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Dragon Ball: After the End

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PoptartProdigy said:
"Historically, this armor was an affectation by Prince Vegeta as a means of holding onto both his Saiyan heritage and his royal blood. Since the Exile, the Lords Vegeta have used this armor to reinforce their claim to the royal throne by drawing a direct parallel to Prince Vegeta. While other Saiyans wear this armor if they intend to fight somebody, to wear it outside of combat sends a very definite message of heritage, tradition, and legacy. In my case, wearing the armor in a situation where no combat will take place says this: 'The Lords of Vegeta may traditionally lay their claim to the throne, but my blood and my station are as noble as theirs. By wearing this armor outside of the battlefield, I am declaring my intent to lay my claim as Princess of the Saiyans, and dare any who disagree to force me to retract it.' Doing so lends a distinctly royal weight to my decisions and words, one which strikes with particular force amongst Vegetans and decided controversy amongst Gokun. Among Ancestor Cultists, I am already a demigod; wearing this armor will only add to that. Finally, the armor will lend a distinctly martial tint to anything I say.

"In short, to wear this armor outside the battlefield is to declare myself royalty, lending my words all the weight and impact that that implies. It also tinges my words with a silent promise of violence."
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[><] Enter, then transform.
[><] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. And you're wearing it today.
[><] Yes.

New sheriff in town!
Her Word is the law!
This beautiful world!
Let's set it on fire!

If Kakara were not a nine year old girl I would be seriously considering to lay claim to both clans. Let the fanatics do the work, that is what they are there for.

As is though...
[x] Just enter.
[x] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
 
[x] Just enter.
[x] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
 
I personally put SSJ4 as equal or slightly weaker than the red Super Saiyan God actually, at best SSJ4 Gogeta is a 13 to Beerus's 10 and Whis's 15.
 
I have my own theory regarding Super Saiyan, the Great Ape form, and Super Saiyan 4.

First, a primer on the Super Saiyan transformations in general. Super Saiyan massively boosts a Saiyan's power but it doesn't do this for free. It drives them into a rage, to the point where even someone like Goku whose heart was pure good was made impure with rage (not evil, though). This is even more true for Super Saiyan 2, turning someone even gentler and more pacifistic than Goku into a straight up sadist. Presumably, this psychological effect is driven even further at Super Saiyan 3 and requires great strength of will to control it. In Dragon Ball Z and Battle of Gods, we notice that when Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 that he's more violent and has a shorter temper than he usually does, so even he - who was so prodigious as to discover the secret to FPSS - after so many years training it couldn't control it.

The Super Saiyan transformation doesn't just affect the mind, however. It may increase the raw physical power of the body, but it also taxes it significantly not unlike kaio-ken. From Vegeta we know that only the Great Ape form could buff the original Super Saiyan's body enough to use it and that even then it eventually overtook him and consumed him in its power. Goku and co got around this requirement by simply training their bodies hard enough that they didn't need the Great Ape forms to handle the power of a Super Saiyan, but the energy and strain that was being put on them regardless was non-negligible. Goku went from being the inferior of 17 and 18 to fighting Cell on something approaching even terms just from the energy that Full Power Super Saiyan freed up. (It should be noted that Full Power Super Saiyan merely drops the energy requirements to a negligible amount, it doesn't remove the requirements entirely.) Super Saiyan 2 and especially Super Saiyan 3 were even more taxing on their bodies and so far as we know mastering Super Saiyan 2 the same way Super Saiyan 1 was is impossible.

Now to explain how it all ties together. Let's consider what a Super Saiyan 4 would be, only taking in that it was a x10 boost to Super Saiyan 3 and disregarding everything else about it and GT for a moment. A x10 boost is enormous - larger than the two previous ascended forms of Super Saiyan, quintuple what SS2 did to SS1 and more than double what SS3 did to SS2. We've seen that the physical and mental strain increases after every level of transformation with SS2 being unable to be fully mastered and SS3 where the negative effects are serious and impossible to remove any further. Now imagine what would happen in the next, most powerful, and most relatively (and absolutely) significant ascension of the Super Saiyan form. The strain on the body would be far, far too much no matter how powerful the user was and their mind would be so far gone they couldn't even hope to control it. Super Saiyan 4 would be an instant death state, thus while it could exist in theory, it was a form that could not possibly physically exist.

This is where the Great Ape form comes in. When a Saiyan turns into a Great Ape, they don't just become enraged like in Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, they go completely berserk - completely non-sentient and not even conscious of their own actions. Training in that form and mastering its absolute rage to once more regain sense is a daunting task and one that only the Super-Elites of the old Saiyan society could do. Even Bardock with his power as high as King Vegeta's had only ever managed a vague awareness in the form. How does this relate to Super Saiyan 4? Well, if someone had the strength of will and the training to master the unparalleled rage of the Great Ape form, that meant they would've had the exact same training to control the rage of Super Saiyan 4. Had Goku not gained control of the Great Ape form, Super Saiyan 4 would've remained a physical impossibility. Also, just as the Great Ape form helped contain the power of Super Saiyan 1, it would help containing the power of Super Saiyan 4.

Great Ape is the bridge between Super Saiyan 3 and the theoretical form of Super Saiyan 4, the hybridisation of Great Ape and Super Saiyan 4 leading to the appearance of Super Saiyan 4 as we see it in Dragon Ball GT. Super Saiyan 4 as we know it is a continuation of the Super Saiyan transformations, it's just not a "pure" one.
 
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Aranfan said:
How powerful SSJ4 is compared to the shenanigans in Super is a huge debate on it's own. I am not qualified to make the comparison myself (yet), but I dearly hope Poptart does in fact, make it competitive with Super Saiyan Blue.
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While SS4 is probably in the same ballpark on it's own it runs on drastically different mechanics. Here is my take on the transformations.

Power levels are bullshit for a couple of reason but mostly because of how they seem to fluctuate. Most of the time fans look at them as some kind of absolute like an mana bar in a videogame which can be spent, a set maximum amount that is constant when they are anything but. It makes a lot more sense to view them as an indication of CURRENT output which can be boosted (Powering up or boosting your ki level) at the cost of stamina. RPMs (ki) vs the amount of fuel (stamina) used. A warrior can only do so much with their stamina to raise their ki output in a fight without using a special technique/ability or a transformation.

A transformation like the super saiyan or Frieza's gold form (and doesn't that have interesting implications) shifts the body's ki network to generate and use a higher or more refined form of ki. Some have compared it to an engine using a higher grade of fuel so it's like transforming gasoline (non super ki) into a more energetic form like jet fuel.

SS2 is pretty much the same just on the next level.

At SS3 things get a little more complex because the super ki is being generated/refined even more but the body (engine) has trouble using it because it has a much greater amount of stress being put on it both to create super ki and to use that much power all at once. It is also burning through those reserves (the body's stamina which is spent to generate ki) at a much faster pace and that's why it's the most unstable of the Gold transformations and has a far shorter time limit.

SSG and SSB are more like normal SS transformations in that they use/refine/generate a higher grade of ki, same amount of fuel/stamina but you just get a lot more out of it. If the other transformations are like switching out gas for the same volume of jet fuel this is like switching it out for plutonium.

SS4 is a whole other beast. Ki can be used to increase a fighter's stats but the body itself doesn't change much since it has it's own base stats which can be increased through training to an extent before hitting a hard cap and needing ki to go further. SS4 get's around that by changing the body's base stats and thereby its ability to generate and capacity to use ki.

With SS4 the transformation itself increases the amount of stress you can put the body through while massively increasing everything else like stamina and ki capacity. Sure the other transformations make changes to the body but I think that's either only a cosmetic change that's a side effect of using super ki or that the physical changes are far less drastic than whatever SS4 does. SS4 changes the user's body's base state itself. Kind of like switching out your sedan for a high end racecar but in this case switching out your car for something with a hell of a lot more oomph like a tank. The Oozaru form is like switching out a car for a semi-truck.

While not a transformation the Kaio-ken acts more like your overclocking the body for greater ki output and, kind of like overclocking a computer processor, it puts a massive strain on the body and runs the risk of damaging it at higher multiples.

And that's my take, feel free to poke holes in this or add to it as you like.

Edit: And ninjad by Andres110 with his own take on the transformations
 
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Andres110 said:
No interesting implications. Frieza consciously chose the colour gold for his new final form as a kind of parody of Super Saiyan.
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Wait really? Was that in the movie or the series? I thought he reached that super transformation in the same way saiyans do. He didn't simply go to his final form and power up, his ki changed just like a super saiyan's does.

The implication I was reffering to was that a super type transformation isn't limited to the saiyans. That any race could reach it even if the requirements might be different. Their ki network changes and gives them similar boosts.
 
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Drasizard said:
Wait really? Was that in the movie or the series? I thought he reached that super transformation in the same way saiyans do. He didn't simply go to his final form and power up, his ki changed just like a super saiyan's does.
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I haven't watched Super yet because it hasn't been dubbed. It was either in the movie itself as a throwaway line (something like "I made it gold" or something) or it was in an interview I read that related to the movie.
 
Oh this quest is incredible. I really wish I had taken a look sooner.

[X] Transform, then enter.

[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.

[X] Yes.
 
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[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
 
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[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
 
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.

Switching to this because having the armor will be useful when we move against the seal, and because just entering is better than entering transformed or entering and then transforming.
 
Aranfan said:
@PoptartProdigy

Are you familiar with Dragonball Dissection? It's an indepth review of the Dragon Ball manga, arc by arc.

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Until now, I was not. Thanks!

Nix's Warden said:
Oh this quest is incredible. I really wish I had taken a look sooner.
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...I get such a warm fuzzy feeling whenever somebody says that. Thank you so much, and welcome aboard!

On that note, I do believe it to be time for a vote tally!

Aranfan said:
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.

Switching to this because having the armor will be useful when we move against the seal, and because just entering is better than entering transformed or entering and then transforming.
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I was right in the middle of tallying! :mad:...;)

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. And you're wearing it today.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 4
Nathaniel Wolff, Fastrike, SMuha, The king Chad

[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 9
Zuduke, Terrabrand, Kairos123, Dr. Dinosaur, Quest, Bakkasama, pianoman, Yorick's Skull, Aranfan

[X] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
-[X] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything.
No. of votes: 1
adaer

[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
No. of votes: 1
beowolf

[x] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[x] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[x] Yes.
No. of votes: 1
Ct613hulu

[x] Just enter.
[x] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[x] Yes.
No. of votes: 2
veekie, Icefyre

[X] Transform, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 2
Nix's Warden, Andres110

We're not voting by plan on this one, though, so what that mess above comes to is in fact this:

Armor?

[ ] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. And you're wearing it today. 4 votes
[ ] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home. 13 votes
[ ] No, you don't foresee needing it. 3 votes

Entrance?

[ ] Just enter. 15 votes
[ ] Suppress your ki, then enter. 2 votes
[ ] Transform, then enter. 2 votes

Invite Jaron to training?

[ ] Yes. Unanimous at 20
-[ ] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything. Only 1 vote, but if nobody specifically votes in contradiction I'll just throw it in

Voting will remain open probably until tomorrow, given that we already have 21 people voting on this and the mini-events will drag like nobody's business if they all stay open for days on end. Brace yourselves for a return to the update rates of yore, when Jaffur wasn't Sealed and Kakara was nigh-universally looked down upon and reviled by her people! That...changed really quickly, didn't it?
 
Throwing my hat into the arena, I think Alectai's approach to it is the best one presented so far. We're using BoD mechanics for power levels, so the side-grade feels appropriate... I do feel however that it should be able to access higher SS forms as well. Maybe you have to go back to Oozuru and master higher Golden Forms to do it.

Another idea... Its another separate base form. But one that is directly linked to their regular saiyajin forms, like a x2 or x5 or something multiplier with its own SS equivalents to unlock.
 
@PoptartProdigy, I changed my vote. My vote to transform then enter was an accident.

I'm also against this:
-[ ] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything. Only 1 vote, but if nobody specifically votes in contradiction I'll just throw it in

We dragged our friends into it, it only makes sense that we'll drag him into it as well whether he likes it or not. :p
 
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Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, I changed my vote. My vote to transform then enter was an accident.

I'm also against this:
-[ ] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything. Only 1 vote, but if nobody specifically votes in contradiction I'll just throw it in

We dragged our friends into it, it only makes sense that we'll drag him into it as well whether he likes it or not. :p
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Gotcha. You're winning by a wide margin, anyway.

As for the contested bit...with dissent in the mix, you all may consider adaer's write-in to be on the plurality-wins system with all the rest.
 
As you can tell, this was originally written in the context of how seriously to take Roshi blowing up the moon, when freeza is the first person in the Manga unambiguously able to blow up a planet (Vegeta's claim to being about to destroy the world can be debated).
--

Power levels are indeed bullshit. What a lot of people don't realize however, is how quickly they were established to be bullshit: The Raditz fight.

Raditz, and later everyone else from the wider galaxy, are utterly shocked at the ability of earthling martial artists to hide their PL, and how it fluctuates depending on stuff like weighted clothing and readiness for battle. On Namek, Ginyu rated a non-KaioKen using Goku as topping off at ~85,000. Yet despite being one of the only fighters in the wider galaxy able to hide his power level, he could only get Goku's body to a PL of 23,000. This shows that earthling ki manipulation technology/techinque is far in advance of even the best fighters in the wider galaxy.

Okay you say, in that case PL is still a useful metric if used in the limit. You just need to compare fighter's max power level to regain most of the usefulness of the metric, even if it's less broad.

Nope.

Raditz, and later Ginyu, where absolutely floored to learn that earthlings could raise their effective PL even higher by charging ki attacks. Goku went from 400s to 900s when he Kamehameha'd Raditz, and Piccolo went from 400s to 1000+ with the special beam canon. This was something Raditz was completely blindsided by, and Ginyu (one of the most elite and on the ball fighters in the wider galaxy) was similarly unable to predict as a thing that could happen. This destroys the "Max powerlevel when fighting seriously" heuristic, because Piccolo reached higher with SBC than Goku with K even though Goku had the higher "Max Powerlevel".


So how did Roshi blow up the moon, killing the Carrotizer Rabbit, with a measly PL of <139? Firstly, because 139 was not his serious fighting PL. Secondly, because he had powered up to Muscle Roshi. Thirdly, because he had charged his Kamehameha to the Max. Finally, because Earthling martial arts has long since passed the point where PL is a useful metric without a lot more datapoints than the PTO is used to needing to get.

Or to sum up in the immortal words of Abridged Vegeta: Powerlevels are Bullshit!
 
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
 
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