Far better cases can be made for the as far as we know never previously existent ki techniques to be unknown unknowns than for a common biologically rooted ability, for our target.
And of course the option looks good if you wildly fantasize about amazing good possibilities we have no actual reason to believe will work while ignoring entirely plausible failure points, such as 'dragon powers may be 100% unavailable to us'.
As for first doubt. Nope. We have WOG for it. We can shut him down at any moment.
It was stated that seal is:
- Safe: no chance of influencing Kakara via psychic tricks.
- Secure: no chance of it being disrupted. Neither by internal or external manipulation.
- Comfortable: as Kakara could always mute him, so no unwanted commentary or disruption of daily life.
- Fully controlable: a blank wall - and which we decide how permeable it is.
- Location
- USA
I'd say it's optimistic for both of those to be new to the Galaxy. While almost certainly not well known, Overdrive in particular seems like a prime candidate for independent discovery.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Firstly, we have word of sorcerers, not god. While I'm not as firm on that as an issue as Simon, it's an important distinction.
Secondly, good luck getting Dazarel's cooperation while treating him as a goodie piñata we shut up whenever he annoys us. Great plan to get his cooperation there.
Thirdly, none of those actually says if we let him use his power, he can't kill people with it. Neither does it ensure it will be safe if we develop 'dragon powers', for all we know it will turn us into a giant planet destroying rage dragon who has no ability to not eat Garenhuld voluntarily.
You know, the kind of risk Super Saiyan 2 holds.
Reminder that Ki Sensing was new to the galaxy in canon. That extremely basic trick all the earth fighters knew was an out of context problem for an entire galactic empire. Moreover, I qualified it with 'as far as we know' for a reason- we know, necessarily, that Dazarel has previously existed to be studied. The tricks might be new.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
He was I checked.
I was going to shitpost about him not being there, but Poptart preempted it by having him be there.
truly Poptarts precog game is strong.
Can You deny, that Dazarel toyed with all strongest exiles and won without scratch, despite his nominally much smaller power level?
Effectiveness multiplier, there.
Not what I said. Not what I was pointing on. Question is who have it, and whether it can be used as multiplier in combat.
Please note what exactly was said in my post. I was repeatedly saying "we don't know", and listing some optimistic scenarios while explicitelly noting that those are optimistic ones. Please do not re-interpred what I've said, OK?
I believe it was confirmed in discussion that followed. There was plenty of back and forth about how safe and secure seal would be. And the answer was in general area of extremely secure.
Oh, that is another issue entirely - and interesting one.
Honestly, I would like for Dazarel to be grumpy at first! But we have plenty for work with, here...
...but getting into how exactly now, would be a bit of derail. Suffice to say, we have many ways of confincing, explaining and generaly discussing things. And Kakara is, thankfully, very good on social.
Me too.
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- Location
- USA
Frieza was supposedly the strongest person in the Galaxy, and your power level couldn't really change beyond what you were born with.
Canon is full of problems like that, so we really shouldn't expect something like Overdrive to be a unique thing based on canon details. That doesn't make it useless*, just not an Ace in the Hole like Spirit Saiyan, higher level transformations, or fusion
*although it seems to be so compared to Jaffur's technique
