- Location
- Australia
Berra sucks.
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You do not; the Seers do not publicize it and thus it remains largely untested in direct combat.
My, you are taking that sentence and running far, far away with it.
Why do you say that?
- Location
- Australia
Because apparently it was necessary for Carrick to paralyse and threaten to kill our parents just to convince them that a violence-disliking Scion was viable. Simply seeing the future and knowing that it was a good idea wouldn't have been enough to convince him, which meant Mato would've been Scion just because he likes beating people up and we don't.
Again, a future vision wasn't enough - Berra had to be paralysed and have his life threatened just to get it through his head that liking violence isn't the only viable path.
Last edited:
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
I think it's less that a violence-hating scion was so bad, but that a scion-seer was so incredibly important that Carrick had to ensure that there wasn't the faintest possibility of a chance she could be removed.
Or, you know:
1) Sensei overreacted/wanted to be absolutely sure/wasn't sure about our fathers stance on such things.
2) Berra would do so because he'd want to spare us the difficulties and heart-break it would bring.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Again, you are running with that far further than it's intended to go. Berra is on-record as having no personal issue with Kakara's stance on violence. Your mother has no issue with it either. They've both supported Kakara every step of the way, and Berra has flat-out told her that it is her decision, which he will respect.
However, neither of them are idiots. They are aware of how politically unpopular Kakara's views are. If you recall, back when the Quest began, one of her Clansmen -- a man comfortable enough to speak with her mother on a first-name basis -- was openly disrespectful to her. It was that bad, and only abated when (the world believed) you beat the tar out of Jaffur.
Carrick saw that, and worried that Kakara's parents might be moved to remove her -- for politics or care, either. What I said was only that years later, Kakara's parents realized for themselves that that was probably his motive. Not that his fears were justified.
- Location
- Australia
Your counterpoints both fail utterly. Read the thing I was quoting and what I said. I'm not saying "Carrick did violence because he was scared we might be rejected for pacifism", I'm commenting on the fact that Berra himself saw the value in Carrick doing violence to ensure our inheritance. That is, Berra himself thought that if Carrick had not taken those extreme measures, he might've taken the Scionship away from Kakara despite a Seer's approval.
Fair enough. Berra is not quite as bad of a person as I thought. The length and breadth of his many mistakes and the things he's done to "correct" them still make me think quite poorly of him, however.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That is well within your rights. I build these flaws into characters deliberately; it is up to you all whether to forgive or despise them. Just...don't judge new information so quickly, especially when the conclusions it leads you to contradict old data. I'm not here to tell anybody to like Berra; I'm just making sure that, if you dislike him, you do so for things he's actually done.
- Location
- Australia
Speaking of horrible people, @PoptartProdigy, Kakara's still ok with killing Dandeer, right? She's still an exception to her "no kill" rule?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Given that she is Kakara's sole Hated Enemy, and the trait specifically disclaims exceptions for Hated Enemies...
- Location
- Australia
Fuck. Can we at least allow Jaffur to kill her?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
That is the plan.
- Location
- Australia
Good. This has been Plan A from the start so I'm not upset that if we can't kill her ourselves, we are at least assured of her death.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Not IC, no.
- Location
- United States
Or we can just capture her and then get another sorceror to do to her what she did to jaffur.
- Location
- Australia
FUCK!!! How the hell did that happen from the choices we made!? Even Batman isn't as strict with not killing people!
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Kakara went to some mental lengths to find a solution wherein nobody died during the course of a nuclear exchange and a school-wide hostage scenario. Non-lethality was going to be involved somewhere in there.
Lunaryon
Dual Aurora Wave
- Pronouns
- She/Her
See, the solution is really easy.
Asking forgiveness is easier than asking for permission.
And if we don't happen to be at Jaffur's house when he first returns to his home...
Well, what happens behind closed doors.
- Location
- Australia
Yeah, no, I get the whole "Kakara will not kill people" thing. It's annoying but I understand it. It's the "Don't let those same people get killed by people who should kill them" bit that's a fair bit more reaching.
How did "I hate this woman so much and I will let Jaffur kill her" turn into "I made sure no one I have any kind of real grudge against died, therefore I will stop my most hated enemy from getting the death she so richly deserves at the hand of the person who absolutely should be allowed to kill her, even if I have to use force to ensure her survival"?
Last edited:
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
We have hope that we can resolve this peacefully.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Good question. In this case, it's this: Kakara has now had her determination to preserve even her enemies' lives, even when said enemies are determined to die, tested and reinforced through actual struggle. Her viewpoint has matured and she has pruned out the exceptions.
She also recognizes that there's not exactly what you'd call a vast gulf between murdering somebody personally and knowingly allowing somebody to be murdered.
That is not to say that Kakara is opposed to violence in this case. Just death.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly...
Can we just accept that in-character, Kakara doesn't think Dandeer deserves to die anymore?
Dandeer dying isn't going to give me pleasure in-story. I get the feeling that for some people she's, like, a proxy for other characters they hate, or even real people they hate, and I can sympathize with that... But I don't think it's a good idea to get upset over a lack of opportunities to kill off a fictional antagonist.
...
Look, Dandeer did one very terrible thing, I get that. It affected all of two people, one of whom almost certainly deserved it and would have murdered or tortured his own family if it hadn't been done.
She did that after experiencing massive, mind-crushing trauma over a period of many years that seems to have badly warped her mind and attitudes, leaving her in a situation where she seems to have believed that either her actions were in fact not harming anyone, or that her actions were necessary, or both.
Compared to the level of evilness of actual Dragonball villains, she barely even shows up on the radar. I'm not going to even try to list all the Dragonball characters responsible for hundreds or thousands of deaths, including those considered redeemable or even good.
Vegeta tried to blow up the Earth, plus killing I don't even know how many people on Namek, plus other planets he depopulated in Frieza's name. Dandeer's level of actual sins, in the sense of evil acts committed that reflect personal character deficiencies, is measured in, like... micro-Vegetas, at worst. Probably nano-Vegetas.
For Kakara, the combination of collateral damage potential from long range blasts, plus the fact that it's hard to calibrate a ki blast so it affects your opponent without killing them, it's counterproductive.
Vegeta Style is, appropriately, a good style for a self-identified "warrior prince" who expects to be stronger than his enemies but probably outnumbered by them, doesn't give a damn about collateral damage, and is willing to kill his opponents.
Goku doesn't use his superhuman strength and Instant Transmission to make millions transporting big expensive objects around the world instantly. Krillin doesn't use Destructo Disks to cleave through mountains for construction projects. Piccolo doesn't open up his own "fly your stuff into space" business and outcompete commercial satellite launchers.
So just because these techniques were developed with the intent of using them in combat, doesn't mean that's all they're for. Kakara isn't using Multiform for battle, but that's because Kakara has only fought two battles since she began studying Multiform, and she hasn't studied a combat style that would enable her to use Multiform to best effect in any case.
The Enemy may not rely entirely, or may not rely at all, on ki as we know it. Their powers may involve sorcery, for example, or may be some kind of totally unique and unknown thing.
Can we just accept that in-character, Kakara doesn't think Dandeer deserves to die anymore?
Dandeer dying isn't going to give me pleasure in-story. I get the feeling that for some people she's, like, a proxy for other characters they hate, or even real people they hate, and I can sympathize with that... But I don't think it's a good idea to get upset over a lack of opportunities to kill off a fictional antagonist.
...
Look, Dandeer did one very terrible thing, I get that. It affected all of two people, one of whom almost certainly deserved it and would have murdered or tortured his own family if it hadn't been done.
She did that after experiencing massive, mind-crushing trauma over a period of many years that seems to have badly warped her mind and attitudes, leaving her in a situation where she seems to have believed that either her actions were in fact not harming anyone, or that her actions were necessary, or both.
Compared to the level of evilness of actual Dragonball villains, she barely even shows up on the radar. I'm not going to even try to list all the Dragonball characters responsible for hundreds or thousands of deaths, including those considered redeemable or even good.
Vegeta tried to blow up the Earth, plus killing I don't even know how many people on Namek, plus other planets he depopulated in Frieza's name. Dandeer's level of actual sins, in the sense of evil acts committed that reflect personal character deficiencies, is measured in, like... micro-Vegetas, at worst. Probably nano-Vegetas.
Yeah. Looking at Vegeta Style, the preferred techniques list consists of four "high-energy directional blast" attacks, plus Crowd Fighting. It's almost certainly the definitive 'blaster' style of martial arts among the Exiles, but if you aren't planning on fighting with blasts it's kind of useless.
For Kakara, the combination of collateral damage potential from long range blasts, plus the fact that it's hard to calibrate a ki blast so it affects your opponent without killing them, it's counterproductive.
Vegeta Style is, appropriately, a good style for a self-identified "warrior prince" who expects to be stronger than his enemies but probably outnumbered by them, doesn't give a damn about collateral damage, and is willing to kill his opponents.
I'm curious as to why. You say...Yup.
Were that a thing, yes.
Piccolo style is mentioned because she hates it.
In-story is there a narrative reason for that? Or did she just roll badly during character creation or something?
I think that's because most of the Z fighters are really, really focused on combat utility or martial arts for the martial arts' sake. Most of them don't seem to have much in the way of gainful employment or ambitions in life beyond "be hella strong and cultivate your ki."
Goku doesn't use his superhuman strength and Instant Transmission to make millions transporting big expensive objects around the world instantly. Krillin doesn't use Destructo Disks to cleave through mountains for construction projects. Piccolo doesn't open up his own "fly your stuff into space" business and outcompete commercial satellite launchers.
So just because these techniques were developed with the intent of using them in combat, doesn't mean that's all they're for. Kakara isn't using Multiform for battle, but that's because Kakara has only fought two battles since she began studying Multiform, and she hasn't studied a combat style that would enable her to use Multiform to best effect in any case.
Hypothesis: Some of this may be because Berra is soooo Gokun (complete with raising a Goku-esque combat style to the highest level of refinement ever known among the Exiles) that his wife has spontaneously started channeling Chi-Chi.
Hypothesis:
The Enemy may not rely entirely, or may not rely at all, on ki as we know it. Their powers may involve sorcery, for example, or may be some kind of totally unique and unknown thing.
From the sound of it, they're both pretty damn talented at ki usage, too...
Lunaryon
Dual Aurora Wave
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You are entirely right.
She probably doesn't deserve to die. And a lot of my rage at her faded when we discovered that Jaffur wasn't completely sealed.
But at the same time, she very much hits one of my existential horror buttons.
If anything, I want her to understand exactly why I get pissed at the very concept of destroying the memories of others.
But I don't have any idea of how to reach out to her and have her listen. She seems to be completely unwilling to see as her being wrong.
I mean, my unending rage won't even let my support a plan of Sealing her, because I am THAT against the concept as a whole.
She probably doesn't deserve to die. And a lot of my rage at her faded when we discovered that Jaffur wasn't completely sealed.
But at the same time, she very much hits one of my existential horror buttons.
If anything, I want her to understand exactly why I get pissed at the very concept of destroying the memories of others.
But I don't have any idea of how to reach out to her and have her listen. She seems to be completely unwilling to see as her being wrong.
I mean, my unending rage won't even let my support a plan of Sealing her, because I am THAT against the concept as a whole.