- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
So basically, Berra is to righteous up-close-and-personal smackdowns of truly horrible people what Kakara is to talky persuasion? 
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Maaaybe? On the other hand, I still think that if we tried it he'd Solar Flare our asses and try to pick off the clones one by one. Perfect Multiform might make this more difficult... on the other hand, I have a sneaking suspicion Perfect Multiform will take more than a year to research; by the time we develop it, the need may have become moot.
Also, it would be really bad if this ended in a fight between Kakara and Berra.
Also, it would be really bad if this ended in a fight between Kakara and Berra.
- Location
- United States
i mean, if we were really worried about it, we could just wear some sunglasses. and i dont see how the Flare stops our Ki Sense.
and im pretty sure that no one knows Solar Flare x100
and im pretty sure that no one knows Solar Flare x100
i am really hoping that our social skills will carry the day there.
- Location
- Australia
We should invent that.
- Location
- United Kingdom
Buu?Is it candy? I hope it's candy.
Depends. Berra's Elite Dueling talent aids him in breaking apart enemies, raising his effective skill level with Crowd Fighting from Competent to Exceptional. We're better then him at Flight, but he's better then us at Instant Transmission, our Team Fighting is only at Talented, and most importantly, he's a Master of a style.
If we also raised Team Fighting and Instant Transmission to Exceptional and got to at least competent in Tien style? We might, in theory, be his equal with Perfect Multiform.
If we Mastered Tien style? We probably his equal.
Fairly sure it'd either an Elite or Legendary variant.
On a subject of comparing roll bonuses, I decided to try and reverse-engineer the fight with Meerak. The modifiers as I can figure them out?
Before Transformation
Kakara: +70-80
Meerak: +80-90
After Transformation
Kakara: -30-20 (yes, it is indeed negative)
Meerak: +200-220
If Meerak had stuck around to fight Berra (worst case)
Berra: +250-270
Meerak: +160-170
If Meerak had stuck around to fight Berra (best case)
Berra: +350-370
Meerak: +60-70
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...Could you expand on your reasoning for the 'after transformation' phase?
- Location
- United States
perfect multiform and actually learning a style comes first IMO.
- Location
- Australia
It's not as powerful as a Final Flash so no.
ye
Gladly. See, when Poptart was explaining what had happened, he clarified that before transforming, his skills equalled our own. Afterwards, his skills were higher, which indicates he had Elite+, and that he wasn't particularly proficient at his low power state, to the point of suffering skill penalties. His style also got a boost, so I'm assuming it was at Competent at his low power state, and Master while at full power.
Kakara was also suffering a -50 circumstance penalty for holding back as much as possible, while the Scout had a style that, as a unique feature to it, gained increased benefit from circumstances, so I translated that into the Scout gaining +50 circumstance bonus.
Finally, we know that a 10% difference in PL equals a +30 bonus to the stronger fighter, and this bonus is linear in nature. Before hand, we were 1/3rd as powerful, so we got +100. After Meerak transformed, he was 50% stronger then us, so at the same time as when we lost the +100, he gained +150.
So before hand, we had +20-30 from skills, +100 from PL and -50 from circumstances, while Meerak had +20-30 from skills, +10 from style and +50 from circumstances.
Afterwards, we had +20-30 from skills and -50 from circumstances, while Meerak had +20-40 from skills, +30 from style, +150 from PL and +50 from circumstances.
The sheer difference surprised me when I added it up, I must admit.
What does the Final Flash have anything to do with the Solar Flare technique and/or any of it's hypothetical Elite/Legendary variants?
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- Location
- Australia
I forgot. I have no argument now.
- Location
- United States
and speaking of styles, i think that i (eventually) want to split focus between the Tienshinhan style and the Krillin style, and make a blended style based off of them. Something unique to Kakara. Perhaps something like this:
Kakara Style: A balanced style with strong offense and defense that is effective against individuals and small groups. This style heavily abuses the coordination of a small group of fighters (preferably all the same person via the Multi-Form Technique), and extreme battlefield awareness and mobility to keep their opponent(s) on the back foot for the entire engagement and set up finishing blows, while being able to counter dangerous situations with the use of Solar Flare and Instant Transmission. This style is easily countered by numbers though, as prediction and evasion gets exponentially more difficult, and it intentionally limits the ki techniques it uses in order to make coordination between the practitioners easier. Involved techniques Ki Sense, Ki Control, Multi-form, Instant Transmission, Hand-to-Hand (team fighting), Solar Flare, and Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand (crowd fighting), non-signature Ki Projection
and while i envision it working alright in a 1v1 duel without Perfect Multi-Form or fellow practitioners on our side, i think it would lose between 1/3 and 1/2 of its style bonus. therefore, until we learn Perfect Multi-form, I recommend not working on this, and work on either the Goku style (probably this one. get papa to teach us) or Jaffur's style until then.
i do think that it would be valuable to create at some point in the future even if PMF does not exist though, assuming we plan to train others in it. it would be a powerful force multiplier for a small squad.
edit: i spent way too long on that.
Kakara Style: A balanced style with strong offense and defense that is effective against individuals and small groups. This style heavily abuses the coordination of a small group of fighters (preferably all the same person via the Multi-Form Technique), and extreme battlefield awareness and mobility to keep their opponent(s) on the back foot for the entire engagement and set up finishing blows, while being able to counter dangerous situations with the use of Solar Flare and Instant Transmission. This style is easily countered by numbers though, as prediction and evasion gets exponentially more difficult, and it intentionally limits the ki techniques it uses in order to make coordination between the practitioners easier. Involved techniques Ki Sense, Ki Control, Multi-form, Instant Transmission, Hand-to-Hand (team fighting), Solar Flare, and Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand (crowd fighting), non-signature Ki Projection
and while i envision it working alright in a 1v1 duel without Perfect Multi-Form or fellow practitioners on our side, i think it would lose between 1/3 and 1/2 of its style bonus. therefore, until we learn Perfect Multi-form, I recommend not working on this, and work on either the Goku style (probably this one. get papa to teach us) or Jaffur's style until then.
i do think that it would be valuable to create at some point in the future even if PMF does not exist though, assuming we plan to train others in it. it would be a powerful force multiplier for a small squad.
edit: i spent way too long on that.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm... a bit surprised if his transformation made him that much more skillful. Why do you believe that to be the case?
I'm not disagreeing, but how do we know, one, that the power level differences increase that rapidly, and two, that the bonus is linear?
I can't shake the feeling that this may be evidence that you are overestimating the size of the difference. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying my gut claims you're wrong, if only because the mechanics you describe really, really stack the deck in favor of even a comparatively slight advantage in power level (e.g. 120,000 to 100,000).
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
According to the update, we rolled 187 in communication. So a +90 at least.
- Location
- United States
i mean, that does make sense.
using wrestling as an example, a 240 pound dude has a major advantage over a 200 pound dude.
I know and claim all this because Poptart has previously mentioned it all:
Mind, the training modifiers from above have been eliminated, but the rest of it remains as stated:
It gets pretty ridiculous. Combat rolls are on a d100, and power levels at 10% separation add +30. 20% adds +60 or more. Then you add relevant skills, then styles, then circumstantial modifiers. And that covers the first exchange of combat; "the two fighters charge at each other for a strike," for example. Then you proceed to the next exchange; "fighter A disengages to fire blasts, fighter B tries to stay in range." And then another, and another, and another, until things resolve one way or another. There's actually a ludicrous amount of math behind each fight, and it's very boring to look at. There's a reason it's usually hidden.
In this case, the scout tended to trail you slightly on rolls, tie you on skills, nail you on styles (always, obviously), and then absolutely hammer you on the circumstantial modifiers, especially on the crucial roles where he literally just had to lose slowly enough to still remain able to scream for help. But overall, even piling all of that on still had him losing on schedule, even without the cookies. You'd just have broken an arm and had his team inbound in the process. With the cookies, you didn't even suffer that before the transformation check (on that one, you tied on rolls (or near enough -- within five points of each other), got steamrolled on skills, ate shit on styles, and ate -50 for circumstances. He's practiced that transformation quite a bit).
If there was any mistakes on my part, it was in the circumstance modifiers and maybe with Style. However, even if I eliminate them, after the transformation it was still -30/-20 vs +130/+150. Aka, unwinnable.
Incidentally, Vegeta had just under a 10% PL difference with Dodoria, and easily crushed them, while against Zarbon, was winning with a bit over a 4% difference, but lost when Zarbon transformed, which boosted him to 30,000+, or 125% of Vegeta's PL at the time. Cue Vegeta being crushed.
So it does fit.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Having just watched a big pile of Dragonball Z Abridged, I recognize what you say, although I will also note that the man himself commented...
"Power levels are bullshit!" A complaint justified, going by some of the narrative content.
"Power levels are bullshit!" A complaint justified, going by some of the narrative content.
That reminds me, I was imagining earlier about what would happen if Kakara and Berra did come to blows over the unsealing and Kakara won, which resulted in me remembering this:
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
+90 in total from skills and traits, on this past roll.
Ah. What I was referring to were the outcomes of his rolls. Previous to his transformation, your skill rolls and his were roughly tied, and afterwards his luck turned a bit in his favor.
Hmm... Would it be okay to ask for a break down on how much everything granted?
Not sure if this just me being tired, but I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said, or matches up with what you said? I mean, we know that before the transformation, we on average something likely 63, and he got 53, and afterwards, our results were about equal, within 5 of each other. I used that to figure everything else out?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Small bonuses are a +10, moderate a +20.Hmm... Would it be okay to ask for a break down on how much everything granted?
Simon's post was expressing confusion about how the scout could have gotten more skillful; i.e., he believed that you were referring to Meerak gaining skill ranks upon transforming. I just quoted your post to clarify because it was last in the chain and both you and Simon read every post in the thread anyway.
*scratches head* Then how did we get 90? 20+10*4+20*2=100. Or was Kakara suffering a -10 malus?
Except you kinda say he does, right here:
Now, since you've clarified, I assume you meant "slightly behind you on the rolls, made up the gap with his superior skills" and "equalled you on the rolls, the pulled ahead with superior skill" instead?
In which case, revising slightly, counting only PL, skills and style, here's my estimates:
Before Transformation
Kakara: +110-130 (+100 from PL, +10-30 from skills)
Meerak: +20-70 (+10-40 from skills, anywhere from +10 to +30 from style)
After Transformation
Kakara: +10-30(+10-30 from skills)
Meerak: +170-220(+150 from PL, +10-40 from skills, anywhere from +10 to +30 from style)
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go to bed, the text is swimming.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
One of the traits says, "minor if x, moderate if y," and only gives one or the other.*scratches head* Then how did we get 90? 20+10*4+20*2=100. Or was Kakara suffering a -10 malus?
Except you kinda say he does, right here:
Now, since you've clarified, I assume you meant "slightly behind you on the rolls, made up the gap with his superior skills" and "equalled you on the rolls, the pulled ahead with superior skill" instead?
In which case, revising slightly, counting only PL, skills and style, here's my estimates:
Before Transformation
Kakara: +110-130 (+100 from PL, +10-30 from skills)
Meerak: +20-70 (+10-40 from skills, anywhere from +10 to +30 from style)
After Transformation
Kakara: +10-30(+10-30 from skills)
Meerak: +170-220(+150 from PL, +10-40 from skills, anywhere from +10 to +30 from style)
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go to bed, the text is swimming.
Yeah, what I'm saying in the quoted text is very strictly, "the outcomes of the skill rolls, modifiers and rolls included, were equal prior to transformation, and drastically in his favor afterwards."
Actually, both traits that grant moderate have that:
I'm just wondering which moderate bonus we didn't qualify for.