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Dragon Ball: After the End

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You know, here is something that I have to ask.

I know that killing is basically Kakara's highest moral priority. As in, she is willing to compromise on most other morals to ensure that one gets upheld. However, there ARE worst things then death and the alternative to killing or letting something die isn't always better then it.

What is our consensus regarding such eventualities? Because if the only way to take care of the dragon without killing had been sealing him inside of us, I would have to have asked:

"If unsealing Jaron meant killing him, would we purposefully keep him trapped inside his own mind for his whole life?"
 
I have been swayed by the trait creation fearmongering.
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
Adhoc vote count started by OneArmedYeti on Mar 2, 2018 at 8:56 PM, finished with 827 posts and 111 votes.
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mithril-blade said:
You know, here is something that I have to ask.

I know that killing is basically Kakara's highest moral priority. As in, she is willing to compromise on most other morals to ensure that one gets upheld. However, there ARE worst things then death and the alternative to killing or letting something die isn't always better then it.

What is our consensus regarding such eventualities? Because if the only way to take care of the dragon without killing had been sealing him inside of us, I would have to have asked:

"If unsealing Jaron meant killing him, would we purposefully keep him trapped inside his own mind for his whole life?"
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Honestly, we have WOG that the quest will never make pacifism impossible. It sometimes stretches SOD a little, but hopefully tough moral decisions will be in terms of "can we risk it" rather than "is killing this dragon the right thing to do, given that the only alternative is letting it go free to kill other planets".
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Honestly, we have WOG that the quest will never make pacifism impossible. It sometimes stretches SOD a little, but hopefully tough moral decisions will be in terms of "can we risk it" rather than "is killing this dragon the right thing to do, given that the only alternative is letting it go free to kill other planets".
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Mind you, I think there's likely going to be a point where we do need to consider the Idea of a Mercy Kill.

It's painful, and should never be needed, but sometimes you can't control events...
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Honestly, we have WOG that the quest will never make pacifism impossible. It sometimes stretches SOD a little, but hopefully tough moral decisions will be in terms of "can we risk it" rather than "is killing this dragon the right thing to do, given that the only alternative is letting it go free to kill other planets".
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That's just the thing: Having the pacifist choice be a worst fate then death ISN'T making pacifism impossible.

It's just making it cruel.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Reforming villains into friends is a longtime tradition in DBZ, but never with a villain you've stuck in a cage and don't interact with. Those always turn out poorly.
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Except we do interact with him.

Look, I am ok with either of the options winning but I am having to constantly post to clear stuff I feel is wrong, mostly in favor of the self seal. I've seen people saying we wouldn't interact with him if one option is chosen over the other (we are likely to vote for it regardless of which one wins), that we would cause sensory deprivation (really? torture?), that we only choose one for powers (disregarding all other reasons given), that we don't actually get any power from choosing it (ignoring that power can also mean other things like control over the inprisonment or first access to information), that it will cause Kakara to grow power hungry (we can't know but seems ooc), that Dazz would be killed if chibified (he would be under protection), that he would become a pet for the misfits (can't because of masquerade), that we could use his psychic powers (we don't know), that we could get a transformation which brings mental issues (we don't know), that we could be blackmailed into releasing him (any reason to do so has simpler ways to be obtained)... among with several others.

Look, I will try to make it simpler:

Chibi probably has a better chance to rehabilitate him since it lets him interact with people independently of Kakara (Poptart confirmed that we can set the seal so that he can talk to others if self seal but that is still dependant of Kakara). It has the problem that we would need another spirit saiyan if we wich to change the seal.

Self seal is a harsher punishment and will probably make it harder to rehabilitate him. However, we can alter how the seal works and eventually release him if rehabilitated.
So:

Chibi: Better for Dazzarel in the short term since he would be more comfortable and have more agency but he is likely stuck as a house dragon. Easier to rehabilitate and less complications for Kakara.

Self: Longer and harder path to rehabilitation but better reward for us if we manage it. Dazzarel is full power upon completion.

Both allow interactions with others but chibi is better if you want that since Self depends on Kakara adjusting the seal for it.
Chibi means that, saving exceptional circumstances, Dazz is stuck as house dragon without powers for a long while. It might hurt his pride.
Self pretty much lock us into trying to rehabilitate him since if we don't it takes Kakara to places we are probably not comfortable with.
 
Well since we're gonna have a lot of mod posts anyways today, how do mods go about checking for socks? Matching IP's? And what are things we should look for so we could alert the mods if we suspect a potential one?

Can we also get the rest of the votes checked for socks in case they haven't already? I've suspected us if having socks before, but I've never felt it could be as disruptive as the socks in this vote may have been.
 
Blonddude42 said:
Well since we're gonna have a lot of mod posts anyways today, how do mods go about checking for socks? Matching IP's? And what are things we should look for so we could alert the mods if we suspect a potential one?

Can we also get the rest of the votes checked for socks in case they haven't already? I've suspected us if having socks before, but I've never felt it could be as disruptive as the socks in this vote may have been.
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I would assume the fact that I reported caused a general check, inasmuch as such aren't getting checked automatically.
 
Blonddude42 said:
Well since we're gonna have a lot of mod posts anyways today, how do mods go about checking for socks? Matching IP's? And what are things we should look for so we could alert the mods if we suspect a potential one?

Can we also get the rest of the votes checked for socks in case they haven't already? I've suspected us if having socks before, but I've never felt it could be as disruptive as the socks in this vote may have been.
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Votes have probably been checked.

And great indicators are accounts that are very new, with a single post.

Edit: My apologies. Earlier I said 17 sock puppets in a different quest. Unless I'm thinking of later in the thread, it's only 12.
torrmercury said:
Also I was content to leave it be after I reported the first few, but the number grew. It's 12 now :mad:
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mithril-blade said:
You know, here is something that I have to ask.
I know that killing is basically Kakara's highest moral priority. As in, she is willing to compromise on most other morals to ensure that one gets upheld. However, there ARE worst things then death and the alternative to killing or letting something die isn't always better then it.

What is our consensus regarding such eventualities? Because if the only way to take care of the dragon without killing had been sealing him inside of us, I would have to have asked:
"If unsealing Jaron meant killing him, would we purposefully keep him trapped inside his own mind for his whole life?"
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That's fairly straightforward: We would ask both of them. Then turn the Sorcerers loose on the problem.
The odd legal situation of Super Saiyans in this verse means that they are old enough to have an opinion. And the heir to House Vegeta would justify a significant devotion of resources.
 
Bakkasama said:
Chibi: Better for Dazzarel in the short term since he would be more comfortable and have more agency but he is likely stuck as a house dragon. Easier to rehabilitate and less complications for Kakara.

Self: Longer and harder path to rehabilitation but better reward for us if we manage it. Dazzarel is full power upon completion.
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Don't both paths have the possibility of a full powered Dazarel on completion?

Chibi requires convincing others beside ourselves that he is properly redeemed, and going Spirit Saiyan again, but that just means it's a harder path to get there and can't be done at a moment's notice like Head-seal. And by others, I mean Berra, who has shown himself to be reasonable outside of his triggers.

So we do lose out on SURPRISE dragon, but not on the potential of him as a future ally if we are successful at redeeming him.
 
Y'know, I can't believe I'm voting for this, considering how for sealing him in Kakara I was before, but I've seen the light of the chibi, and not out of fear.
Consider this, Kakara, knowing she doesn't have time to talk things through with the dragon, hands him off to someone with more time on their hands and an inclination to help.
Do you know how many comedic shenanigans there could be with a cynical and caustic although harmless mini-dragon stuck with an earnest but clumsy watcher who keeps trying to show Dazz the true meaning of happiness?!
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).

Give us adorable interludes with Dazz learning how to be happy or give us death!
 
tehspooniestbard said:
Don't both paths have the possibility of a full powered Dazarel on completion?

Chibi requires convincing others beside ourselves that he is properly redeemed, and going Spirit Saiyan again, but that just means it's a harder path to get there and can't be done at a moment's notice like Head-seal. And by others, I mean Berra, who has shown himself to be reasonable outside of his triggers.

So we do lose out on SURPRISE dragon, but not on the potential of him as a future ally if we are successful at redeeming him.
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We would have to convince everyone. We would need a spirit saiyan level of power behind it so we would need to make a case to most exile society.

I mean, maybe if he somehow managed to save the world as a chibi dragon but that only happens in anime and quests.
.
.
.
...wait a second.

Edit: So yeah, what I meant is that it is not really likely he could gain his full power afterwards barring truly exceptional circumstances.
 
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Bakkasama said:
Except we do interact with him.

Look, I am ok with either of the options winning but I am having to constantly post to clear stuff I feel is wrong, mostly in favor of the self seal. I've seen people saying we wouldn't interact with him if one option is chosen over the other (we are likely to vote for it regardless of which one wins), that we would cause sensory deprivation (really? torture?), that we only choose one for powers (disregarding all other reasons given), that we don't actually get any power from choosing it (ignoring that power can also mean other things like control over the inprisonment or first access to information), that it will cause Kakara to grow power hungry (we can't know but seems ooc), that Dazz would be killed if chibified (he would be under protection), that he would become a pet for the misfits (can't because of masquerade), that we could use his psychic powers (we don't know), that we could get a transformation which brings mental issues (we don't know), that we could be blackmailed into releasing him (any reason to do so has simpler ways to be obtained)... among with several others.

Look, I will try to make it simpler:

Chibi probably has a better chance to rehabilitate him since it lets him interact with people independently of Kakara (Poptart confirmed that we can set the seal so that he can talk to others if self seal but that is still dependant of Kakara). It has the problem that we would need another spirit saiyan if we wich to change the seal.

Self seal is a harsher punishment and will probably make it harder to rehabilitate him. However, we can alter how the seal works and eventually release him if rehabilitated.
So:

Chibi: Better for Dazzarel in the short term since he would be more comfortable and have more agency but he is likely stuck as a house dragon. Easier to rehabilitate and less complications for Kakara.

Self: Longer and harder path to rehabilitation but better reward for us if we manage it. Dazzarel is full power upon completion.

Both allow interactions with others but chibi is better if you want that since Self depends on Kakara adjusting the seal for it.
Chibi means that, saving exceptional circumstances, Dazz is stuck as house dragon without powers for a long while. It might hurt his pride.
Self pretty much lock us into trying to rehabilitate him since if we don't it takes Kakara to places we are probably not comfortable with.
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I'll go even simpler:
  • If we're in a situation where Chibi dies, shit has Hit The Fan in a spectacular fashion.
  • Given that letting Dazarel go free would be a Big Deal politically anyway, and that almost all the Ki being used is from Saiyans, we could probably order people to pony up - if we're sure he's reformed, refusal is both treason and an impediment to global defense. If we're only off by a few billion, I think the sorcerers can power through that if it's based on how much ki is being used relatively instead of absolute power difference.
  • I think Chibi will get significantly more interaction with people, but I suppose I should have said "other than with Kakara when she has the energy to deal with it".
  • I'm pretty sure we'd share any information about the galaxy he had anyway, and us not having to be involved every time someone thinks of a new question is a positive, not a negative.
  • Solitary confinement absolutely is torture, that governments around the world use it on problem inmates doesn't make it less so - people are forever changed by long periods of enforced solitary (note: Jaffur being permanently aware of Jaron's surroundings is a huge blessing.)
  • Kakara turning power hungry is a valid evolution of her character, and that it's OOC right now is irrelevant since it won't be if we make decisions like this on the basis of chasing personal power at other costs.
  • If Kakara is able to learn Dazarel's psychic powers without his actual power input, he should be able to teach from outside as well.

I don't think I actually disagree with the rest of your points, but I'm tired and might have missed something. I'm going to bed.
 
Bakkasama said:
We would have to convince everyone. We would need a spirit saiyan level of power behind it so we would need to make a case to most exile society.
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That's where we disagree I guess. I don't think everyone has to be convinced to have the sorcerers perform the ritual. We need to convince Berra, who would then command all the Gokun sorcerers, who would do what he says as the trusted Lord Goku. And ALL the sorcerers here are Gokun. Dandeer and Dandelor are the only Vegetan ones I'm fairly sure. Or shenanigans have happened, in which case:

1) We're Lady, and can order it ourselves. After our bomb ass Kakara diplomacy speech comparing him to Vegeta and our successful redeeming.

2) There's another Lord/Lady who has partial or full leadership for whatever reason. We need to convince them too. As long as it's not Yammar, I think we stand a fair chance given our achievements and judgement up to this point.

Edit: Though you may have a point. I might be underestimating the difficulty, but I assume Kakara's reputation is going to be through the roof following this incident, and that the diplomacy checks for the general public wouldn't be difficult if we have been able to show his redemption in some way.
 
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The3rdCorinthian said:
I want to see him complaining about headpats he actually enjoys.

Imagine it: Daz claiming that this changes nothing, and He'll Still have his revenge!...And it also itches behind his horns...
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'Hey Dazz-"
Do not call me that.
"Right, Dazz. I got you ice cream!"
Fool, I have tasted ice from the deepest depths of space, none could compare-
Dazz is cut off with an unceremonious *thunk* of an ice cream cone being shoved into his mouth, any particular desire for revenge peters off as his tounge touches it.
It's abrosia, a taste that soothes all his ills and reminds him of those satisfied days basking in the light of stars. Just for a moment, he sees it, what that fool Kakara had spoken of, and he thinks that perhaps it isn't so bad for life to live.
Then, with an irritated huff and blinking away the tiniest of tears, he turns away.
It's— It's alright.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I'll go even simpler:
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Most of the things you adressed afterwards are things I said were wrong though...
Deathbybunnies said:
If we're in a situation where Chibi dies, shit has Hit The Fan in a spectacular fashion.
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For example, I mentioned this because at the begining of the vote lailoken pointed that Yammar or other saiyans might kill Dazz out of anger if chibified and I said that was not really the case since he would be under protection if we chose chibi-
Deathbybunnies said:
Given that letting Dazarel go free would be a Big Deal politically anyway, and that almost all the Ki being used is from Saiyans, we could probably order people to pony up - if we're sure he's reformed, refusal is both treason and an impediment to global defense. If we're only off by a few billion, I think the sorcerers can power through that if it's based on how much ki is being used relatively instead of absolute power difference.
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I don't think you could actually make an argument about it being treason to refuse to give us energy unless there is a threat we must face with it.

Deathbybunnies said:
I think Chibi will get significantly more interaction with people, but I suppose I should have said "other than with Kakara when she has the energy to deal with it".
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Which I said later in the post? Both options let him interact but chibi more since self depends on Kakara and self let's him interact only with people around Kakara instead of giving him agency.
Deathbybunnies said:
I'm pretty sure we'd share any information about the galaxy he had anyway, and us not having to be involved every time someone thinks of a new question is a positive, not a negative.
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That actually depends on how dangerous the information is, but the point was that we would share it with the royals to see how to best rely it to the public.
Deathbybunnies said:
Solitary confinement absolutely is torture, that governments around the world use it on problem inmates doesn't make it less so - people are forever changed by long periods of enforced solitary (note: Jaffur being permanently aware of Jaron's surroundings is a huge blessing.)
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Yes. When I said "Torture? Really?" I meant it as "Do you really expect for Kakara to ever condone torture? Or the players to let her do so? Really?"
Deathbybunnies said:
Kakara turning power hungry is a valid evolution of her character, and that it's OOC right now is irrelevant since it won't be if we make decisions like this on the basis of chasing personal power at other costs.
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But not something that is actually likely to happen in this vote, which is what I was arguing against as false advertising-
Deathbybunnies said:
  • If Kakara is able to learn Dazarel's psychic powers without his actual power input, he should be able to teach from outside as well.
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Yes. I think I said as much before. Why bring it up now? It doesn't really affect which seal is better since he could teach us either way.
 
tehspooniestbard said:
That's where we disagree I guess. I don't think everyone has to be convinced to have the sorcerers perform the ritual. We need to convince Berra, who would then command all the Gokun sorcerers, who would do what he says as the trusted Lord Goku. And ALL the sorcerers here are Gokun. Dandeer and Dandelor are the only Vegetan ones I'm fairly sure. Or shenanigans have happened, in which case:

1) We're Lady, and can order it ourselves. After our bomb ass Kakara diplomacy speech comparing him to Vegeta and our successful redeeming.

2) There's another Lord/Lady who has partial or full leadership for whatever reason. We need to convince them too. As long as it's not Yammar, I think we stand a fair chance given our achievements and judgement up to this point.
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Ah, not what I meant. The ritual we are doing now is supercharged by the genki dama. So for our sorcerers to modify it later on if we choose chibi now, they would need a power source in the same ballpark of the genki dama for them to be able to change it. So we would need to convince the exiles to lend us our energy to undo the chibi seal, which might be harder to swing. That is why I said that if we choose chibi we are unlikely to be able to unseal Dazz if we think he is reformed. It is possible but considering that we would have to convince the majority of the exiles that he is, not very likely.
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
Bakkasama said:
Ah, not what I meant. The ritual we are doing now is supercharged by the genki dama. So for our sorcerers to modify it later on if we choose chibi now, they would need a power source in the same ballpark of the genki dama for them to be able to change it. So we would need to convince the exiles to lend us our energy to undo the chibi seal, which might be harder to swing. That is why I said that if we choose chibi we are unlikely to be able to unseal Dazz if we think he is reformed. It is possible but considering that we would have to convince the majority of the exiles that he is, not very likely.
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I agree it's more difficult, but our estimates of that difficulty are different. Kakara already has a great reputation among the exiles, and after this it is likely rising to religious (possibly literally) levels. As long as we don't royally mess up, I think it is very likely we can convince the exiles that Dazarel is redeemed, especially as they have been raised on stories of Piccolo and Vegeta. After all, Dazarel never actually succeeded in killing anyone as of yet.

It might require Dazarel's cooperation and actions to engender good will though. THAT is where I think the higher difficulty lies. Because even if we do redeem Dazzy, he is still likely going to be a dick. And he will have been going around being a dick and unredeemed for a while before we get to that point.
 
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