- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That also. There are many different timelines, and not all Enemies are the same.
Dragon Ball: After the End
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
What if keeping Dandeer alive, well, and able to perform her Magic is the only way to keep anyone we care about from dying to the Enemy?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, hey, look at that, the vote closed.
Presentsight it is!
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 568 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 14179-14312]
##### NetTally 1.9.8
[X] What is.
No. of Votes: 13
[x] What will be.
No. of Votes: 7
[X] What was.
No. of Votes: 7
[X] What was, will be. What will be, was.
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 28
##### NetTally 1.9.8
[X] What is.
No. of Votes: 13
[x] What will be.
No. of Votes: 7
[X] What was.
No. of Votes: 7
[X] What was, will be. What will be, was.
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 28
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Oh, I didn't vote.
Oops.
Eh, not like I had a strong opinion, anyway.
Oops.
Eh, not like I had a strong opinion, anyway.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Putting aside whether she deserves it or not, killing Dandeer is the wrong move, specially if it is Jaffur that does it. Not only would it fuck him up to kill his own mother but what about Jaron and their sister? They both love their mother and if she died because of this then Jaffur would lose their support. Given that Jaffur is not the most estable of guys, all that he went through and that he seems to have imprinted on Jaron and uses him as emotional support, that can't end well.
After his sealing, Jaffur should focus on constructive things, not have more trauma pilled on top of him and Jaron doesn't deserve to lose his mother. As distasteful as it is, we must prioritize what is best for Jaffur and Jaron over what we think of Dandeer, otherwise we risk a second sundering with Jaron instead of Berra. Clan Vegeta already had his share of insane leaders and I don't want to curse them with another generation of them. Besides, an insane Jaffur scares me more than his father and after all the effort put in this conspiracy, it would be a shame to have to fulfill our promise to Jii-chan and put Jaffur down.
Also, have I mentioned Jaron would be crushed? I don't know if our friendshipcould recover from that.
After his sealing, Jaffur should focus on constructive things, not have more trauma pilled on top of him and Jaron doesn't deserve to lose his mother. As distasteful as it is, we must prioritize what is best for Jaffur and Jaron over what we think of Dandeer, otherwise we risk a second sundering with Jaron instead of Berra. Clan Vegeta already had his share of insane leaders and I don't want to curse them with another generation of them. Besides, an insane Jaffur scares me more than his father and after all the effort put in this conspiracy, it would be a shame to have to fulfill our promise to Jii-chan and put Jaffur down.
Also, have I mentioned Jaron would be crushed? I don't know if our friendshipcould recover from that.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Bakkasama , that is very insightful of you.
So while Dandeer will probably have a few sorcerous tricks up her sleeve unknown or unimagined by any other sorceror, she's almost certainly NOT a magic-user who is to other sorcerors as a super-saiyan is to normal saiyans. The things we know other sorcerors can do provide us with a clue as to what Dandeer can do, in terms of the scale of her powers if not their exact nature.
1) Transform in an eyeblink, put her in a chokehold, and say "play nice."
2) Pre-empt the threat by asking Dandelor if he can construct wards to protect us from sorcery, or if he can give us an object that stores such wards.
Then we descend through other, further plans, like:
X) Teleport away
Then and only then do we include plans of unknown or exotic character, that may or may not even be viable, like
Y) Use telepathy offensively as a concentration-breaking scream when we don't know if it can be used that way,
Y+!) Play games involving us having a saiyan Masque when that may have no effect on whatever she does in any case.
...
I mainly want to make sure we don't forget that we have good plans that are highly likely to work unless Dandeer is able to make extremely refined and previously unknown preparations of a type that would be strongly discouraged within Exile culture as a whole, because you're really not supposed to ask the question "how do you defeat a super-saiyan with sorcery?"
Sure, we should have backup plans in case Dandeer succeeds in doing this, but we shouldn't just assume she has counters to our obvious tactical advantages purely because they're obvious advantages. There may well be good reasons why Dandeer hasn't confronted us directly, and I'm sure there are good reasons why she hasn't tried to Seal, say... Yammar.
I KNOW, RIGHT!?
That said, Dandeer is limited by the state of her Art. What no living or recently dead sorceror knows, Dandeer could not have learned. She'd have to invent it for herself, which takes considerable time and effort, and works better with collaborators. And she appears to have few or no collaborators.
So while Dandeer will probably have a few sorcerous tricks up her sleeve unknown or unimagined by any other sorceror, she's almost certainly NOT a magic-user who is to other sorcerors as a super-saiyan is to normal saiyans. The things we know other sorcerors can do provide us with a clue as to what Dandeer can do, in terms of the scale of her powers if not their exact nature.
What we should do is prepare a descending-order list of plans that could be used against her, starting from the most obvious, like:
1) Transform in an eyeblink, put her in a chokehold, and say "play nice."
2) Pre-empt the threat by asking Dandelor if he can construct wards to protect us from sorcery, or if he can give us an object that stores such wards.
Then we descend through other, further plans, like:
X) Teleport away
Then and only then do we include plans of unknown or exotic character, that may or may not even be viable, like
Y) Use telepathy offensively as a concentration-breaking scream when we don't know if it can be used that way,
Y+!) Play games involving us having a saiyan Masque when that may have no effect on whatever she does in any case.
...
I mainly want to make sure we don't forget that we have good plans that are highly likely to work unless Dandeer is able to make extremely refined and previously unknown preparations of a type that would be strongly discouraged within Exile culture as a whole, because you're really not supposed to ask the question "how do you defeat a super-saiyan with sorcery?"
Sure, we should have backup plans in case Dandeer succeeds in doing this, but we shouldn't just assume she has counters to our obvious tactical advantages purely because they're obvious advantages. There may well be good reasons why Dandeer hasn't confronted us directly, and I'm sure there are good reasons why she hasn't tried to Seal, say... Yammar.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
We should figure out how to heal with Ki, well get the nickname Mercy if we do.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Well, I don't know if we can heal with ki directly but we do have a medicine skill at competent. If train that alongside ki techniques like telekinesis, ki sense, mind delve, our sight and others, we should be able to become a miraculous surgeon, especially if we can turn it into a style.
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The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
I mean, you don't know if A. what Jaron's relationship with his mother is and B. if Jaffur wants her dead.
From what I know about Jaffur... he'd consider Death too good for her. Now, ripping her Gift out of her and leaving her a powerless husk of a woman is more likely, but not strait-out murder.
*cackles intensely*
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Gonna agree with this;
The logic that ki blocking is all we need also ignores the possibility they are 'just' a ki user... that has a fighting style that makes them borderline immune to being touched. Imagine a fighting style based around instant transmission and area denial effects, say.
This cuts off. I also happen to agree that kill Dandeer shouldn't be a goal. An option on the table if we think there's no better solution to the problems she represents, but we have been playing a good character from step one. Murder-revenge should not be one of our absolute top priorities, particularly when we have a capitalized, super terrifying, The Enemy to worry about that Dandeer is probably not connected to and is definitely less important than.
Hey, question, @PoptartProdigy. Is our ki sensing at all capable of determining facing? And relatedly does the sorcery line of sight limit require actual vision or just an unobstructed line?
I'm basically wondering if we can, if needed, IT to right behind Dandeer and take her out from behind before she has any chance to sorcery-anything us.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
That'd require her to have no allies screening to prevent that
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Maybe your version of Jaffur.
Sorcery requires line of sight very literally, and you cannot determine facing via ki sight.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
Please, like any mini Vegeta wouldn't go for the Karmic punishment of strait boring deathMaybe your version of Jaffur.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You may feel entitled to your opinion, on the understanding that I feel no compulsion to vindicate it.Please, like any mini Vegeta wouldn't go for the Karmic punishment of strait boring death
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Ah. Still may be able to indirectly determine facing via eg motion, other nearby signatures (under the assumption she is eg facing the only other person in the room, which has a risk of being incorrect, of course)
... Though that just reinforces why she can't just no sell Super Saiyans. Since they'll have a relatively easy time circling around and the like.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My ideal Operation Jaffur ends with Jaffur regaining his title as Scion, with someone acting as his regent for a little bit, his dad remaining Sealed, our Dad remaining Lord Goku, and Dandeer neutralized as a threat. Because honestly, Dandeer is unstable and dangerous. She is simply a bit too broken to be reasonable for quite a while, and she could not give less of a shit about anyone that isn't Saiyan. Killing her is obviously the safest option pragmatically speaking, but that has effects on Kakara, and will cause even more ripples throughout Saiyan society than we're already making.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
We know Jaron loves her. That was included in the spell when she put the masque on him.
It is one of Jaron's defining traits so I doubt he would like Jaffur to kill her or worse.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm sorry, did you have anything to say? Or are you just trying to randomly inject doubt as to the validity of my reasoning, by leveraging your position of knowing a lot of backstory information, using substance-free cackling?
We do know The Enemy handily defeated several powerful warriors who excelled at close combat, but also at ranged combat and DOOODGE! You're right to point out what you point out, though.
Yeah. The bit that got cut off isn't very important- just me agreeing that while defeating Dandeer by neutralizing the Seal is one of our priorities... neutralizing Dandeer herself is not, at least not in and of itself. If we could persuade her to release the Seal, that would be GREAT. It may not be possible but it'd be great!
An end to the 'Sealing arc' in which Dandeer is alive and well, Jaffur is alive, well, and free, and Jaron is alive and well... That enough to count as a Good Ending in my book. Maybe even the Golden Ending.
I would argue that killing Dandeer isn't preferable to not killing Dandeer, from the quest's point of view.
There are probably a LOT of saiyans who don't care very much about Garenhulder native deaths. I very much doubt that Dandeer was the only one who would have said "so what if nukes land on Tastreya now that all of us are out of there?" Because, again, she's not a cartoonish villain figure by the standards of her own society. Any opinion she has that isn't directly about her own personal life, is probably an opinion shared by a significant number of her peers.
Even if Dandeer just vanished in a puff of plot hole tomorrow, we'd still be contending with influential saiyans who think the Masquerade is important, value the Exile community they're members of, and don't much value the Garenhulders except insofar as they offer protective camouflage for the Exiles.
As to her 'broken-ness...' Nearly all of it involves her own family. A resolution to the Sealing Arc that resolves her family troubles without killing her will make her, de facto, a lot less broken.
Lunaryon
Dual Aurora Wave
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly...
Wait. Can we do that?
We have the ability to mind read, right? Can we reverse that?
Force Dandeer to live through what she did to her husband and her son. Make her understand, make her experience those memories of being sealed away and left still conscious.
Wait. Can we do that?
We have the ability to mind read, right? Can we reverse that?
Force Dandeer to live through what she did to her husband and her son. Make her understand, make her experience those memories of being sealed away and left still conscious.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Mind rape isn't very pacifistic
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Personally, I'd also argue 'are we sure there are any not broken Saiyans?'
Look at Yammar. Apra is friends with him. Our father used to be friends with Vegeta Vegeta. And so on.
I'm not actually sure the average Saiyan is without major psychological issues, given the sample we've seen- including Kakara.
Which, mind, makes them very human.
But if Dandeer is actually of average broken-ness, saying she needs to die is tantamount to saying half the Saiyan race needs to die.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We can not currently mind read. Considering that it is based on ki sense we would likely be very good at it if we trained in it, but we have not learned it yet.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Lord Vegeta is almost certainly not in the same state as Jaffur, because he's almost certainly not a latent sorceror who had the advantage of the super-saiyan transformation being upon him when Dandeer Sealed him.
Furthermore, Lord Vegeta is a horrible, violently abusive shit and half a lifetime of solitary locked-in syndrome may well be little or no worse than he deserves.
I wouldn't complain about Dandeer having to experience what Jaffur's experienced, though.
Dandeer has reason to be of above average broken-ness, because she's been under above average stress- violently abusive husband, whose rank and power within saiyan society makes it uniquely impossible for her to defend herself against his abuse, either physically or legally. But you're not wrong to point out that there are probably a LOT of saiyans with mental health issues of one degree or another... and it only takes a power level of ten or twenty thousand to blow up the planet. Somehow, the Exiles manage.
Part of the problem is that we have so many secrets that letting anyone else read OUR minds would be a disaster...