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As a lurker who binge reads, can I just say that the jinchuuriki route never works out for anyone? Didn't work for Tapion either.

we still have time. Can Kakara at least ask what he'd like done with the alien prisoners? Bird dude was pretty intent on dying honorably rather than being captured. I mean, it'd be out of character for us to go Valentine Vegita on the dragon and execute them all in front of him, but legitimately, if they're willing to settle peacefully (and the planet doesn't seem like it's too overcrowded) and he can be fed with the occasional battle on the far side of the moon with angry people...

Just devil's devil's advocate.

While the dragon himself should still be sealed one way or another, he has a *fleet* of people in ships that are falling apart; in our position, we could just burn them and kill everyone aboard. He's focused on what we're doing to him, we're focused on what we're doing to him. His followers are refugees, even if they're organized to be an invading army. From the sound of it, the Core Worlds are kind of a MESS and we're out on the very fringe of the galaxy; the hard just get crushed under the harder. We're not really in a perfect position to handle who knows how many refugees, but while he's an egotistical jerk, so was literally every Rival Turned Frenemy other than, like, Yamcha and Krillin.

I'm not even casting an official vote for this (I am not a sockpuppet, and I'm a lurker who just binge read and recaught up after more than a year of absence; i'm not comfortable actually voting) but for all that this vote is a singular thing, Kakara's character was established fairly early as someone with a very strict view of Justice. As a compassionate person. For all that she's currently got an energy field larger than her head in her head, I feel like the little people might be a concern. Kakara is one of the pivotal figures in a race of Three Fold refugees, who had to flee their homeworld multiple times. Yeah, by the third time they grew out of it. But the first time they needed a new homeworld, they literally conquered a world out from under the native people and Xenocided them. The Second Time, their numbers were too low to bother Xenociding and they integrated. The third time, they integrated. This is a last, desperate, attempt by a dictator to find his people and himself a home after having their last one taken by people who BEAT the guy soundly. Expecting the myriad races shown among his people to seamlessly integrate is asking a bit much.

Vegita might be Renegade for Life, but it's Goku's way to forgive. There have been hints, since the beginning, that the invaders aren't invaders by choice; not nice people, certainly, but they're fleeing extinction. For all that Big Dragon Dictator is a Lawful Evil jerk, he's shown more than just small signs of having that spark of compassion and humanity. I expected, at some point, that Kakara would *ask* about his people, the forces up in space, and what he expects to have happen now.
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
Just devil's devil's advocate.
I appreciate your sentiment, and thank you for coming out of the shadows to voice your opinion, however your confused about one thing.

The Dragon and the Invasion Fleet are two separate things, they have nothing to do with one another. The Invasion Fleet leader is named Tamar, and he's human or human looking at any rate. The Dragon attack was completely unrelated to his coming invasion.

I happen to agree with most of your points on the Refugee Fleet, just wanted to clear up the confusion about its relation to the Dragon.
 
I appreciate your sentiment, and thank you for coming out of the shadows to voice your opinion, however your confused about one thing.

The Dragon and the Invasion Fleet are two separate things, they have nothing to do with one another. The Invasion Fleet leader is named Tamar, and he's human or human looking at any rate. The Dragon attack was completely unrelated to his coming invasion.

I happen to agree with most of your points on the Refugee Fleet, just wanted to clear up the confusion about its relation to the Dragon.
they're different things?

what.

how do we know that the dragon isn't just Tamar pulling our legs?
 
....we have to break out the secret turtle school farming technique.

Sowing fields with our bare hands.
 
how do we know that the dragon isn't just Tamar pulling our legs?
Cuz most of Tamar's forces were freaking out about a 1.5 Mil Powerlevel Maya, saying that only Tamar could fight that, and if he had a pocket Dragon that was almost 1 Billion in PL not counting its weird Psi powers then Maya wouldn't even have been worth mentioning.

Also we know exactly when the Dragon woke up thanks to our visions, and Tamar and his people had to be around much longer then that before getting kicked off their home to come here.
 
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Quest culture is full of speaking in terms of collective, done rightly or wrongly.

But since you take offense to me using such common practice, I'll endeavour to not do so here*.

It's not use of it in general- it's very correct to describe the results of votes in such terms, for example, since the collective group did express the opinion/make the decision even though given individuals may have dissented. But using it to describe a distrust of people you are framing as outsiders is, no two ways about it, ascribing a viewpoint of hostility to other voters who you have no way to discern whether any, let alone most, share it.

The collective use makes sense when speaking of eg our plans for a character or the results of our choices, not when speaking of other voters.
 
C'mon, guys! We already swallowed an energy field larger than our head. Let's turn into a snakedragon (holder). Let's complete the EvilAdorable Overlord List!
 
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It's 47*1.25 = 58.75 vs 68, I think that's a definitive lead at this point?

EDIT: I think Head had 49 yesterday. Did they lose more votes?
Adhoc vote count started by Deathbybunnies on Mar 3, 2018 at 7:55 AM, finished with 24834 posts and 114 votes.
 
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Nothing brings out the lurkers like a contentious binary vote.

Anyway, been rereading the latest few updates and after seeing Yammar in action it occured to me to wonder whether we actually know ki healing or not. AFAICT we don't?
If so I'd rather prioritise that over Tinkering.
 
Make it 48 for Gore. While he is suspended, I do feel his vote should be counted, since he was really damn civil on this thread.
Um, I wasn't going to say anything, but I realised in like the last 60 seconds that his vote isn't being counted now but I'm pretty sure it was yesterday...

Nothing brings out the lurkers like a contentious binary vote.

Anyway, been rereading the latest few updates and after seeing Yammar in action it occured to me to wonder whether we actually know ki healing or not. AFAICT we don't?
If so I'd rather prioritise that over Tinkering.
We know really basic healing, for minor scrapes.
 
Our model of ki usage is truly inspired and highbrow - it's a "tank" full of ki representing our reserves, and a "hose" through which ki exits the tank and is used, whose nozzle diameter is our Power Level. Current known modifiers are:
  • Tabe's trick "Overdrive" is to pull ki out through the hose quicker - you get more ki per unit time, but your tank drains faster.
  • Jaffur's trick "Ki Refinement" is to pinch the end of the hose, such that the ki comes out at a higher pressure and speed by reducing the space the ki can escape from, which doesn't affect the tank but can make your thumb tired after a while.
  • Increasing the size of the tank and the hose, nozzle included - this would be just straight-up increasing our Power Level through Transformation, with swapping out nozzles being different forms once unlocked.

Using this analogy, what other methods of getting more ki or using it better are there?
  • Increasing the density of the ki in the tank, increasing the amount in there without actually increasing the volume - this would naturally have the ki be under more pressure, and travel through the hose more quickly, or have the same amount of more-concentrated ki come out. (Cultiviating our ki to be more "dense" when we aren't using it?)
  • Slapping a second tank on there - we have the Oozaru PL just sitting around doing nothing. Linking the two, or taking them apart to build a single bigger tank with, would be ideal. (SSJ4, or whatever Poptart has to occupy its space in this AU.)
  • Decreasing the length of the hose, so ki gets from the tank to outside faster. (Improving our reaction time - this may be stretching the metaphor too far.)
  • Have the ki do something while it's sitting in the tank! Have it cycle around strengthening the tank's walls when it's not being used or something.
  • Add something to the ki in the tank to make it more effective than pure ki is. (Life energy is added when using it in some attacks, can we pre-charge our reserves with the stuff? Or is that what the Kaio-Ken is?)
  • Add a second hose! This is probably what Multiform does, actually - the extra hose allows a second set of ki to be used, but the lower pressure means less comes out from each. (Maybe Perfect Multiform is accomplished by splitting the exit point of a single hose instead, making it branch off after exiting the tank while in the hose?)
  • Heat the tank up, the hotter a gas is (ki is a gas for this particular metaphor) the more pressure it exerts, so it will exit the hose faster. (Maybe this is what the Kaio-Ken is, with higher temperatures being higher multipliers? Could we heat-proof our tank?)
  • Have your hose lead to a much bigger tank along with everyone else's hoses, take all that ki, and shove it back into your tank the other way. (Genki Dama Spirit Saiyan, whoo!)
  • Make the tank's walls flexible, so that sticking more ki in there increases the size as it stretches. (Increasing reserves and speed of ki release temporarily as we store more ki, going back to its un-stretched size when that extra ki is used. Synergy with other density/energy increases?)
  • Set your hose to suck instead of blow, and stick it in someone else's tank?
Some of these are going to be wildly off-base, but maybe some won't be. Anyone have any other ideas? And @PoptartProdigy, did I guess how some of these relate to existing techniques correctly?
 
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On the sock puppet thing, I think it's positive that from what I see it seem the work of one, maybe two players since the discrepancies seem to be only on the headdragon vote(I think, it seems that way to me:???::eyebrow:) It could have been much worse if we had a war of sock puppets on our heads. Plus as others wrote it was caught quickly an cleanly.
 
Inserted tally
It's 47*1.25 = 58.75 vs 68, I think that's a definitive lead at this point?
Yeah, it is.

A pity, though. Headdragon would be nice experiment, especially with everything it was confirmed in discussion. It would be:
- Safe: no chance of influencing Kakara via psychic tricks.
- Secure: no chance of it being disrupted. Neither by internal or external manipulation.
- Comfortable: as Kakara could always mute him, so no unwanted commentary or disruption of daily life.

And it's not a harsh punishment or torment.


<sigh> All power boost aside - I wanted to see discussions between Kakara and Dazarel. And dragon-view commentary on things in Kakara's life!
 
Anyway, been rereading the latest few updates and after seeing Yammar in action it occured to me to wonder whether we actually know ki healing or not. AFAICT we don't?
We know really basic healing, for minor scrapes.
And Genkai Dama, so we can SUPERCHARGE the scrape healing. Papercuts will NEVER dare bother our friends again.
Basically, we have a minor bonus to medicine checks and we can heal minor bruises by pouring ki but we don't really know ki healing as a technique.

We have only seen three people who we know know ki healing in the quest. One is Yammar, who knows enough for battlefield treatment, the second is Carrick Van, who healed us after Jaffur caved our face in in the prologue and the third is Peapa Dram, healer and trained Oozaru, our first instructor for that form.

Dandeer knows healing too, but hers is sorcery based.
 
Increasing the density of the ki in the tank, increasing the amount in there without actually increasing the volume - this would naturally have the ki be under more pressure, and travel through the hose more quickly, or have the same amount of more-concentrated ki come out. (Cultiviating our ki to be more "dense" when we aren't using it?
I may be wrong but this method seem very similar to god ki to me, with the difference that you didn't add the "compress it all inside so it doesn't disperd when we use it" bit. Seem like a good first step toward super sayan blue without risking having every godly entity aware of us the minute we reach it. It wouldn't help us much on the power level since as pointed out that's the hose but it could be useful having bigger reservers for the tournament kid trick.
 
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To be fair, usually power level training and stamina training go hand in hand, so that characters have roughly comparable endurance at peak power level. There are rare exceptions for people who have trained endurance to ridiculous heights (possible Elite Ki Control trait), and for people who have specific stamina-draining techniques like Tabe's Overdrive or some kind of "channel all my energy into a single punch" ability.

Speaking as one of the lurkers who has crawled out of said woodwork (and would now like very much to return to it, as it is comfortable and blessedly devoid of salt), I will thank you not to cast aspersions upon the legitimacy of my vote simply because I have chosen not to involve myself in the rest of this thread. I will further thank you not to do the same to my fellow lurkers. You claim that "we will now always have that lingering doubt;" I counter that you need not have such doubt, and should in fact be more confident in the legitimacy of this voting process than ever, as most votes do not have the mods bothering to check for sock-puppets in the first place. Additionally, I find it to create a distinctly inhospitable thread environment if new voters are greeted with immediate suspicion of their motives and, indeed, personhood. As such: kindly stop.
Suffice to say that I am pro-you, not pro-"I think you are a darned garment for the lower pedal extremities."

As a lurker who binge reads, can I just say that the jinchuuriki route never works out for anyone? Didn't work for Tapion either.

we still have time. Can Kakara at least ask what he'd like done with the alien prisoners? Bird dude was pretty intent on dying honorably rather than being captured. I mean, it'd be out of character for us to go Valentine Vegita on the dragon and execute them all in front of him, but legitimately, if they're willing to settle peacefully (and the planet doesn't seem like it's too overcrowded) and he can be fed with the occasional battle on the far side of the moon with angry people...

Just devil's devil's advocate.

While the dragon himself should still be sealed one way or another, he has a *fleet* of people in ships that are falling apart; in our position, we could just burn them and kill everyone aboard. He's focused on what we're doing to him, we're focused on what we're doing to him. His followers are refugees, even if they're organized to be an invading army. From the sound of it, the Core Worlds are kind of a MESS and we're out on the very fringe of the galaxy; the hard just get crushed under the harder. We're not really in a perfect position to handle who knows how many refugees, but while he's an egotistical jerk, so was literally every Rival Turned Frenemy other than, like, Yamcha and Krillin.
Point of nitpick: Yamcha was one of Goku's first semi-recurring antagonists, it's just that his hostility was motivated by petty-banditry stuff so it was entirely forgotten later.

I'm not even casting an official vote for this (I am not a sockpuppet, and I'm a lurker who just binge read and recaught up after more than a year of absence; i'm not comfortable actually voting) but for all that this vote is a singular thing, Kakara's character was established fairly early as someone with a very strict view of Justice. As a compassionate person. For all that she's currently got an energy field larger than her head in her head, I feel like the little people might be a concern. Kakara is one of the pivotal figures in a race of Three Fold refugees, who had to flee their homeworld multiple times. Yeah, by the third time they grew out of it. But the first time they needed a new homeworld, they literally conquered a world out from under the native people and Xenocided them. The Second Time, their numbers were too low to bother Xenociding and they integrated. The third time, they integrated. This is a last, desperate, attempt by a dictator to find his people and himself a home after having their last one taken by people who BEAT the guy soundly. Expecting the myriad races shown among his people to seamlessly integrate is asking a bit much.

Vegita might be Renegade for Life, but it's Goku's way to forgive. There have been hints, since the beginning, that the invaders aren't invaders by choice; not nice people, certainly, but they're fleeing extinction. For all that Big Dragon Dictator is a Lawful Evil jerk, he's shown more than just small signs of having that spark of compassion and humanity. I expected, at some point, that Kakara would *ask* about his people, the forces up in space, and what he expects to have happen now.
You appear to be under the misapprehension that the dragon is in fact affiliated with the army?

To recap what was said earlier, the dragon came here to go all Galactus on our planet, whereas the alien army wants to settle here. There is no evidence the dragon even knows about the army (except by reading our minds), or that the army knows about the dragon. It is pretty much a certainty that if the army had known the dragon was coming to us, they would have turned around and gone the other way. One way or the other, the dragon will be Dealt With before the army arrives.

The army is basically a bunch of feeble scrubs compared to us; we can take them, almost certainly without the Spirit Bomb and very probably without needing to go super-saiyan or even break out of our Masque. They're so weak, it's entirely possible that Sophie, Gemma, and Jenny will be a match for their rank-and-file soldiers, at least in power (to be fair, those girls are now at Ginyu Force power levels). Maya and Jaron will be by far stronger than all but their greatest champions and their commander Tamar, and Maya and Jaron are merely slightly above average by the standards of a bunch of Exile saiyans.

The big problem with the army is making sure that none of them leave Garenhuld or at least its star system, because we'd like the option of keeping our presence here a secret. If we were Yammar, we'd solve this problem by killing them all. As it is, we'll have to solve it by settling them somewhere in our star system and confiscating all their spaceships.

As a less-good option, if we take for granted that some of the aliens will run away, it requires either that we totally super respect the Masquerade while fighting them, so that they are like "oh wow, that one planet full of strong humans who beat us up."

Anyway, on the whole this is a topic we've discussed quite a bit, and I think you'll be pretty happy with our consensus now that you know the dragon is (so far as we know) unrelated (and terrifying) to the army.

Nothing brings out the lurkers like a contentious binary vote.

Anyway, been rereading the latest few updates and after seeing Yammar in action it occured to me to wonder whether we actually know ki healing or not. AFAICT we don't?
If so I'd rather prioritise that over Tinkering.
We don't, Poptart was surprised by this development early in the quest, we actually have a trait that would make us good at it (Compassionate). I agree with you, we should learn Ki Healing. I'd say that should be the next noncombat skill we pick up after Mind Delve; we definitely want to learn Mind Delve.

I may be wrong but this method seem very similar to god ki to me, with the difference that you didn't add the "compress it all inside so it doesn't disperd when we use it" bit. Seem like a good first step toward super sayan blue without risking having every godly entity aware of us the minute we reach it. It wouldn't help us much on the power level since as pointed out that's the hose but it could be useful having bigger reservers for the tournament kid trick.
I really don't think we're going to tap into divine ki without the gods knowing.

What we MIGHT be able to do is achieve something... Hm. To borrow a term from the nuclear war theorists, we MIGHT be able to achieve "breakout" Super-Saiyan Blue capability, where we get very close to it such that just a little divine tutelage or the right stimulus would let us hit that level very quickly.

Maaaybe.

Jaffur's "ki compression" technique sounds like a step on that road, as done perfecting our (already excellent) ki control, at which we are a natural.
 
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To be fair, usually power level training and stamina training go hand in hand, so that characters have roughly comparable endurance at peak power level. There are rare exceptions for people who have trained endurance to ridiculous heights (possible Elite Ki Control trait), and for people who have specific stamina-draining techniques like Tabe's Overdrive or some kind of "channel all my energy into a single punch" ability.
This isn't true for Saiyans - SSJ2 has less stamina, and SSJ3 has much less stamina. Unless you're positing that they both have Full-Power variants too?

Regardless, what I'm really hoping for is something Kakara can do without really thinking about it, while doing other things - a way to fiddle with her Ki like a stress ball, whilst accomplishing some practical gain. Any kind of passive "cycling" of our ki would fit, for example.
 
Some of these are going to be wildly off-base, but maybe some won't be. Anyone have any other ideas?
I don't have any other ideas of how to manipulate the hose, but..

Any idea how USSJ fits in the hose metaphor? In the hose model, water flowing faster increases the force it hits with, but what explanation does it have for something that increases your power but decreases your speed?

And what about Roshi's buff form, for that matter? Does that have any relation to either Tabe's or Jaffur's trick, some kind of version of USSJ or both?
 
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