Dragon Ball: After the End

[Artanis Prime]

Hrmm guys, random thought about if/when we eventually get around to developing Kakara's unique style. Could we make a style built on Spirit Saiyan/Spirit Bomb?

By that I mean one where we would passively connect to the same flow of universal energy that we draw power from for the Spirit Bomb while using the Style? Like obviously this would be no where near the boost of actually using the Spirit Bomb for an attack or power up, and Spirit Bomb would obviously be one of the supported moves...probably Team Fighting as well due to syncing with our allies and surroundings. I am really not sure how that would work mechanically, don't really know the system. But just a random idea that popped into my head <shrug> just an Idea

 

[JackOfAll]

It beggars belief that Poptart created a game that could only be won through such an improbable sequence of events, moves, and rolls.

Click to shrink...

Heh, I never assumed anything like that. But there is matter of what it means 'winning' the quest, and which road is the best for it.

Enemy seems to me as something close to insurmountable. Final opponent. Ultimate challenge. We do not necessarily need to win a battle, here. The way I suspect quest ends goes, is something like that:
- bad end: Exiles die out.
- neutral end: some of Exile escapes.
- good end: majority of Exiles finds new secure home to grow in peace (and crush Enemy in future)
- perfect end: Enemy is defeated.

I do not know, and I'm just guessing (obviously), but defeating Enemy may not be a goal at all. We do not need to kill him. What we need is for Exiles to prosper. Defeating Enemy may feature at all only in 'perfect' scenario.

Now, we can take many roads. Jaffur quest would likely go the road of extreme combat effectiveness. Ki tricks, skills, techniquest. None of those is guaranteed to win. None of those is guaranteed to make winning even possible. But opportunities to strengthen oneself appears. It would be matter of us using those opportunities.

We play Kakara. We were lucky and rolled a seer, so we have psychic character. And now due to series of extremely lucky rolls we have opportunity to gain an advantage.

Does not using opportunity means that quest it unbeatable? No. We can always choose another road, and there will be other opportunities in future. But does getting it means that quest will be easier? Likely, yes. Especially since it fits Kakara talents and personality very well.

So no, It's not matter of losing or winning. It's more matter of using opportunity that presents itself to us.

 

[Terrabrand]

Can You deny, that Dazarel toyed with all strongest exiles and won without scratch, despite his nominally much smaller power level?

Effectiveness multiplier, there.
Not what I said. Not what I was pointing on. Question is who have it, and whether it can be used as multiplier in combat.

Please note what exactly was said in my post. I was repeatedly saying "we don't know", and listing some optimistic scenarios while explicitelly noting that those are optimistic ones. Please do not re-interpred what I've said, OK?

I believe it was confirmed in discussion that followed. There was plenty of back and forth about how safe and secure seal would be. And the answer was in general area of extremely secure.

Click to shrink...

Holy spaghetti posting, Batman.

And no. You assume effectiveness multiplier. We know effectiveness increaser. Not multiplier. Dazarel fought above his power level- but for all we know, he has an equivalent 'psychic power level', which, if it does not increase more easily than our power level, could be essentially a simple additive effect that, for all we know, trains slower, assuming it happens at all.

And if you are seriously telling me that you intentionally only listing hilariously optimistic scenarios was somehow neutral and unbiased... Well. Perhaps you believe that. But the fact that you are favorable to Dazarel As Super Powers and unfavorable to the value of the competition is inherently dishonest debating practice.

See, I could do that too. I could claim, baselessly, that there's a chance Overdrive will somehow neuter the Enemy's anti ki measures, and surely since we don't know for sure that we can get Dragon Powers there is no such thing.

But such practices are dishonest, painting a certain narrative, even if you insist 'it's all maybes'.

As to safety, the back and forth only addressed having Dazarel sealed in us. It in no way addressed any possible derived Dragon Powers.

 

[zephraim]

Woke up...
See the thread in flames...
Gets a cup of coffee.
Still votes for Head dragon

 

[zephraim]

Question: Whats the plan if the Dragon discovers the conspiracy?

 

[Simon_Jester]

As for first doubt. Nope. We have WOG for it. We can shut him down at any moment.

Click to shrink...

We can't shut him down from using his powers if we tell him to use his powers and let him use his powers. Or rather, we can shut him down after he uses his powers in a way we disapprove of, but not before.

We know Dazarel is cunning enough to use telekinesis to crush hearts or even perforate eardrums when he deems subtlety to be in his interests. He'll at least get one shot with his powers before we lock him back down, and every time we let him free we give him another shot.

The ward can't be impenetrable and penetrable at the same time, and the goals of using the dragon's power and confining the dragon's power are mutually exclusive.

It was stated that seal is:
- Safe: no chance of influencing Kakara via psychic tricks.
- Secure: no chance of it being disrupted. Neither by internal or external manipulation.
- Comfortable: as Kakara could always mute him, so no unwanted commentary or disruption of daily life.
- Fully controlable: a blank wall - and which we decide how permeable it is.

Click to shrink...

If we're trying to tap the dragon for power, by necessity we will need to let the barrier down. An invincible wall is an invincible wall- right up until you decide you want to be able to look out the window and cut a hole in it.

After that? Not so much.

...

Can You deny, that Dazarel toyed with all strongest exiles and won without scratch, despite his nominally much smaller power level?

Effectiveness multiplier, there.

Click to shrink...

And if it turns out that his effectiveness multiplier is from "being a dragon with a dragon body," not from some technique we can learn?

I mean, Namekians can regrow severed limbs in moments. That doesn't mean we could imprison a Namekian and interrogate him until he taught us the secret of limb regeneration.

Please note what exactly was said in my post. I was repeatedly saying "we don't know", and listing some optimistic scenarios while explicitelly noting that those are optimistic ones. Please do not re-interpred what I've said, OK?

Click to shrink...

The thing is, your argument "we should do X" and "X is the only path to victory" is predicated entirely on those optimistic scenarios. And you're saying we're screwed if we don't do X.

Are you saying you think we're all screwed unless we follow this very specific path that is only even available to us because of an unforeseeable combination of weird dice rolls? Or are you overstating how pivotal these dragon powers really are? Pick one, because it's got to be one or the other.

I believe it was confirmed in discussion that followed. There was plenty of back and forth about how safe and secure seal would be. And the answer was in general area of extremely secure.

Click to shrink...

Yes, but that was in the context of us, y'know, not letting the dragon have freedom of action. A lot of prisons are very secure, if you don't let the prisoner out to do something for you. Once you give the prisoner means to reach past the bars and walls of his cell, any security measures you may have get a lot weaker.

Frieza was supposedly the strongest person in the Galaxy, and your power level couldn't really change beyond what you were born with.

Canon is full of problems like that...

Click to shrink...

Eh? I don't agree. I think the core point is still pretty solid- namely, that the "rules" of galactic ki-using society were pretty predictable and well known, until suddenly they weren't, after being exposed to a few destabilizing new 'technologies' invented in an isolated backwater and combined in useful ways. Namely, highly effective power level training, and ki sensing.

...so we really shouldn't expect something like Overdrive to be a unique thing based on canon details. That doesn't make it useless*, just not an Ace in the Hole like Spirit Saiyan, higher level transformations, or fusion

*although it seems to be so compared to Jaffur's technique.

Click to shrink...

Actually, I think Overdrive is likely to be MORE useful as an ace in the hole. Ki compression increases your effective power level by some fixed percentage, and if it's 5% at Poor, I doubt it goes up much past, oh, 50% at the highest levels readily available to us. Good, potentially decisive against a roughly equal opponent, but not enough to let us 'spike' and punch vastly above our weight.

Tactical evidence supports this; during the battle, Apra was the one who was doing the most to really hurt the dragon as far as I can tell, and as Poptart confirmed, it would have been Apra going into maximum overdrive that would have given (the rest of) us a chance to survive if Kakara hadn't pulled off Spirit Saiyan.

What Jaffur's technique does is provide a significant power level boost for strong-willed individuals (like both Jaffur and Kakara) that is persistent and sustainable. Which is very useful, very useful indeed, but only decisive against roughly evenly matched opponents. Or if it turns out to be a prerequisite for something more significant like "ritual-free ascension to godhood."

 

[zephraim]

I ask because I always want a contingency plan for everything

 

[JackOfAll]

Holy spaghetti posting, Batman.

And no. You assume effectiveness multiplier. We know effectiveness increaser. Not multiplier. Dazarel fought above his power level- but for all we know, he has an equivalent 'psychic power level', which, if it does not increase more easily than our power level, could be essentially a simple additive effect that, for all we know, trains slower, assuming it happens at all.

And if you are seriously telling me that you intentionally only listing hilariously optimistic scenarios was somehow neutral and unbiased... Well. Perhaps you believe that. But the fact that you are favorable to Dazarel As Super Powers and unfavorable to the value of the competition is inherently dishonest debating practice.

See, I could do that too. I could claim, baselessly, that there's a chance Overdrive will somehow neuter the Enemy's anti ki measures, and surely since we don't know for sure that we can get Dragon Powers there is no such thing.

But such practices are dishonest, painting a certain narrative, even if you insist 'it's all maybes'.

As to safety, the back and forth only addressed having Dazarel sealed in us. It in no way addressed any possible derived Dragon Powers.

Click to shrink...

Not to be rude - but You are taking it out of context. One person tells that sealing Dazarel will definitely be crappy power boost. I'm telling that 'we do not know that' and pointing few possitive scenarios. But it have nothing to do with dishonesty on my part.

Likewise I do not believe that I am using "inherently dishonest debating practices". It irks me to be accused for that.


<sigh> You know what? I think I'll just call it a day. It's after 4 AM my time... and I've just been called dishonest and accused of dishonest practices. I am too tired to go on about that, as frustrating and unjust I believe it to be. So nope, nope, nope. Sleep mode engaged, I'll think about it tomorrow.

Good night to You all.

 

[Cariyaga]

The ward can't be impenetrable and penetrable at the same time, and the goals of using the dragon's power and confining the dragon's power are mutually exclusive.

Click to shrink...

No, but it can as permissible as Kakara desires. She can allow him a little of his powers without allowing him to crush a mountain.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Not to be rude - but You are taking it out of context. One person tells that sealing Dazarel will definitely be crappy power boost. I'm telling that 'we do not know that' and pointing few possitive scenarios. But it have nothing to do with dishonesty on my part.

Click to shrink...

Oh, that was me - I was referring to the power that the Dragon supposedly gave in the RP. It got "spoilt" because it was the basis on which people were introduced to the head-seal, as a potential benefit, and - assuming the RP spoiler the plan is based on is valid, which is by WOG not guaranteed - the powerup was effectively a corrupting super-powered evil side.

No, but it can as permissible as Kakara desires. She can allow him a little of his powers without allowing him to crush a mountain.

Click to shrink...

I don't think we actually know that, because anything rrelated to "getting powers out of the dragon" has been firmly stated by WOG to be completely unknown. It being a 100% on/off switch is perfectly feasible.

 

[Terrabrand]

Actually, I think Overdrive is likely to be MORE useful as an ace in the hole. Ki compression increases your effective power level by some fixed percentage, and if it's 5% at Poor, I doubt it goes up much past, oh, 50% at the highest levels readily available to us. Good, potentially decisive against a roughly equal opponent, but not enough to let us 'spike' and punch vastly above our weight.

Tactical evidence supports this; during the battle, Apra was the one who was doing the most to really hurt the dragon as far as I can tell, and as Poptart confirmed, it would have been Apra going into maximum overdrive that would have given (the rest of) us a chance to survive if Kakara hadn't pulled off Spirit Saiyan.

What Jaffur's technique does is provide a significant power level boost for strong-willed individuals (like both Jaffur and Kakara) that is persistent and sustainable. Which is very useful, very useful indeed, but only decisive against roughly evenly matched opponents. Or if it turns out to be a prerequisite for something more significant like "ritual-free ascension to godhood."

Click to shrink...

Jaffur's thing is more optimized for the exiles status quo. For the sake of discussion, using the 50% figure you throw out under the understanding we don't know it's actual limits... It's ideal in the Saiyan society where, between restrictions on transformations and biological power caps, Jaffur had a set maximum power level to look forward to. As far as we've seen, when you get good at it it's essentially stable and can be kept always on at little or no apparent disadvantage. So, for example, for Jaffur's ambition of killing his father, having it... would be as good as being 50% stronger, when he can't get even 1% stronger than Vegeta Vegeta. Likewise, he'd simply be more powerful than any competing super saiyan 1 who didn't know the trick in general.

Overdrive is explosively more powerful but bears a direct disadvantage that, so far as we know, can't be eliminated. Reduced to a degree, I expect, but given the very way it works is by burning your reserves faster, that's likely a given. Thus, even if you know Overdrive, there will be situations it is not better than not using in, due to needing endurance over immediate strength. For, say, killing the Enemy, it may well be the case that Overdrive is simply better, if Jaffur's compression thing is unable to do the job.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Jaffur's thing is more optimized for the exiles status quo. For the sake of discussion, using the 50% figure you throw out under the understanding we don't know it's actual limits... It's ideal in the Saiyan society where, between restrictions on transformations and biological power caps, Jaffur had a set maximum power level to look forward to. As far as we've seen, when you get good at it it's essentially stable and can be kept always on at little or no apparent disadvantage. So, for example, for Jaffur's ambition of killing his father, having it... would be as good as being 50% stronger, when he can't get even 1% stronger than Vegeta Vegeta. Likewise, he'd simply be more powerful than any competing super saiyan 1 who didn't know the trick in general.

Overdrive is explosively more powerful but bears a direct disadvantage that, so far as we know, can't be eliminated. Reduced to a degree, I expect, but given the very way it works is by burning your reserves faster, that's likely a given. Thus, even if you know Overdrive, there will be situations it is not better than not using in, due to needing endurance over immediate strength. For, say, killing the Enemy, it may well be the case that Overdrive is simply better, if Jaffur's compression thing is unable to do the job.

Click to shrink...

It's also possible that they might stack - I don't think anything about "moves through the hose faster" contradicts "squeeze the nozzle".

 

[Terrabrand]

It's also possible that they might stack - I don't think anything about "moves through the hose faster" contradicts "squeeze the nozzle".

Click to shrink...

Possible, though even if so 'which first' is still a question that hinges on which we expect to have better per action payoff.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Possible, though even if so 'which first' is still a question that hinges on which we expect to have better per action payoff.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's fair. Even as I'm considering dropping down to a single combat action on Tien Style, I'm thinking to myself "but not dropping Ki Concentration obviously, free effective PL's too big a deal."

 

[Simon_Jester]

No, but it can as permissible as Kakara desires. She can allow him a little of his powers without allowing him to crush a mountain.

Click to shrink...

A little of his powers may be enough to rupture an aorta without crushing a mountain.

More seriously, a little of his power won't be enough to be the kind of decisive force multiplier people are looking for; we'd need a LOT.

Hrmm guys, random thought about if/when we eventually get around to developing Kakara's unique style. Could we make a style built on Spirit Saiyan/Spirit Bomb?

By that I mean one where we would passively connect to the same flow of universal energy that we draw power from for the Spirit Bomb while using the Style? Like obviously this would be no where near the boost of actually using the Spirit Bomb for an attack or power up, and Spirit Bomb would obviously be one of the supported moves...probably Team Fighting as well due to syncing with our allies and surroundings. I am really not sure how that would work mechanically, don't really know the system. But just a random idea that popped into my head <shrug> just an Idea

Click to shrink...

It's worth experimenting with- can we get a meaningful power-up WITHOUT the extremely long charge-up time during which we are hilariously vulnerable?

So no, It's not matter of losing or winning. It's more matter of using opportunity that presents itself to us.

Click to shrink...

And yet, you are presenting it as 'the only way,' while ignoring numerous potential drawbacks and complications of your proposal and behaving as if other possible options either do not exist or are not relevant.

We had this conversation, on a much higher level.

Question: Whats the plan if the Dragon discovers the conspiracy?

Click to shrink...

If Dazarel already knew about the conspiracy before we slapped down a mind shield, it invites the question of why the dragon didn't take advantage of that earlier. Given the dragon's psychology and intentions it is very likely to not have known or cared about details of internal saiyan politics, given that it was planning to kill and eat all the saiyans in question.

If Dazarel gets chibified, stopping him from learning about the conspiracy is going to be very easy, rather easier than stopping, say, Berra from finding out. Presumably Berra doesn't already know...

[Though it would be darkly amusing if he did know, and for some reason wasn't stopping us]

Not to be rude - but You are taking it out of context. One person tells that sealing Dazarel will definitely be crappy power boost. I'm telling that 'we do not know that' and pointing few possitive scenarios. But it have nothing to do with dishonesty on my part.

Click to shrink...

Your tone is, to people with reading comprehension, very strongly suggestive of the idea that you sincerely believe that absorbing Dazarel will provide a massive power boost and is likely to be our only hope of defeating the Enemy.

Either you are communicating poorly and then being surprised when you are misunderstood, or you are backpedaling from overly broad claims by saying you were "just talking about some scenarios."

If you really were "just talking about some scenarios," and did not intend to speak as though you were exaggerating the advantages of head-dragon while totally blinding yourself to the disadvantages... You would have done well to have approached this discussion very, very differently.

Jaffur's thing is more optimized for the exiles status quo.

Click to shrink...

That is true- and for the strategic logic in play as of game start, where the status quo seemed nigh-unbreakable, it certainly held. Now, we know that at least two outside context problems have arisen in the past few years alone, and dealing with the second one is likely to allow us, if not force us, to radically alter the status quo further. Plus of course the Sealing itself has massively disrupted the political order as Jaffur knew it prior to his being sealed..

Then again, overdrive would have been pretty damn explosive within the old status quo, too. For a few shining minutes, it lets the average saiyan warrior punch like a newborn super-saiyan. For those same few shining minutes, it would let a newborn super-saiyan punch like a fully trained and empowered royal. There is a reason why Tabe's mother was terrified that Berra and Kakara of all people would take her son and execute him for revealing such a technique.

 

[Terrabrand]

Then again, overdrive would have been pretty damn explosive within the old status quo, too. For a few shining minutes, it lets the average saiyan warrior punch like a newborn super-saiyan. For those same few shining minutes, it would let a newborn super-saiyan punch like a fully trained and empowered royal. There is a reason why Tabe's mother was terrified that Berra and Kakara of all people would take her son and execute him for revealing such a technique.

Click to shrink...

Well, Kakara was also still a bit of a mystery as I recall, but yes. This is true. However, particularly for Jaffur's place in the status quo, Overdrive is essentially objectively worse.

 

[Bakkasama]

Actually, I think Overdrive is likely to be MORE useful as an ace in the hole. Ki compression increases your effective power level by some fixed percentage, and if it's 5% at Poor, I doubt it goes up much past, oh, 50% at the highest levels readily available to us. Good, potentially decisive against a roughly equal opponent, but not enough to let us 'spike' and punch vastly above our weight.

Tactical evidence supports this; during the battle, Apra was the one who was doing the most to really hurt the dragon as far as I can tell, and as Poptart confirmed, it would have been Apra going into maximum overdrive that would have given (the rest of) us a chance to survive if Kakara hadn't pulled off Spirit Saiyan.

What Jaffur's technique does is provide a significant power level boost for strong-willed individuals (like both Jaffur and Kakara) that is persistent and sustainable. Which is very useful, very useful indeed, but only decisive against roughly evenly matched opponents. Or if it turns out to be a prerequisite for something more significant like "ritual-free ascension to godhood."

Click to shrink...

Actually, Jaffur's ki concentration was giving him a 100% increase when we first fought in the prologue. He was fighting at a 10 millon level when his PL was 5M and one of his attacks reached 20M when he did kaioken. He probably got better at it since he was sealed too.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, that's fair. Even as I'm considering dropping down to a single combat action on Tien Style, I'm thinking to myself "but not dropping Ki Concentration obviously, free effective PL's too big a deal."

Click to shrink...

For next year's needs, I think Ki Concentration serves our purposes better. Unless the aliens have some really ridiculous hole cards, we don't need to increase our power level, and certainly not at the expense of stamina when fighting huge hordes of alien soldiers. Concentration lets us be effective without revealing quite as much of our power, without exhausting ourselves.

I'm also more worried about the aliens figuring out Overdrive than Ki Concentration, because Overdrive seems to be in some way 'simpler.' I could be wrong about that, admittedly. But if I'm not, I don't want the aliens suddenly pulling a x10 power level increase out of a hat at the cost of a x0.1 endurance malus and trying to beat Maya to a pulp in the few minutes of power they are thus allowed.

 

[Artanis Prime]

It's worth experimenting with- can we get a meaningful power-up WITHOUT the extremely long charge-up time during which we are hilariously vulnerable?

Click to shrink...

Very true, also thinking about it, since we'd be building off our Tien style base, maybe with this theoretical Spirit Style we could power Kikoho's and such by using the life energy around us instead of out own, ether making them more powerful or perhaps just mitigating the normal stamina cost or something.

 

[Terrabrand]

Actually, Jaffur's ki concentration was giving him a 100% increase when we first fought in the prologue. He was fighting at a 10 millon level when his PL was 5M and one of his attacks reached 20M when he did kaioken. He probably got better at it since he was sealed too.

Click to shrink...

Not neccesarily. In addition to the concentration he had specific techniques. It's possible they were eg 33% stronger than 'should be'.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

It's worth experimenting with- can we get a meaningful power-up WITHOUT the extremely long charge-up time during which we are hilariously vulnerable?

Click to shrink...

While valid, I'd just like to note that Multiform worked fantastically here for this. Though given that any fight we pull out a Genki Dama in effectively has a timer until we win, perhaps we should focus more on endurance-draining techniques like Overdrive than we would otherwise have done?

After Ki Concentration though, free PL remains nuts.

Actually, Jaffur's ki concentration was giving him a 100% increase when we first fought in the prologue. He was fighting at a 10 millon level when his PL was 5M and one of his attacks reached 20M when he did kaioken. He probably got better at it since he was sealed too.

Click to shrink...

I suspect that's partially his style and techniques as well though - I'm doubtful it's that strong, even if it is really good.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Actually, Jaffur's ki concentration was giving him a 100% increase when we first fought in the prologue. He was fighting at a 10 millon level when his PL was 5M and one of his attacks reached 20M when he did kaioken. He probably got better at it since he was sealed too.

Click to shrink...

Hm. Well, I suppose the progression could be something like

Poor 5
Unpromising 10
Unlearned 15
Competent 25
Talented 50
Excellent 100

I don't know.

Not neccesarily. In addition to the concentration he had specific techniques. It's possible they were eg 33% stronger than 'should be'.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I mean we KNOW that techniques like the Kamehameha and Makankosappo hit above a fighter's typical power level (e.g. allowing Power Level 400 Piccolo to drill Power Level 1000+ Raditz).

Plus, we were at twelve million during that fight. If Jaffur's effective power level really HAD been at ten million, he should have been able to hurt us. Because that's only about a 15-20% gap (depending on whose point of view you look at it from), and Jaffur had a major skill advantage over us.

Remember that Meerak, fighting us across a gap of power level noticeably wider than "ten to twelve," was able to break Kakara's arm, and that we were barely able to keep him from using his ki as a signal beacon during the battle. Meerak might well have been more skillful than eight year old Jaffur, granted, but the point remains.

 

[Artanis Prime]

Unless the aliens have some really ridiculous hole cards, we don't need to increase our power level

Click to shrink...

Well giving the aliens reaction to Maya its safe to assume that the Exiles could paste the Invasion if they weren't self handy capping themselves to under Maya's PL. Save for Tamar himself perhaps.

If it turns out Tamar has some sort of Transformation/Kaio-Ken/Overdrive equivalent that say puts him up to far for our self handy capped PL's we always have the option of just Powering up, it would be a last resort and arguably a failure condition, but it is an option. Also one of the reasons I want to get Ki Refinement up to the point we can hold it in Hand to Hand is since it has a very obvious and weird effect we could use it and spike our PL, claiming we get our boost from it.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Well giving the aliens reaction to Maya its safe to assume that the Exiles could paste the Invasion if they weren't self handy capping themselves to under Maya's PL. Save for Tamar himself perhaps.

If it terms out Tamar has some sort of Transformation/Kaio-Ken/Overdrive equivalent that say puts him up to far for our self handy capped PL's we always have the option of just Powering up, it would be a last resort and arguably a failure condition, but it is an option. Also one of the reasons I want to get Ki Refinement up to the point we can hold it in Hand to Hand is since it has a very obvious and weird effect we could use it and spike our PL, claiming we get our boost from it.

Click to shrink...

It's an undetectable spike though (beyond moving faster etc.) because it's not really increasing our PL. That's part of why it's so good.

EDIT: Oh I see, you're suggesting also increasing our PL a bit while using it and claiming it's a PL booster with a greater effect? I'm not so sure about that, but it's not a suggestion I'd discard out of hand.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Oh - you're saying that the absolute minimum an SSJ2 can modulate down to without dropping into SSJ is still too high for safety reasons? I guess unless we do try to research Ki Stealth, that's still a no-go then.

Vaguely related note: Would Kakara enjoy researching new things to do with Ki, like Ki Stealth or attempting to mix the PLs of Oozaru and Human/Saiyan enough for it to be even vaguely de-stressing? And would we take any penalties for researching multiple different projects during the same year? In fact, I've forgotten the exact rules on Research actions again - would you mind awfully putting them in the Rules section on the front page, or a threadmark?

Click to shrink...

No, it's that they doubt that a newly-transformed SSJ2 can modulate power level at all, let alone enough.

She would, and you would not. I will find a good space to put a notice.

He was I checked.

I was going to shitpost about him not being there, but Poptart preempted it by having him be there.

truly Poptarts precog game is strong.

Click to shrink...

I see all and know all.

Actually, Jaffur's ki concentration was giving him a 100% increase when we first fought in the prologue. He was fighting at a 10 millon level when his PL was 5M and one of his attacks reached 20M when he did kaioken. He probably got better at it since he was sealed too.

Click to shrink...

Since it's been a while, I feel I can now explain this one. That was the fact that maintaining that level of concentration was helping him push through the pain of his injuries and remain closer to his full power level. You couldn't actually feel what ki concentration was doing to his strikes, although at the time Kakara didn't realize that.