Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Just abuse Seer and Multiform to form a second mind around our mind that seems perfectly innocent.
Dragon Ball: After the End
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I don't think that is a "just" type of deal.
zephraim
Azlanti Pureblood
- Location
- Ottumwa, IA
-Edit (Bakkasama) As distasteful as it is, we must prioritize what is best for Jaffur and Jaron over what we think of Dandeer, otherwise we risk a second sundering with Jaron instead of Berra.
...
..
.
But my Murder Bonner!
Fine, can we at least sear her mind, and or, seal her knowledge of sorcery with another sorcerer though? It seems a bad idea to leave her at our back. Her particular brand of insanity is a pain to deal with.
...
..
.
But my Murder Bonner!
Fine, can we at least sear her mind, and or, seal her knowledge of sorcery with another sorcerer though? It seems a bad idea to leave her at our back. Her particular brand of insanity is a pain to deal with.
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You guys are missing my point. Because the way you are treating Ki blocking, it makes fighting with Ki obsolete.
After all, if all you need to do is touch someone with ki block them to stop them from using ki....then you can basically beat everyone from Golden Freezer to Super Saiyan God goku since all they use is Ki as well.
If you acknowledge that is has limits then you acknowledge that it isn't going to fulfill all our fighter restraining needs.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
The eagerness with which some posters are discussing the murder and/or torture of Dandeer is not only a bit sickening, it's rapidly becoming something that saps my enjoyment of this Quest. Can you all maybe take your torture fetishism to PMs or something?
EDIT: Please?
EDIT: Please?
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Frankly if the average saiyan is one bad day away from killing their spouse and attempting to kill their child there would be no saiyans.
Could you cite anyone proposing torturing her?
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Not sealing her mind. It would be hypocritical and have similar results to killing her.
Taking away her ability for sorcery would be ideal. Imprisonment would probably a good way to deal with it as long as her sons and daughter can visit if they want, mostly because she is sick and needs treatment. A masque that doesn't affect her memories but keeps away her ki and magic would be useful. Exile or house arrest once that happens.
It should also be fairly obvious that Jaffur and her can't live in the same place anymore. I don't know if she should be allowed to live with the other two given how sick she is but as far as I can tell she ain't a bad mother for those... she is not a good one either but not criminaly negligent or abusive.
We could see about sealing her powers but not her mind and exile her from saiyan society, forcing her to live as a human. She can play house with Valentine and Jaron but Jaffur and his sister would likely go to Yammar or the Senzu so that they retain their saiyan heritage. Jaffur and the rest of the family would be allowed to visit Jaron and Dandeer not allowed to stop them from it. Though if you are really feeling vindicative, taking Jaron away from her too would crush her on top of the other two. Ironic too since she wanted to keep them human and deprive them of their heritage to play house and as punishment she would be forced to be human, without her children and deprived of access to saiyans. Add a geass so that she can'treveal anything about the exiles and it should be apropriate.
I would also add some community service like I did with Celeran but with her powers sealed I have no idea what.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Arguably, this one.
Pretty indisputably, this one.
There was another debatable example I didn't feel like noting down.
And that's specifically in the last four pages or so, not total historic examples.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I don't care about Dandeer. I just want the situation with her resolved. Basicsally every time we see her she does the exactly wrong or stupid thing.
Well since we are talking about it....people hate Dandeer for her Actus reus, her guilty act.
But what about her Mens Rea, her intentions?
To those that would do something horrible to her, I posit the following:
Suppose that right here and right now, Dandeer was apprehended and brought before us for us to judge and punish her actions according to our whims. Politics don't matter, dad doesn't matter, Jaffur doesn't matter, only us, Dandeer and her sins.
....how would you judge it, and why? What would be a JUST action toward her? Going by what you would judge everyone else by, would she merit a punishment and if so, WHAT punishment?
But what about her Mens Rea, her intentions?
To those that would do something horrible to her, I posit the following:
Suppose that right here and right now, Dandeer was apprehended and brought before us for us to judge and punish her actions according to our whims. Politics don't matter, dad doesn't matter, Jaffur doesn't matter, only us, Dandeer and her sins.
....how would you judge it, and why? What would be a JUST action toward her? Going by what you would judge everyone else by, would she merit a punishment and if so, WHAT punishment?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Agreed.
The definition of 'killing' that you are using to say Dandeer has committed one murder and one attempted murder... Suffice to say, it has many features that make it different from the common connotation of the word 'killing.' Some of these features mean that it becomes improper to say "what Dandeer did to Lord Vegeta is murder, murder is evil, therefore what Dandeer did to Lord Vegeta is evil."
I believe this is an example of the noncentral fallacy in action.
You can make a good case that the Sealing of Jaffur was much worse than the Sealing of Lord Vegeta, even though we normally consider 'attempted murder' to be less bad than successful murder, or at least no more than equally bad.
If you believe that Sealing is a form of torture or attempted murder, then quite a few people are proposing to torture Dandeer.
If you are replying to me, I must point out that I am not part of the "you" who are apparently "treating ki blocking as though it makes fighting with ki obsolete." That is all.
Honestly, I'm not sure how much of her beliefs is actual insanity, versus how much is just possibly-false conclusions she could be talked down from over time if the world weren't hammering on her so damn hard.
There's a significant difference between "wrong" and "insane." The key to that difference is that an insane person won't change their behavior or attitude if the situation changes. Because they can't, because the problem is structural, part of the nature of their mind, not part of how their mind reacts to the external world.
For example, clinical depression is a mental disorder in which a person feels that their life is worthless, that they lack the strength to go on, that routine daily activities are impossibly draining, and so on. A person who is clinically depressed may report misery and frustration. They're sad all the time. They may report that things make them unhappy. But- and this is important- if they are actually depressed, just taking the things that make them unhappy, and 'solving' them, will not make them happy. Fixing their problems does not make the depression go away.
Now, take a person whose life is very difficult for external reasons, but who is not clinically depressed. Say, their job is terrible, or they're in a toxic relationship, or their family is obnoxious to them, or they're in chronic physical pain. They may be very sad. They may express that their life seems worthless, that they can't go on, that routine daily activities are draining, and so forth. They may look a lot like a depressed person- and indeed, living like this for long enough can make a person depressed. But there is a critical difference between someone who is sad because of a mental disorder (depression) and someone who is sad because of external conditions. For the person who is not clinically depressed, but is extremely sad all the time, fixing their problems makes them happy. Or at least makes happiness a reasonable possibility.
...
How does this relate to Dandeer? Well, she is adamant that Sealing away her husband was the right thing to do. Why? Imagine if every battered wife had such a great justification for believing that her husband's abusive side and his loving side were two physically different people. And had the power to cast a magic spell that forcibly transformed them into the loving side so that the abusive side could never come out and hurt her again.
Within a matter of days, there would be few, if any, abusive husbands remaining un-Sealed on the face of the Earth.
Sealing Lord Vegeta wasn't a matter of insanity. Insisting she was right to Seal Lord Vegeta wasn't a matter of insanity. It was a straightforward reaction to external circumstances, that anyone in her situation would have considered and many would have gone through with.
Sealing Jaffur was a different question. The thing is, we know so little about what really happened between them. We don't know how Jaffur really reacted to his father being Sealed. We don't know what really happened to Dandeer, how she came to be so badly injured. We know what she says happened, and if her story is true her motives for trying to Seal Jaffur along with his father are actually... rather sane. Wrong, maybe, but not insane.
If, as nearly all of us believe, Dandeer was lying to Berra about what Jaffur did... well, we know nothing about what happened, very little about what Dandeer actually did and why, and it's hard to say whether there has to be something fundamentally wrong with her in order to get her to do what she did.
...
Moving beyond that, Dandeer has shown callousness towards common Garenhulders, refusal to take the opinions of a child seriously, and inflexibility in the face of others pressuring her to apologize for Sealing her abusive husband. None of those are mental illnesses.
The closest thing to insanity we've seen from Dandeer is her obvious PTSD regarding super-saiyans... and while that may well play a big role in what's going on here, it's not untreatable insanity. Not the kind that forces a person to conclude that someone is an un-manageable threat-machine rather than a human being.
Again, I am not saying Dandeer has done no wrong. She has done at least one VERY bad thing. She has expressed incredible callousness to terrible events. She should feel terrible about what she has said and done.
But that does not mean she is "insane" in the sense of "this person cannot be rationally convinced to stop doing terrible things and stop being a threat."
She would be tried for the following acts, in my court:
1) The Sealing of Lord Vegeta.
2) The Sealing of Jaffur.
3) Any and all abuses committed during her regency, including (if applicable) the idea that she has usurped power unjustly.
As for (1), that was a pretty clearcut case of self-defense. The normal recourses of a battered wife (fighting back, going to the police, simply leaving) do not apply to Dandeer. She had no way of escaping her role as Lady Vegeta, no way of defending herself against her husband, and no higher legal authority to whom she could appeal for protection.
I am not sure what would be appropriate for (3). My impression is that she hasn't been ruling badly, she just doesn't have a lot of talent for ruling and her 'subjects' don't respect her. If her husband and son didn't happen to be the princes of a small country, her actions would not have resulted in her usurping political power. There is little evidence that she acted as she did in order to obtain political power, so I do not judge her to have unusual criminal intent.
Furthermore, the collapse of the Vegetan power structure during this timeframe has arguably been beneficial, because it left Berra and Kakara to set the stage for the Exile response to the alien invasion. It would be somewhat hypocritical of us to blame her for an action we (as quest participants, or as Kakara) have profited from.
I do not think I would punish Dandeer for any of her crimes, except the Sealing of Jaffur.
To ascertain what is the right way to handle that, I would want to talk to Jaffur and try to determine how much psychological harm he has suffered from being Sealed. I would want to know the truth of what happened between Dandeer and Jaffur around the time of the Sealing. Without knowing these things, I don't think I could settle on a proper punishment.
Obviously, Dandeer should be made to un-Seal Jaffur. Obviously, Jaffur should be raised by foster parents (NOT Yammar, Yammar raising saiyan princes is how we got into this mess). Beyond that? Not sure.
Everything but this is an assessment I can live with.
Foster kids are 4-5 times more likely to commit suicide or suffer from mental disorders then normal teens.
9 things to know about kids in foster care. Plus an unforgettable view into their lives. see question number 8.
An already troubled kid like Jaffur might be worst served by having him be raised by someone else then his mother, given that Dandeer isn't actually abusing him.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
@PoptartProdigy : What are the laws regarding mind delve? It occurs to me that every person we add to our conspiracy is another person that could be mind delved. In fact, I am sort of surprised that all oath swearing does not include a mind delve to check if the person means it.
I would expect that to happen if we had it in the real world.
I would expect that to happen if we had it in the real world.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The primary reason that what Dandeer did was even wrong in the first place is because it was an act that gravely harmed her own child. If she's not guilty of child abuse, then in my book, she's not guilty of anything, other than "being unlikable."
Furthermore, it is vanishingly unlikely that Jaffur will want to be raised by Dandeer after having spent four or five years locked up inside his own head and sealed away from the world, entirely because of Dandeer's judgment, possibly including Dandeer lying to the authorities to make it possible, in a form of near-solitary confinement that Dandeer could have ended at any time.
He basically devoted his entire life to obtaining the strength to kill his own abusive father in single combat, as soon as possible. Changing the plan to killing his own abusive mother, instead, would be very easy for him. So unless Jaffur's changed a lot during his years of mental imprisonment, we're going to have to go to considerable lengths to convince him not to kill Dandeer himself. And you suggest that he might be better off with his mother for years to come? I can think of nothing more likely to drive him to insanity, extreme violence, or both.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We might be able to convince him not to kill her. No way we are going to convince him to live with her or or let himself ever fall under her authority.
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Lunaryon
Dual Aurora Wave
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hmmm...
To be completely frank - If she were to be caught right here and now.
I would sit her down and I would talk with her. The point of a just punishment is that it is supposed to lead to a revelation and an repairing of the wrong that the person did.
And she can't do that as she is. She fails to understand why what she did was wrong.
So the first thing I would need is for her to explain her own actions. Then I would explain what I saw, and the differences between the two. Most importantly, I would want her to understand why Jaffur did what he did.
What Dandeer did to her husband was a sick and twisted thing to do. Perhaps not in her own eyes, but in our eyes, and in Jaffur's eyes it was. She can argue self-defense, but was she planning to Seal Jaffur regardless?
Because in my eyes it looks like he was fighting for self-defense. On top of that, I have said on more than one occasion that the Seal enrages me on an existential level due to my own believes about the nature of consciousness and memories, and how they interact to create a person.
At that point I would offer to have her experience what Jaffur did, to go through the memories and experience from his point of view. If she were to accept, I would lighten her sentence - down from ummm... 2 years of house arrest down to a half year of house arrest and a half year of community service.
Regardless, in addition I would ask that her magic be sealed away for 18 months. With the potential for parole if the occasion requires it.
During that time she would be allowed to see her children, but they would not be allowed to sleep under the same roof as her, given that she has been proven to be a danger to them in the past. I am not entirely certain where they would go - Yammar has been shown to be unfit to raise children, given what became of Jaffur's father, and whoever raises the children will likely be forced to interact with Dandeer at least a little (either one or two weekends a month). But on the other side, it really can't be any member of the Vegetan clans, as that would allow a clan to gain an in with the Royal family and possibly destabalize the entire clan. Likewise, it cant be a Gokun because that would cause all sorts of other problems.
At the moment Raditz seems to be the best option, given that they went rogue in order to stay loyal to Jaffur instead of Dandeer.
Other than that, I would want her to try and justify herself to Jaffur.
Oh, and once she gets her magic back, she will have to go through a sort of magical parole because she did attack a Lord and a Scion.
But in the end, what I actually want is a Dandeer who understands what she did, and why it was wrong.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Can magic be sealed?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Take a, "Study magic," option to find out.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
So what are the laws regarding Mind Delve? Or do we not know that yet?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@PoptartProdigy As a heads up, you have both my Chiaotzu Style and the Speechcraft omake in the fanart section of the Lore Screen, instead of Noncanon Omakes.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Better living through ki
Foreword
Ki is the energy of life. It should thus come as no surprise that it can be used to improve one's quality of life, but many fail to initially grasp in just how many ways it can do so. Within this blog are a collection of techniques that can be used to improve quality of life by applying ki to every conceivable mundane facet of daily life. Some uses of ki take more time or effort to learn than others, but all should in the long run save a significant amount of time, energy, and money that would otherwise be wasted.Foreword
Table of contents
Chapter 1: Hygiene; body maintenance made quick and easy
We spend an hour everyday on our hygiene, with some spending even more. Wouldn't it have been easier if you could get rid of that time? Make everything quick and easy? Like every time, this is where ki comes in. In this chapter, we will be describing many minor tricks using ki that can substitute for all of those expensive products while helping you practise your ki manipulation at the same time!
►Cleaning Teeth
►Removing body odor
►Washing without water or even moving
Chapter 2: Telepathy and talking fast
An evolution of Ki Control, this is the art of using ki to project your thoughts into somebody's mind. Telepathy is a way to communicate with others using one's mind.
►Getting started
►Reducing fraying
►Talking as fast as you think
Chapter 3: Flying - not just for outdoors!
Flying is one of the most commonly used techniques in ki, allowing its users to perform techniques that would normally be very impractical or downright impossible without it.
►Everyday movements that can be done more smoothly using ki
►Normally Impossible yet useful movements that can be done using ki
Chapter 4: Telekinesis and other advanced forms of laziness
Telekinesis also called Psychokinesis is a technique that allows the user to manipulate objects and other people with the power of one's mind. Projecting your ki out of your body is basic stuff; when you get down to it, that's an aura. Doing it without blowing things up is basically flight. Doing it and then wrapping your ki around something in order to move it around is something entirely different. Also useful.
►Pulling object to you
►More complex hands free activities
Chapter 5: Light
Do not fear the dark for your light comes from within and will always be with you.
►Light from hands
►Steady ball lights
►Diffuse sourceless light
Chapter 6: Heating
No longer do you need shelter to protect from the elements. With these tips you can protect yourself from the elements and show the supremacy of humans over nature.
►Self Body temperature regulation
►Heating an area
►Cooking the special ingredient comes from within
►Warming a person Warning do not attempt unless you have passed these Ki proficiency tests.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly, I suspect that knowing what really happened will massively alter the way we see events
[Raises hand]
Uh... I don't think of it that way.
Either it was killing Lord Vegeta and creating a new Masqued persona in his place, or it wasn't killing him and merely imposed a change on him. If it wasn't killing him, it was frankly more merciful than what Lord Vegeta deserved for repeatedly crippling and beating his son and wife, to the extent of forcing a miscarriage on Dandeer.
If it was killing him, well... Would we consider it "sick and twisted" if Dandeer had simply vaporized Lord Vegeta's head? Given what she's been through? I wouldn't. In a better world she'd have other options, but she didn't. The only person on Garenhuld capable of stopping her husband from beating her had long since resigned himself to doing nothing about the abuse, for fear of triggering a civil war.
Kakara doesn't seem to be too torn up about what happened to Lord Vegeta, either. He has not, on the whole, been missed.
Jaffur seems to have objected to his father being Sealed because he wanted to kill his father himself. We get part of his internal post-Sealing thought process in his... angrier and less lucid... moments, and it reads like, with bolding and separation into individual words for emphasis:
" This is, roughly, what it's like to be Jaffur Vegeta right now.
screamingragingcryingfrothingatthemouthillkillyouillkillthemillkillallofthemmotherwhy father why were you so weak you were mine to kill mine mine mine and now youre sealed too illfindawayoutandburnyoualltoashyouredeaddeadDEAD"
screamingragingcryingfrothingatthemouthillkillyouillkillthemillkillallofthemmotherwhy father why were you so weak you were mine to kill mine mine mine and now youre sealed too illfindawayoutandburnyoualltoashyouredeaddeadDEAD"
If I had to GUESS what happened, I'd guess that Jaffur went berserk, possibly attacking Dandeer for Sealing his "mine-to-kill" father away, possibly attacking Valentine (the Sealed Lord Vegeta). Dandeer misunderstood why Jaffur was reacting the way he did and acquired one of her "incapable of imagining herself mistaken when disagreeing with a child" convictions- namely, that Jaffur was simply a vicious lunatic brute, irredeemable and unsavable. Whether Jaffur actually attacked Dandeer or not is uncertain and irrelevant- anything that left Dandeer certain that her son was cursed with the same rage that had left her the victim of a decade of brutal domestic abuse could have been enough to touch it off.
Obviously this is a guess- but with no more information than we have available, it's as plausible an explanation as any.
I suspect that Dandeer wasn't planning to Seal Jaffur away until AFTER something happened involving the Sealing of his father. If only because she could probably have gotten away with Sealing Jaffur first rather easily, and then moving on to her husband. But after... whatever happened, happened, Dandeer believed she had to Seal Jaffur, and conversely, Jaffur had every reason to defend himself against the attempts to Seal him.
I totally understand and respect that viewpoint. At the same time, there are other, self-consistent perspectives from which the Seal does not do what you think it does. Dandeer, it is fairly clear, adheres to one of those viewpoints.
If you want to punish her for Sealing being inherently wrong, you had first better convince her your views on memories and consciousness are correct- because otherwise you're just punishing her for nothing, in her own frame of reference.
The actual parameters of the punishment strike me as reasonable. The main question on my mind is, would you settle for a Dandeer who thinks Sealing Lord Vegeta was right, or at least acceptable, but Sealing Jaffur was wrong?
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
Pity this is pretty off base
it'd be a much better world if this was it
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
remoulding and changing someone's mind to fit your views is easy to see as a bigger violation than murder for the very same reason that some people would prefer to die than be enslaved.
as a secondary point making a fully developed adult human mind that loves you above all else is in and of itself morally dubious no matter what you made it from.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
With respect, saying even that much constitutes a spoiler if you're not japesing us, and if you are, there's no way for us to tell, so...