- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I added a third vote that I forgot to have in the first version of the update. It's at the end.
Dragon Ball: After the End
I added a third vote that I forgot to have in the first version of the update. It's at the end.
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
[X] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
- [X] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
- [X] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Bolded word is probably because.
Bolded word is almost certainly from.
Neat.
Super neat.
I am amused at Kakara's 'likes winning'. It is a continuously amusing trait to me, in a context where most competitions are going to tend to be fighty and she is not.
Cool. And arguably annoying. Oh well, we can commiserate with Jiichan.
[X] Just enter.
Considering, I neither want to play up our divinity nor spurn them by rejecting their core conceits by trying to hide from our new status.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
CONSTANT VIGILANCE.
[X] Yes.
All my yes, on this one.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
Did Golden Oozaru raise the power cap on Base Oozaru at all? Or is it still the same 750 Million as before?
Did Golden Oozaru raise the power cap on Base Oozaru at all? Or is it still the same 750 Million as before?
Kairos123
Insomniac Extraordinaire
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
This is pretty much exactly what I want to happen. Have the armor just in case, but not here. Enter without flaunting our power or hiding it.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
This is pretty much exactly what I want to happen. Have the armor just in case, but not here. Enter without flaunting our power or hiding it.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Not for this one. It's just a matter of realizing that the two aren't incompatible.
- Location
- Three feet to the left
- Pronouns
- He/They
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
So basically, our normal body and oozaru body have different sources of strength, and we can access both separately while in Multiform if I recall correctly. This puts two ideas in my head.
1. Super Saiyin Kakara riding Golden Oozaru Kakara into battle.
2. So fusion dance between two splits equals normal Kakara. What about Great Ape Kakara and Normal Kakara? What would a fusion dance* between them give us? Would it fuse our two power sources together**?
*This is actually possible if very difficult. According to Toriyama, anything can fuse with the fusion dance. It's just that since the dance needs to be synchronised, people with different body types find it much more difficult to manage.
**This is what I'm now imagining SS4 is. A fusion or form that draws both Great Ape and Saiyin body power simultaneously.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
So basically, our normal body and oozaru body have different sources of strength, and we can access both separately while in Multiform if I recall correctly. This puts two ideas in my head.
1. Super Saiyin Kakara riding Golden Oozaru Kakara into battle.
2. So fusion dance between two splits equals normal Kakara. What about Great Ape Kakara and Normal Kakara? What would a fusion dance* between them give us? Would it fuse our two power sources together**?
*This is actually possible if very difficult. According to Toriyama, anything can fuse with the fusion dance. It's just that since the dance needs to be synchronised, people with different body types find it much more difficult to manage.
**This is what I'm now imagining SS4 is. A fusion or form that draws both Great Ape and Saiyin body power simultaneously.
Kairos123
Insomniac Extraordinaire
So, next turn we should look into talking to Mato. Really want to head this off before it turns ugly. Getting Kala to train us up in the basics of Goku style would be nice (she can teach better being an Elite+ teacher), before learning more from Berra the year after seems like our best bet if we want to master goku style and use it as a base to learn other styles. Looking into Golden Oozaru very carefully, and that ki barrier would be nice as well.
Not really a list or anything, but a reminder of things we could do next turn.
Not really a list or anything, but a reminder of things we could do next turn.
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Bear in mind that while Oozaru power and your base power are separate sources, SSJ is still the same source. In the scenario you put forward for 1., that would involve each Kakara having access to only half the SSJ boost.
For 2., that is something you'll have to try to find out about.
Mastering a style takes far more than two years, but that order is a sound approach.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Damn. Looks like my "master all the base styles" is going to be a massive cookie dump.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
If we had rolled a little better on our Oozaru Training and had had more power, how much more complicated would things have gotten when the wards burst and Apra and Yammar showed up to fight the SSJ2?
If we had rolled a little better on our Oozaru Training and had had more power, how much more complicated would things have gotten when the wards burst and Apra and Yammar showed up to fight the SSJ2?
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Hmm. (THEORYCRAFTING AHEAD)
Personally, if I was bringing SS4 into a GT-noncompliant setting. I'd have it as being a sidegrade. It folds the physical strength of the Great Ape form into the figure of a Saiyan in their prime before applying your Ki to it.
So your power level wouldn't actually rise, but you would hit harder, and be capable of using more punishing techniques without hurting yourself.
Taking Power Level as a multiplier for instance, a... Let's call it a Primal Saiyan form.
Let's say in your base state, your power is "Ten". Representing what you could do just with your physical mass and strength alone. You then draw in One Million units of power. Since power levels are bullshit and make no sense, let's say that this ten is then multiplied by 100, and your overall striking power becomes 1,000.
Primal Saiyan form then would be setting your base physical strength at "One Hundred" (Applying the Great Ape boost to your basic state), and then you apply your One Million units of power to this. 100 multiplied by 100 is 10,000 points of striking power.
Ultimately, the most efficient means of getting stronger is--and remains--raising your power level. Primal Saiyan is useful though because it sets you to your ideal physical condition (Even though he was cursed in GT to be a kid again, whenever he transformed to SS4, Goku returned to his prime), and then allows for you to use incredibly punishing physical and energy techniques without hurting yourself.
So yeah, I'd call Primal Saiyan form (Again, it's not actually part of the regular SS form progression in this case) to be a sidegrade to Super Saiyan rather than something stronger than Super Saiyan 3. The upside is that a sucker punch like what happened in Revival of "F" isn't going to happen to someone in a Primal Saiyan form, because even an attack they didn't perceive coming is still going to bounce of of them due to being a scrub. The downside is that it's the kind of form that you'd never discover under perfectly free conditions because it's fucking hard to master (Requiring you to not only be a master of the Great Ape form mind you, but also to achieve the Golden Ape form, and then compress that back down into a human shape.) and when you get right down to it, Super Saiyan 2 or 3 still makes you stronger, and are vastly easier to learn and master anyway. (And you can't step up from Primal to 2 or 3 either, it's too complicated a technique and requires too much mental and spiritual balance for the next rush of power you'd get).
Personally, if I was bringing SS4 into a GT-noncompliant setting. I'd have it as being a sidegrade. It folds the physical strength of the Great Ape form into the figure of a Saiyan in their prime before applying your Ki to it.
So your power level wouldn't actually rise, but you would hit harder, and be capable of using more punishing techniques without hurting yourself.
Taking Power Level as a multiplier for instance, a... Let's call it a Primal Saiyan form.
Let's say in your base state, your power is "Ten". Representing what you could do just with your physical mass and strength alone. You then draw in One Million units of power. Since power levels are bullshit and make no sense, let's say that this ten is then multiplied by 100, and your overall striking power becomes 1,000.
Primal Saiyan form then would be setting your base physical strength at "One Hundred" (Applying the Great Ape boost to your basic state), and then you apply your One Million units of power to this. 100 multiplied by 100 is 10,000 points of striking power.
Ultimately, the most efficient means of getting stronger is--and remains--raising your power level. Primal Saiyan is useful though because it sets you to your ideal physical condition (Even though he was cursed in GT to be a kid again, whenever he transformed to SS4, Goku returned to his prime), and then allows for you to use incredibly punishing physical and energy techniques without hurting yourself.
So yeah, I'd call Primal Saiyan form (Again, it's not actually part of the regular SS form progression in this case) to be a sidegrade to Super Saiyan rather than something stronger than Super Saiyan 3. The upside is that a sucker punch like what happened in Revival of "F" isn't going to happen to someone in a Primal Saiyan form, because even an attack they didn't perceive coming is still going to bounce of of them due to being a scrub. The downside is that it's the kind of form that you'd never discover under perfectly free conditions because it's fucking hard to master (Requiring you to not only be a master of the Great Ape form mind you, but also to achieve the Golden Ape form, and then compress that back down into a human shape.) and when you get right down to it, Super Saiyan 2 or 3 still makes you stronger, and are vastly easier to learn and master anyway. (And you can't step up from Primal to 2 or 3 either, it's too complicated a technique and requires too much mental and spiritual balance for the next rush of power you'd get).
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Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
So another question: We know that by growing muscles, we can up power level and strength while lowering speed. Is the opposite possible? Basically, lowering our muscle mass and optimising for speed instead of power to counter the Oozaru weakness. It seems like the base strength of Golden Oozaru would still be higher than super saiyin, and even if it isn't, would be an interesting thing to try.
Also, I noticed that a Sorceror was actively maintaining warding. Can we use a group of Sorcerors to maintain a ward and train with higher level powers? It'd be resource intensive, but seems worth it when your training someone to face the Great Enemy.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Eh, SSJ4 was never really a proper next stage of SSJ, it was just called that for lack of better terminology. That said, I feel SSJ4 (or Primal Saiyan) should indeed be an upgrade.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Fortunately, that would not have happened in this case. You already had your exceptional result.
Interesting. Of curiosity, what would the meta reason be behind making Primal Saiyan less powerful than SSJ 2 or 3? The in-universe justifications you provide make a great deal of sense to me, but I'm curious as to why you want it to be a sidegrade as opposed to a straight upgrade.
So another question: We know that by growing muscles, we can up power level and strength while lowering speed. Is the opposite possible? Basically, lowering our muscle mass and optimising for speed instead of power to counter the Oozaru weakness. It seems like the base strength of Golden Oozaru would still be higher than super saiyin, and even if it isn't, would be an interesting thing to try.
Also, I noticed that a Sorceror was actively maintaining warding. Can we use a group of Sorcerors to maintain a ward and train with higher level powers? It'd be resource intensive, but seems worth it when your training someone to face the Great Enemy.
...interesting thought. I think it would be, but doing it in Oozaru form would be difficult to achieve.
They can actively maintain it and gain some short-term endurance that way, but the infrastructure of the wards is being strained to the breaking point at that point, so they eventually start to collapse under their own weight.
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Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
What if we practise in normal form first, and then move on to Oozaru? I mean, it's not like we have anything else to do with transformations, and getting some experience with them might help us in mastering the advance forms faster and it might even unlock other avenues that we weren't even aware of.
Finally, even if the Fast Oozaru form makes us slightly weaker than normal, having a form which can fight at super-saiyin level even after exhausting our primary body would invaluable in high level combat.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Because it's impure. It's not natural in the same way that the Super Saiyan transformation is (Super Saiyan becomes inevitable for any Saiyan who becomes strong enough, as long as they're given the right 'Switch' to activate it. The next two levels largely work the same way). The two known God variants simply start the progression from scratch, just introducing Godly Ki instead of mortal energies.
Primal Saiyan meanwhile is not. You have to master a berserk state enough to be n full control, you need to then apply the explosive power increase that Super Saiyan provides--all while remaining in control of your instincts.
And then, at the height of your power and strength, you need to compress it back down to a humanoid form.
Any Ki boosts that you'd get out of this are immediately lost simply holding it together rather than radiating outward into making you stronger.
The advantage? A Primal Saiyan's vitality and physical strength is obscene I would say. They may not gain a significantly higher power level, but a tie would pretty much always break in favor of a Primal Saiyan, and it would also give them an edge in stamina--Full Power Super Saiyan may require only a trickle on their energy reserves, but a Primal can go at 100% for hours without getting so much as winded I think, and they'd probably have some damage resistance too. We do know how much of an advantage that sheer fucking vitality can have even if you're otherwise outmatched--note Freeza basically remained capable of combat until his energy literally tapped out, and the moment that changed, he became ambulatory enough to continue fighting (Even if it backfired on him). )
Of course, Power Levels remain bullshit, and someone who hits the "Twice your rank" threshold is still likely going to hand you your ass--which makes Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 the optimal progression if you just need more biggatons, because they're vastly easier to learn and master due to their purity. Primal I think is a sidegrade that could only exist in a setting like this, where there are constraints that prevent you from going up to the higher levels. (After all, I think it was that Kid Goku just didn't have the physical stamina to maintain SS3 for more than a minute or two, and SS2 wasn't much better. He used "SS4" because it let him fight with his full and proper skill and strength again, while still providing a solid combat effectiveness boost compared to the basic Super Saiyan state)
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