fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The point of the tournament is to find fighters that fight well under the masquerade. Great Ape is not under the masquerade.
Dragon Ball: After the End
A note about research: Kakara hit "adept" as a seer. That presumably means that she can begin learning seer-style ki-blocking fighting, which is perfect for her and the sort of game-changer which might make a major difference.
@PoptartProdigy ?
That's a large part of it, but we need to prepare for the dragon as well and this is where we can take the lead. Besides, it's also about having fun and showing the flag, because it's going to conclude with an announcement of another existential threat which is going to require throwing aside that masquerade, at least briefly. What's better for morale and princess Kakara's public standing than reminding everybody that she can do the impossible and be a potent force in her own right while also giving ordinary Saiyans a chance to contribute to their own defense?
@PoptartProdigy ?
That's a large part of it, but we need to prepare for the dragon as well and this is where we can take the lead. Besides, it's also about having fun and showing the flag, because it's going to conclude with an announcement of another existential threat which is going to require throwing aside that masquerade, at least briefly. What's better for morale and princess Kakara's public standing than reminding everybody that she can do the impossible and be a potent force in her own right while also giving ordinary Saiyans a chance to contribute to their own defense?
Actually, I'm fairly sure only the Super Saiyans will be fighting the Dragon.
And no, this is a tournament specifically for the invasion. The Dragon is an entirely separate issue.
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This tournament is followed by the announcement of the dragon. The two are inevitably linked whether we like it or not. And while the SSJs will certainly be fighting the dragon, this is the kind of threat where even ordinary Saiyans can actually help. An Oozaru's durability allows it to sustain absurdly high Kaio-ken and Kikoho ratios. It's one of the few non-SSJ threats the royalty are concerned about because it's actually in their weight class. It's slow, but that's not terribly important if it's in a support and artillery role for the front-line royalty. These are Saiyans. Giving them a way to contribute to their own defense instead of sitting passively is going to be a massive morale boost, all while winning Kakara all the love in the one fighting field she is legendary enough at to actually win without resorting to brute force.
Why wouldn't Kakara the mighty golden princess ape show her best with a message of hope and solidarity at the largest Saiyan gathering of the decade?
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Well, I will make one big assumption you're making: that the non-SSJ's can or should contribute. There's a whole set of possible reasons why that may be unworkable or counter-productive. For all we know, the thing has an instant-death radius for anything without a base PL of 200 million or higher.
I'm not aware of that. Is it omnidirectional, and what's the exact radius?
Tien single-handedly immobilized semi-perfect Cell, an Ascended SSJ level threat, for minutes on end. If he had had a great ape's durability he could have kept it up all day, or just gone Kaio-ken x50 and ended him. Now imagine that there were three dozen of those firing salvo after salvo of team-trained long-range artillery support over and over again while four SSJ-apes do the close-in work. Even if every single blast only knocks off a single scale or disrupts the dragon for a fraction of a second that still quickly adds up to a hell of a contribution.
More importantly, this makes Kakara look really, really good.
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
@Lailoken that is not the right way to go about this. Even with Kaiokenx10 they would be too squishy against the dragon so how well they fight as oozaru is not that relevant. What we would want is moving artillery using kaioken and IT. Both of those techniques are harder to learn than it is to master oozaru. If anything, we would want to recruit people that are good at those and then train them in great ape than the other way around. It would be faster and more effective.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think we should rule OUT the possibility of using coordinated tactics by base saiyans who make use of the oozaru form. It's a potential tool in our arsenal, and it might help- this fight looks like it's going to be close enough that we shouldn't pass up on anything likely to help.
While Seers tend to have weak power levels, I'm pretty sure they're not that weak. Remember, Dandeer has a power level high enough to blow up the planet- that is to say, significant on Saiyan Saga power levels at a minimum. And if Dandeer does, it's likely that a significant fraction of all Seers go at least that high, too.
Plenty of saiyans know ki healing, but it occurs to me that there's good odds none of them are super-saiyans. Berra, we're pretty sure, doesn't have the skill.
This. We know there are saiyans attempting fusion research, limited and deterred mainly by just how staggeringly dangerous a botched fusion can be. There MUST be a lot of people attempting to reinvent the Spirit Bomb. We don't have a lot of obvious advantages over all those other failed attempts... EXCEPT for prodigy-level ki talent equal or better than anyone else in our society. Hmmm.
Yes, the Spirit Bomb does have a minimum power level. That power level is somewhere between eight thousand and thirty-two thousand, because Goku used it at that power level.
While Seers tend to have weak power levels, I'm pretty sure they're not that weak. Remember, Dandeer has a power level high enough to blow up the planet- that is to say, significant on Saiyan Saga power levels at a minimum. And if Dandeer does, it's likely that a significant fraction of all Seers go at least that high, too.
While "you need to create the need" works for saiyan transformations, I'm not sure it works the same way for Kanassan Sight.
Thaaaat... is a very good point.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I loved everything about this update.
As for the actions... I think we should 1) take Desperate Research: Perfect Multiform on the basis that as @Simon_Jester just pointed out, we've already had loads of other people working on the famous, flashy techniques like the Spirit Bomb and Fusion, whereas very few people will have been working on PM for reasons discussed in an earlier vote (they only just discovered Shin Kikoho, it's not actually a Z-fighter technique, etc.). It's still a game-changer, since it literally quadruples our personal strength at any PL. On a somewhat less important note (but not negligible) it will also definitely level up Multiform, meaning an extra action next year - not relevant to this crisis, but we're always starved for actions...
I think we should also take some Tien Style actions as well though - our lack of a developed style is our single major weak point, combat-wise. (Social-wise it's Deceit.) Whilst Ki Manipulation and Team Fighting would both be useful to train up, I believe they offer diminishing returns in contrast to Tien Style, as they are already trained up to "Talented". Team Fighting might not even level up with a single action, in which case the AP is effectively wasted.
So:
[X][TRAIN] Tien Style [1 AP] x2
[X][TRAIN] Desperate Research (Perfect Multiform) [2 AP]
As for the actions... I think we should 1) take Desperate Research: Perfect Multiform on the basis that as @Simon_Jester just pointed out, we've already had loads of other people working on the famous, flashy techniques like the Spirit Bomb and Fusion, whereas very few people will have been working on PM for reasons discussed in an earlier vote (they only just discovered Shin Kikoho, it's not actually a Z-fighter technique, etc.). It's still a game-changer, since it literally quadruples our personal strength at any PL. On a somewhat less important note (but not negligible) it will also definitely level up Multiform, meaning an extra action next year - not relevant to this crisis, but we're always starved for actions...
I think we should also take some Tien Style actions as well though - our lack of a developed style is our single major weak point, combat-wise. (Social-wise it's Deceit.) Whilst Ki Manipulation and Team Fighting would both be useful to train up, I believe they offer diminishing returns in contrast to Tien Style, as they are already trained up to "Talented". Team Fighting might not even level up with a single action, in which case the AP is effectively wasted.
So:
[X][TRAIN] Tien Style [1 AP] x2
[X][TRAIN] Desperate Research (Perfect Multiform) [2 AP]
x10? We've been told that Oozaru can casually manage x20 - x50 nearly indefinitely due to their durability. While you've got a point about recruitment, that's not a good reason for Kakara not to show her stuff here. There's only a few hundred Oozaru specialists on the planet, and it may take more than the less-than-a-year we have to master and then train up to max and then train in team fighting.
Let's give Kakara her Big Damn Hero moment instead of brute forcing a fight nobody stands a chance in or letting her get publicly humiliated. In Oozaru with multiform and split SSJ pool she can really show herself in an epic multi-fighter brawl people will talk about for generations.
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Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Citation?
Actually, no, we haven't from what I can remember and find. The most I can find is speculation about such things, and I believe the maximum is x20.
Anyway, getting off that, we need to think of a solution to another issue: Dandeer, and her potentially interfering with the fight against the Dragon and/or the Invasion. Suggestions?
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
She might think the dragon too strong to interfere with since her family dies if we lose. Then again, as long as it isn't Berra who dies and the dragon is defeated then casualties among the other 3 benefit her.
As for the invasion, the better we do against the dragon the more loved we are and the less sge can do publicly against us. Genkidama and Jaffur's trick would help with that since it would make us essential.
As for PM, I half suspect that the four bodies having access to our full power is compensated by being four times as draining stamina wise. I am also not sure how combining beams wouldwork with it.
- Location
- Wherever two rivers long to be one
...I think it's kinda strange we're being asked to decide what we've been training for the Dragon BEFORE Jaffur gives us a crash course on his technique. Has that conversation really not already happened, or am I just having a brain fart? @PoptartProdigy, not to add the deluge, but what's our status on this? Because I can't vote for what we've been training without knowing what our progress is or isn't, and what kind of timeframe for learning Jaffur gave us... or didn't, I guess, if we really haven't gone back to tell him yet. I mean, we can assume that we stand a reasonable chance of unlocking it here with Desperate Research, especially on the backs of our previous research actions towards it, but I don't like the possibility of wasting AP on doing this when we've already voted to be taught it directly by it's creator. And I'm really nervous about trying it without Jaffur's supervision when he outright told us how dangerous it is to learn.In the mean time, looking at our options... will training Tien Style really get us any meaningful progress from it, considering the timeframe Poptart gave us for leveling it? And even if it does, is that really going to help us fight the Dragon? It seems like focusing more on training Kikoho and maybe Kaioken (if we can do it safely) seems to be the most we can assuredly contribute to the dragon fight... Team Fighting is also super desirable so we can avoid stepping on the toes of our much more skilled teammates. The new Desperate Training mechanic actually makes Perfect Multiform possible to learn in time for it though, making me really want to go for it. Ki Manipulation would probably be a significant boost to everything we'll be using.
Hrm...
So, we have the potential of several dozen pieces of mobile artillery who consider Kaio-ken surging to 600 million nothing (with emphasis!). Do you want to see what they can do with the Kikoho surge on top of that? Y'know, the heavy artillery attack which they are especially well-suited for and which even has a built-in magnifying scope? What about swarms of kienzan? We can have dozens of bazooka-wielding snipers with power levels about half that of the front-line fighters at a minimum backing them up. As for being squishy, remember that their effective durability is half-again their power level, so they'd each be at least 900 million for the purposes of tanking any punch or blast which managed to hit them at that range.
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The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
[x][FIGHT] Cynthia Balor vs. Mitsuba Roma. Odds favor Mitsuba, and heavily; Cynthia's not a fighter by trade. It won't be a very good fight. Pity, but there'll be other fights for you to watch today.
You know I want to see this fight.
[X][TRAIN] Desperate Research (Spirit Bomb) [2 AP]
[X][TRAIN] Tien Style [1 AP] x2
Because I want Kakara to be able to draw in outside energy and use it to attack things. Spirit Kamehamehas, Spirit Tribeams, Spirit SSJ... the list is endless!
You know I want to see this fight.
[X][TRAIN] Desperate Research (Spirit Bomb) [2 AP]
[X][TRAIN] Tien Style [1 AP] x2
Because I want Kakara to be able to draw in outside energy and use it to attack things. Spirit Kamehamehas, Spirit Tribeams, Spirit SSJ... the list is endless!
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Y'know what, even if you disagree about recruiting artillery to help in the coming fight, you have to admit that watching Kakara multiform into golden ape and perfectly synchronized super-saiyan in a king-of-the-hill arena battle would be awesome. As her father said, she's here because she needs to take every chance she has to look good to the Saiyans. What is going to look better than reminding them that she is the legendary golden princess who surpassed even the achievements of the ancient gods themselves in a fight she actually stands a chance in and which everybody will still be talking about to their great-grandchildren?
What's the alternative? Go out there an humiliate power-capped opponents under the pretense of analyzing them? That's Berra's job, and it's not going to win any favor when it's clear that she only stands a chance by cheating. Go out there and not cheat? Get humiliated by vastly superior fighters and undermine her image? That's not going to impress anybody.
Multiformed great ape in a setting which allows multiple combatants to take on the current king of the hill at the same time is the only situation where she both has enough of a competitive advantage to stand a chance of outright winning and won't look bad if she doesn't come out on top. It's also, and this is the really important bit, a hell of a show.
[X] Great Ape Rumble
What's the alternative? Go out there an humiliate power-capped opponents under the pretense of analyzing them? That's Berra's job, and it's not going to win any favor when it's clear that she only stands a chance by cheating. Go out there and not cheat? Get humiliated by vastly superior fighters and undermine her image? That's not going to impress anybody.
Multiformed great ape in a setting which allows multiple combatants to take on the current king of the hill at the same time is the only situation where she both has enough of a competitive advantage to stand a chance of outright winning and won't look bad if she doesn't come out on top. It's also, and this is the really important bit, a hell of a show.
[X] Great Ape Rumble
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Which do you think would be harder to learn perfect Multiform or spirit bomb?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If you are voting to do it twice put a x2 at the end of the second one.
I think it would be easiest to learn ki-blocking, since it's an already existent technique and Kakara just became an adept seer.
Alternatively, Kaio-ken has a lot of potential for her. Kakara could multiform with a normal FPSSJ and a normal (with a much higher base power cap) Oozaru which at x20 would have a power level well exceeding golden great ape. She could hit harder and from multiple coordinated directions. Even at only x2 she'd be able to match her golden great ape power level while still having a smaller, faster form of her dancing about at FPSSJ.
Alternatively, Kaio-ken has a lot of potential for her. Kakara could multiform with a normal FPSSJ and a normal (with a much higher base power cap) Oozaru which at x20 would have a power level well exceeding golden great ape. She could hit harder and from multiple coordinated directions. Even at only x2 she'd be able to match her golden great ape power level while still having a smaller, faster form of her dancing about at FPSSJ.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
I doubt it'd be useful against a creature we don't know the biology of, tho.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Against this enemy in this situation spirit bomb should be more useful then even prefect Multiform.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
And for all we know isn't even ki based.
Perfect sight seems like the perfect thing to have in such a situation. There seems to be an X-ray vision and predictive element. Seeing what looks important inside, what would happen if it went squish, and how best to make that happen might be kind of handy.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
We don't actually know if ki blocking would be effective against an enemy of that magnitude. As for kaioken... it does work for our artillery but doing it ourselves is a bad idea. Oozaru would be at 750 million so even a kaioken times 3 means we would be detected from outside the system and with our ki recognizable as saiyan. If we are looking for ways to augment our effective power level it would be better to use either Jaffur's trick (which reads as lowers tan its strenght) or genkidama (which doesn't read as saiyan). At least with the artillery idea, each of the "cannons" has a PL outside the detction range individually.
Though it says they can go times 20 easily when they are experienced users. We are unlikely to reach that stage unless we go all in with training and Dad already knows kaioken so if things get that desperate he can be the one using it. We might be better suited researching the alternative methods so that we can win the battle without losing the war.
Also, whil I don't quite agree with the idea of Monkey King of the Hill, I assume you mean it using Multiform so as to not strain the wards of the hall?