Remove ads

Dragon Ball: After the End

Voting is open
Reader mode
Alectai said:
Because it's impure. It's not natural in the same way that the Super Saiyan transformation is (Super Saiyan becomes inevitable for any Saiyan who becomes strong enough, as long as they're given the right 'Switch' to activate it. The next two levels largely work the same way). The two known God variants simply start the progression from scratch, just introducing Godly Ki instead of mortal energies.

Primal Saiyan meanwhile is not. You have to master a berserk state enough to be n full control, you need to then apply the explosive power increase that Super Saiyan provides--all while remaining in control of your instincts.

And then, at the height of your power and strength, you need to compress it back down to a humanoid form.

Any Ki boosts that you'd get out of this are immediately lost simply holding it together rather than radiating outward into making you stronger.

The advantage? A Primal Saiyan's vitality and physical strength is obscene I would say. They may not gain a significantly higher power level, but a tie would pretty much always break in favor of a Primal Saiyan, and it would also give them an edge in stamina--Full Power Super Saiyan may require only a trickle on their energy reserves, but a Primal can go at 100% for hours without getting so much as winded I think, and they'd probably have some damage resistance too. We do know how much of an advantage that sheer fucking vitality can have even if you're otherwise outmatched--note Freeza basically remained capable of combat until his energy literally tapped out, and the moment that changed, he became ambulatory enough to continue fighting (Even if it backfired on him). )

Of course, Power Levels remain bullshit, and someone who hits the "Twice your rank" threshold is still likely going to hand you your ass--which makes Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 the optimal progression if you just need more biggatons, because they're vastly easier to learn and master due to their purity. Primal I think is a sidegrade that could only exist in a setting like this, where there are constraints that prevent you from going up to the higher levels. (After all, I think it was that Kid Goku just didn't have the physical stamina to maintain SS3 for more than a minute or two, and SS2 wasn't much better. He used "SS4" because it let him fight with his full and proper skill and strength again, while still providing a solid combat effectiveness boost compared to the basic Super Saiyan state)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say it has the golden oozaru power but no penalty to speed? We know that kind of improvement is a thing since Majin Buu and Super Buu had the same power level, the difference being that the second had a shape more combat capable.
 
Also final thing before I sleep: super saiyin 3.

As per canon we're actually highly unlikely to master it. Goku learnt it while dead, and Gotenks mastered it while fused.

In either case, neither could master it normally and in both cases it drained them horribly with Gotenks losing fusion time and Goku losing the day he had on earth.

While with training Goku could maintain it longer, there is no evidence in canon that a living saiyin can master it since Vegeta* didn't.

But Oozaru is naturally more resilient than our normal form and could help us learn it or at least maintain it longer.

*Now this is just my opinion, but I've always considered Vegeta more talented than Goku, at least in training if not battle sense.
Don't get me wrong, Goku is good but Goku had skilled galactic level teachers his entire life. Grandpa Gohan, Roshi, Kami, King Kai, the various people he met in the afterlife, etc while Vegeta has literally trained himself since the saiyin race was killed.​
 
Alectai said:
Any Ki boosts that you'd get out of this are immediately lost simply holding it together rather than radiating outward into making you stronger.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's pretty clearly not how things worked in GT tho', and SSJ4 is pretty much the only thing people liked from GT. I also feel that SSJ4 is more valuable as an upgrade in that it provides a non-godly way to hit in the big leagues we're going to need to fight THE ENEMY. I kinda don't want to go the god path.
 
[X] Just enter.
[X] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[X] Yes.

Like I said I don't really want the armor, but I'm willing to switch to having it and keeping it at home just to prevent actually wearing the damn thing from winning. Also seriously why the heck are some of you voting to wear it despite the message it apparently display?
 
[]Transform (into golden ape), then make* our entrance.​

The armor question is kind of redundant at this point.



Alectai said:
Because it's impure. It's not natural in the same way that the Super Saiyan transformation is (Super Saiyan becomes inevitable for any Saiyan who becomes strong enough, as long as they're given the right 'Switch' to activate it. The next two levels largely work the same way). The two known God variants simply start the progression from scratch, just introducing Godly Ki instead of mortal energies.

Primal Saiyan meanwhile is not. You have to master a berserk state enough to be n full control, you need to then apply the explosive power increase that Super Saiyan provides--all while remaining in control of your instincts.

And then, at the height of your power and strength, you need to compress it back down to a humanoid form.

Any Ki boosts that you'd get out of this are immediately lost simply holding it together rather than radiating outward into making you stronger.

The advantage? A Primal Saiyan's vitality and physical strength is obscene I would say. They may not gain a significantly higher power level, but a tie would pretty much always break in favor of a Primal Saiyan, and it would also give them an edge in stamina--Full Power Super Saiyan may require only a trickle on their energy reserves, but a Primal can go at 100% for hours without getting so much as winded I think, and they'd probably have some damage resistance too. We do know how much of an advantage that sheer fucking vitality can have even if you're otherwise outmatched--note Freeza basically remained capable of combat until his energy literally tapped out, and the moment that changed, he became ambulatory enough to continue fighting (Even if it backfired on him). )

Of course, Power Levels remain bullshit, and someone who hits the "Twice your rank" threshold is still likely going to hand you your ass--which makes Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 the optimal progression if you just need more biggatons, because they're vastly easier to learn and master due to their purity. Primal I think is a sidegrade that could only exist in a setting like this, where there are constraints that prevent you from going up to the higher levels. (After all, I think it was that Kid Goku just didn't have the physical stamina to maintain SS3 for more than a minute or two, and SS2 wasn't much better. He used "SS4" because it let him fight with his full and proper skill and strength again, while still providing a solid combat effectiveness boost compared to the basic Super Saiyan state)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There is canon speculation that the ape form is the natural, ancestral Saiyan form and their humanoid forms are a neotenic degradation. Really, it makes a lot more sense for super-Saiyan resulting from a species adaptation massive transformations and berserk survival indifference allowing a critical mass of ki to be crossed than a species "naturally" evolving a metamorphosis which never manifested until it was already functionally extinct.
 
Last edited:
Aranfan said:
That's pretty clearly not how things worked in GT tho', and SSJ4 is pretty much the only thing people liked from GT. I also feel that SSJ4 is more valuable as an upgrade in that it provides a non-godly way to hit in the big leagues we're going to need to fight THE ENEMY. I kinda don't want to go the god path.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I doubt it'll help that much.

I mean, it'll definitely be better than SSJ3 when dealing with IT, but...
 
Alectai said:
Because it's impure. It's not natural in the same way that the Super Saiyan transformation is (Super Saiyan becomes inevitable for any Saiyan who becomes strong enough, as long as they're given the right 'Switch' to activate it. The next two levels largely work the same way). The two known God variants simply start the progression from scratch, just introducing Godly Ki instead of mortal energies.

Primal Saiyan meanwhile is not. You have to master a berserk state enough to be n full control, you need to then apply the explosive power increase that Super Saiyan provides--all while remaining in control of your instincts.

And then, at the height of your power and strength, you need to compress it back down to a humanoid form.

Any Ki boosts that you'd get out of this are immediately lost simply holding it together rather than radiating outward into making you stronger.

The advantage? A Primal Saiyan's vitality and physical strength is obscene I would say. They may not gain a significantly higher power level, but a tie would pretty much always break in favor of a Primal Saiyan, and it would also give them an edge in stamina--Full Power Super Saiyan may require only a trickle on their energy reserves, but a Primal can go at 100% for hours without getting so much as winded I think, and they'd probably have some damage resistance too. We do know how much of an advantage that sheer fucking vitality can have even if you're otherwise outmatched--note Freeza basically remained capable of combat until his energy literally tapped out, and the moment that changed, he became ambulatory enough to continue fighting (Even if it backfired on him). )

Of course, Power Levels remain bullshit, and someone who hits the "Twice your rank" threshold is still likely going to hand you your ass--which makes Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 the optimal progression if you just need more biggatons, because they're vastly easier to learn and master due to their purity. Primal I think is a sidegrade that could only exist in a setting like this, where there are constraints that prevent you from going up to the higher levels. (After all, I think it was that Kid Goku just didn't have the physical stamina to maintain SS3 for more than a minute or two, and SS2 wasn't much better. He used "SS4" because it let him fight with his full and proper skill and strength again, while still providing a solid combat effectiveness boost compared to the basic Super Saiyan state)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It doesn't make sense to treat it like that because SS4 IS a massive upgrade, even if it's more like using a new base state. Higher ki levels equals greater vitality and strength (Except SS3 which seems to go through your reserves faster). SS4s aren't just physical powerhouses they also dish out a lot more in ki blasts ki then SS3s could and were faster to boot. There is a magnitude of difference between the two levels in ALL areas not just on the physical level.
 
(Shrug)

I'm trying to figure out how to make it fit into non-GT canon, where it isn't a thing. And "Super Saiyan but Better" doesn't quite fit with the new canon, where SS3 is the limit of how high a Saiyan can push themselves without something like Godly Ki.
 
@PoptartProdigy

1. I'm honestly a bit surprised "The Gold" isn't a title as well.

2. How proud is Grandma of us?

3. How likely is it do you think that the thread will continue to pursue SSJ4 after Nathaniel dropped his spoiler?
 
Quest said:
What if we practise in normal form first, and then move on to Oozaru? I mean, it's not like we have anything else to do with transformations, and getting some experience with them might help us in mastering the advance forms faster and it might even unlock other avenues that we weren't even aware of.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That would help, yes.

Alectai said:
Because it's impure. It's not natural in the same way that the Super Saiyan transformation is (Super Saiyan becomes inevitable for any Saiyan who becomes strong enough, as long as they're given the right 'Switch' to activate it. The next two levels largely work the same way). The two known God variants simply start the progression from scratch, just introducing Godly Ki instead of mortal energies.

Primal Saiyan meanwhile is not. You have to master a berserk state enough to be n full control, you need to then apply the explosive power increase that Super Saiyan provides--all while remaining in control of your instincts.

And then, at the height of your power and strength, you need to compress it back down to a humanoid form.

Any Ki boosts that you'd get out of this are immediately lost simply holding it together rather than radiating outward into making you stronger.

The advantage? A Primal Saiyan's vitality and physical strength is obscene I would say. They may not gain a significantly higher power level, but a tie would pretty much always break in favor of a Primal Saiyan, and it would also give them an edge in stamina--Full Power Super Saiyan may require only a trickle on their energy reserves, but a Primal can go at 100% for hours without getting so much as winded I think, and they'd probably have some damage resistance too. We do know how much of an advantage that sheer fucking vitality can have even if you're otherwise outmatched--note Freeza basically remained capable of combat until his energy literally tapped out, and the moment that changed, he became ambulatory enough to continue fighting (Even if it backfired on him). )

Of course, Power Levels remain bullshit, and someone who hits the "Twice your rank" threshold is still likely going to hand you your ass--which makes Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 the optimal progression if you just need more biggatons, because they're vastly easier to learn and master due to their purity. Primal I think is a sidegrade that could only exist in a setting like this, where there are constraints that prevent you from going up to the higher levels. (After all, I think it was that Kid Goku just didn't have the physical stamina to maintain SS3 for more than a minute or two, and SS2 wasn't much better. He used "SS4" because it let him fight with his full and proper skill and strength again, while still providing a solid combat effectiveness boost compared to the basic Super Saiyan state)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Very interesting. As usual, shrug of god on whether or not SSJ4/Primal Saiyan is even a thing, and, if it is, how I'll handle it, but that is a fascinating way of looking at it. I'll have to think about it.

Thanks for making me think. :) Have a cookie.

dunk1010 said:
What does the whole suppressed or not mean culture-wise ?
PoptartProdigy
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's basically how much attention you want to demand. Going in suppressed lets you sneak, going in normal will get but not demand attention, and going in transformed will draw every eye in the room instantly.

Nathaniel Wolff said:
I doubt it'll help that much.

I mean, it'll definitely be better than SSJ3 when dealing with IT, but...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Aranfan said:
I don't see why not.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Nathaniel Wolff said:
Right, you never saw that part of the convo.

And on that note, I'll shut up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Aranfan said:
God damnit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I feel like I may be missing something here. You aren't talking about our conversation thread, right, Nathaniel? Because I don't remember concluding anything about SSJ4 over there.
 
Dammit, one of the things I liked about DBZ was how gods weren't actually better than mortals. SSJ4 held the possibility of that remaining true in this quest.


Edit: The latest post by poptart has cheered me up immensely.
 
Last edited:
Man, what am I even supposed to do with this cookie.

(Takes a byte)

Hmm, I don't think I can eat this cooki
 
Aranfan said:
Dammit, one of the things I liked about DBZ was how gods weren't actually better than mortals. SSJ4 held the possibility of that remaining true in this quest.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I never said it couldn't be useful.

Just... less than you'd expect.

Personally, I put SSJ4 between SJG and SSJG.
PoptartProdigy said:
I feel like I may be missing something here. You aren't talking about our conversation thread, right, Nathaniel? Because I don't remember concluding anything about SSJ4 over there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm just drawing conclusions from what was said earlier in this thread.
 
Last edited:
Aranfan said:
@PoptartProdigy

1. I'm honestly a bit surprised "The Gold" isn't a title as well.

2. How proud is Grandma of us?

3. How likely is it do you think that the thread will continue to pursue SSJ4 after Nathaniel dropped his spoiler?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Titles refer to formal positions; reputations can include sobriquets.

You'll find out soon.

Confused myself on that one. EDIT: Ah, cleared up. The thread is updating a bit faster than I can keep up with in mobile...
 
Last edited:
[X] Just enter.

[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. And you're wearing it today.

[X] Yes.
 
*sigh* All those assumptions...

I'm saying it won't be as useful as people think because raw power won't be enough to beat IT.

Trunks went SSJ3, and got oneshot.

I doubt SSJ4 will help that.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top