Thing is, these guys always have some secret silly weakness that they can't really overcome. Achilles being a prime example. Lance through the heart? He laughs while he kills you. Cut off his head? He puts it back on, then laughs and kills you. Arrow to the heel? Falls. Over. Dead. Seriously, WTF?
people always talk about Achilles with complete obliviousness to the actual Illiad. Don't know a website to cite for the exact text, but Achilles is, in fact, shot with... a deadly poison coated arrow. The heel was a weak point in that it wasn't invincible, he died because shockingly, deadly poisons kill you.
I hope that, when everything goes terribly wrong, Kakara legitimately utters the Holy Phrase, "Crapbaskets."
FWIW, I'm sorry for not putting conditionals on my write-in.
I'm not sorry for the thought behind my write-in. I maintain that it seemed like the best balance of priorities, nonviolence, secrecy, and strategy. I may be wrong, though.
FWIW, I'm sorry for not putting conditionals on my write-in.
I'm not sorry for the thought behind my write-in. I maintain that it seemed like the best balance of priorities, nonviolence, secrecy, and strategy. I may be wrong, though.
Like I said when I described my vision of Pacifism several pages back, I don't think Kakara would ever be in the 'total nonviolence' camp. Culturally, there's no way for it to happen and historically she's spent significant amounts of time preparing herself to become more powerful. She's also seen firsthand that there are many things that are worth fighting for.
So it balanced her desire for peace versus the requirement for action.
Like I said when I described my vision of Pacifism several pages back, I don't think Kakara would ever be in the 'total nonviolence' camp. Culturally, there's no way for it to happen and historically she's spent significant amounts of time preparing herself to become more powerful. She's also seen firsthand that there are many things that are worth fighting for.
So it balanced her desire for peace versus the requirement for action.
Well, for that one dbz fic I wanted to write one of the ideas was for Frieza to achieve his wish for immortality and then get curbstomped by piccolo fused by Kami. In the initial draft, they would have cut his head (him not regenerating since it wouldn't kill him anyways) and then straped it to a ki absorbtion machine from Gero's technology as a renewable source of energy for a city.
Years later, aliens would go to earth tosee if they included in the new galaxy government and discover Frieza's fate via spies.
I mean, it is ridiculous enough to fit DB but I thought it was a bit cruel even for him so it was scrapped.
Like I said when I described my vision of Pacifism several pages back, I don't think Kakara would ever be in the 'total nonviolence' camp. Culturally, there's no way for it to happen and historically she's spent significant amounts of time preparing herself to become more powerful. She's also seen firsthand that there are many things that are worth fighting for.
So it balanced her desire for peace versus the requirement for action.
[X] Plan Crapbaskets
-[X] Communicate this plan to Cabba and Dad.
-[X] Get Cabba to get the alien's back towards us. He has at most 10 seconds to do so.
-[X] Power Up to 200k
-[X] SURPRISE SCOUTER/HEADGEAR SMASH FROM BEHIND! (using IT)
--[X] Try to get any headgear or obvious/probable comm gear off of him entirely
---[X] But don't like, take his head off. That'd probably be unhealthy, even for an alien.
--[X] At this point, Cabba disengages if he can safely do so, but stays near.
-[X] Try to grab him and teleport to the Hall.
--[X] If we can't do that in one try, knock the alien out (if our first blow didn't)
---[X] Then IT to the Hall with the knocked-out scout
--[X]i f we can get him to the Hall, knock him out as soon as practical after arrival.
Please refer to the bottom of this update for a word on what exactly happened here.
Consequence
You take a step forward, and freeze.
What on Earth are you doing?
Hurting people is wrong -- and what you've come up with is going to hurt this person. Yes, they're fighting, but you haven't exhausted all of your options, not yet. You can still talk, you can still negotiate, you can still fix this. This doesn't have to go wrong. People are reasonable. They don't have to fight. You proved that at the Council; you can do it again now! You-
The scout smashes Cabba into the ground, no longer playing along, and you close your eyes. I'm going to smash its gear and IT it to the Hall, you send to Dad and Cabba. Cabba, keep its back to me.
Yes, Scion- agh...
Cabba rolls aside as the alien tries to finish him and starts madly dancing to evade the incoming fire. He stands in a cage of ki blasts. With every second they come closer. He comes within a heartbeat of death more than once.
But before that happens, you transmit in and kick the scout in the side of the head, smashing his scouter as you power up to 200,000. In the distance, Maya's presence halts in sudden shock.
The alien snarls, and in the half-second you need to readjust to your new position well enough to transmit again, it flips with the momentum of your strike and re-orients mid-spin to face you. It fires off a ki blast that skims perilously close to you, you dodge, and-
You grimace. Combat is joined.
Trait Gained: Cognitive Dissonance.
No matter that you hate the idea, you're good at this. You've always prepared for the day that your strength was needed, even if you were willing-
You shake your head, correcting yourself. Even if you thought you were willing to do whatever it took to avoid violence unless it was completely necessary, you've always prepared for the day that you would be needed to protect your people. And you need to bring all of that to bear right now; you need to fight distracted, and transmit this invader to the Hall before it can escape or Maya can arrive. You lunge forward and snap out of the way of one of the alien's strikes. You hand lands on its shoulder, your fingers come to your fore-
BANG
You choke, gasping for breath as a titanic blow lands on your ribcage and sends you spiraling back. You manage to recover, though, and punt the scout away as it zooms in to take advantage of your momentary incapacitation.
"How did a child get this strong?!" it exclaims, scowling at you. "You must be twice as strong as that so-called 'warrior.'"
You don't reply. You've already made your choice; the time for discussion has passed.
You lunge forward again, aiming for the creature's face. It spins out of the way, and snaps a strike into the back of your skull that makes you see stars. You snap down and away, blinking blearily.
The alien's face twists; if you didn't know better, you'd guess in disdain. "You're no fighter." It lunges forward, trying to engage you in hand-to-hand. You fire off a blast to ward it off, but it does something you don't follow and-
WHAM
You choke as it punches you in the stomach and hop backwards, getting your wind back. You swiftly regain your footing as it presses forward, trying to capitalize on the strike.
"You're just a powerful child," it says, falling back before your superior strength. Listening to its voice, you tentatively decide to characterize it as male. The scout hops back, glaring down at Cabba. "This is how you escape, oh so-called 'warrior?' You send your young to fight me?" Its eyebrows lower in a scowl. "Your cowardice sickens me."
Cabba's eyes widen in rage.
Don't react! you send to him. Stay out of this! Stay in range, but keep back unless I say otherwise!
He grits his teeth, but obeys. The scout snorts, turning back towards you. "You can't win this fight, child," it says. "Turn away. You don't need to stand in for your elders when they fail. Just go home. You don't need to fight today."
But your choice was already made. You glare back at the alien and lunge forward, back to the attack. If he can keep you from transmitting, you'll just have to knock him out first.
You press the alien backwards in earnest now, and the shockwaves from your fight ring out across the landscape. Every punch levels a hundred feet of trees. Each errant blast kicks up an explosion that vaporizes a mile of plant and animal life. You stand at the center of it, slowly pushing the alien back. You sense it trying to do something with its ki -- calling for help, maybe. No matter. You press harder, and keep it from doing so by forcing its attention onto you.
But it's not as easy as it should be. You are coming to realize what it means to face a truly practiced fighter; this feels like Jaffur all over again. No matter what you try, the alien is just better than you -- better at controlling the fight. You think you're the superior hand-to-hand fighter; so it simply doesn't tend to let you close to hand-to-hand. You're the more powerful; so it puts itself in a good position to avoid having to take hits. This, you are coming to understand, is what it means to face a fighter learned in a style.
Despite your years of training, you realize only now how much of an amateur you are. Despite all of your strength, you can't keep in contact with the alien long enough to knock it out.
But ultimately, you are stronger; overwhelmingly so. This scout is fighting masterfully, but you are fast enough to cover your mistakes and his successes. You stay ahead of his ripostes and wear him down bit by bit. Eventually, he'll be weak enough that he won't be able to continue evading. At this intensity, he'll be exhausted in just enough time that you can knock him out and extract him before Maya arrives. You're still winning, if slowly.
And then a sudden, crushing impact sends you spinning to the forest floor.
You wheeze for breath, trying to analyze what just happened. You were lunging him to wind him before slamming your knee into his face, but he twisted around your strike in a move that made your eyes hurt trying to follow it. He nearly broke one of your ribs in the strike he launched off of that.
But you're still ready to go. You climb up, gasping, and look at your opponent.
He stares down at you. "I don't want to hurt you, child. But you're leaving me little choice." It glances off in the distance. "That other signature I recorded before you smashed my scouter will be here soon. I can't keep fighting like this." The reptile looks you in the eye. You start; its eyes have shifted from the black beads they were before. They now glow bright red. "This fight is done."
BANG
There is no windup. No screaming. Just a moment of tensing, and the alien is gone is a surge of glowing red ki. And when it clears, you gasp in horror.
The scout has transformed.
Spikes rise from his shoulders, and he's doubled his mass by bulk. His armor is shattered by the sudden expansion. Most terrifyingly of all, all of the alien's growth is proportional; he hasn't bulked up, he's simply expanded to twice his former size. You don't think this is going to make him any slower.
And his power level is sitting just short of three hundred thousand.
His eyes narrow.
tsew
WHAM
You reel backwards at the strike and frantically look around for where he-
BANG
tsew
Okay, he's definitely faster. How do you get out of-
tsew
SLAM
You land back-first in the dirt, gasping.
The alien hovers above you, wreathed in his aura. He turns to look over his shoulder. You follow his gaze.
Maya rockets into the clearing, surrounded by her aura. She hesitates for the briefest of moments, confusion and horror painting her expression. Then she sees you.
"KAREN!" With a flare of ki, your friend charges the scout head-on, hopelessly outmatched and with restraint thrown to the wind.
Dad... you send. ...I lost.
For the first time, I would characterize this as a situation that this hivemind of ours fairly lost via a suboptimal vote as opposed to, "forced into fighting a FPSSJ in hand-to-hand." I'll cover the whys below. First:
A FRIEND OF YOURS IS IN DANGER. "HOT-BLOODED" HAS ACTIVATED. VOTE WEIGHTING IN EFFECT.
[ ] Call for help (write-in who). Unnecessary; handled as part of previous vote.
[ ] 2.0x Get up and fight. Maya can't win this on her own. She needs your help.
-[ ] At your current power level.
-[ ] At 500,000.
-[ ] 2.5x At your Masqued maximum.
[ ] Flee the field with Cabba and Maya in tow. Know when to fold in a fight.
How will you be fighting?
[ ] Continue to try to isolate the scout at the Training Hall. With two targets to watch he should slip up eventually.
[ ] Just take him down.
[ ] Not. We wrote in something not involving fighting for the other vote.
THESE VOTES ARE NOW CLOSED.
Write-ins remain welcome.
Now, what we're all wondering: what just happened?
The core problem with this vote is that, for the first time, you all have smacked into the divide between Kakara and yourselves. Bluntly stated, Kakara isn't a simple thread mouthpiece, or I wouldn't have traits. She has her own opinions and thoughts. The "rules" for how Kakara acts are found in the Traits section of her character sheet, and the "exceptions," when applicable, may be found in other places on the sheet; if something you find contradicts a trait, then it's one of those exceptions. Pacifism vs. your relationship with Dandeer Vegeta is the most notable one. The short version of what went wrong today is that the vote broke a very important "rule" without benefiting from any "exception" at all -- namely, that Kakara does not share your nuanced interpretations of the necessity of violence vs. the virtues of non-violence, as I've said (many times) before. And what happens when somebody acts against a deeply-held belief of theirs without a personally-acceptable reason?
That's the short version. But I like words.
Many members of the thread argued against the non-violent write-in vote. Some argued that its vector for diplomacy -- which did, to be fair, involve some blunt intimidation -- couldn't truly count as pacifism due to the silent threat of force backing it. This was incorrect, but I understood how and why they arrived at that argument. Some people argued that the time for talking had passed; the enemy had engaged, and stopping to chat only endangered your people further. They argued that a truly rational, responsible actor could not ethically halt violence in order to engage in discourse with an uncertain result. There were many arguments. Some rational, some not. Some well-constructed, some relying on unfounded assumptions. Some people argued that this was a (at least marginally) non-violent course of action.
No. That's not how it works. Violence is violence is violence; what matters is if it's needful. We're all mature people. We can accept that uncomfortable truth.
Overall, however, the general reasons for the thread's rejection of non-violent solutions were nuanced, serious, well-articulated, and intelligent arguments for the benefits of swift action, and I applaud their construction even while admitting that I do not find them personally convincing, being privy to all of the information.
They are not how Kakara approaches the problem of violence. The Pacifist Trait is very clear: "Where once you avoided [fighting and violence] out of simple distaste, you now do so out of moral obligation. They aren't unpleasant, they're wrong." I have also gone on-record in the thread as saying that this does not preclude Kakara making violent responses to situations. As ever, the way the thread votes is the way Kakara acts, for one thing. Another example is that traits can occasionally contradict each other. This actively occurring isn't safe, but it's IC for Kakara should it ever arise. But crucially, I've explicitly stated that Kakara may use violence as a last resort without being out of character. I have explicitly characterized the development of traits as the progressive development of gradually-more-nuanced points of view -- and I have specifically called out Gohan-esque, "It is not a sin to fight for the right cause," points of view, over and over again, to some of the same individuals who still based their arguments in this vote on those points of view, as beyond Kakara's ability to reason at this time. This is not how Kakara thinks, and I have made that abundantly apparent.
I know I seem frustrated. I am. I have been anything but evasive on this point. That Kakara doesn't share your points of view yet should not come as a shock given my explicit statements to the contrary. This is why I engage with the thread as much as I do, and...it didn't really seem to stop this from happening.
Kakara's traits are her personality. The thread has the power to effect change on her personality, but changing one's mind is not instant. It is the product of time and experience. You don't lose a trait the instant you act against it. Depending on how you do that, you might gain consequences instead.
Now, as to what your new trait means: Pacifist is a foundational trait. That means it is uniquely significant to Kakara's character in a way that other traits are not. This is one of those things that define her core as a person. In fact, this is a trait you have deliberately developed; it is not only uniquely significant to Kakara, it is a dimension of her personal philosophy that she has invested significant time and mental effort into developing. Contravening that was never going to be pretty; not unless you took the time to lay out the groundwork on Kakara changing her mind, which you haven't had the opportunity to do in earnest. Consider: the only other NPC you know to have serious change upon foundational traits is your father. Does he appear uniquely well-adjusted to you when it comes to the traits in question? I would hope not. He's not an inescapable prophecy of what happens if you go against foundational traits, but he's an example of what happens if you do so in a way that is drastically out of previously-established character. In this case, you have taken a step along his road.
Trait Gained: Cognitive Dissonance. You believe that violence is wrong, no matter what. Sometimes people won't let you act that way, but you know that you should never try to hurt another person unless it's your absolute last resort. When the scouts came to Garenhuld, you had the opportunity to put those beliefs into practice. It was your moment. And when it came down to it...you just couldn't follow through. Effects: lose all effects of "Pacifist" and "Convictions," effective immediately from receipt of this trait. Gain a flat -10 to Willpower. The QM will occasionally force Willpower checks on matters relating to fighting or violence until this mismatch in your beliefs and your actions is resolved, in one direction or another.
In short: yes, you messed up. You know better now. I know you all will rise to the challenge and learn from this.
And if I see one damn comment that looks even remotely like an "I told you so," I'm not going to play nice this time and give my usual three requests for de-escalation. Some of you did, in fact, say so, yes, but pointing that out is not remotely productive or constructive. I want you to sit on that feeling, and realize that the people you'd address it to are already well aware that you did, in fact, say so. We had our first moderator visit thanks to the last update's discussion. I am in no mood to deal with behavior courting a second.
The text of your new trait is the boldtext paragraph in the spoiler box above.
Now, as to why you failed your objectives: you're currently fighting an experienced and excellent fighter, despite his low power level, and you straight-up blew your check to stop him transforming. Cookies weren't enough to stop it. Even before then, he didn't need to fight to win; he just needed to avoid being knocked unconscious outright, and disrupt what attempts at teleportation you made. Once Kakara started wearing him down, I had him transform in response. He then had a massive power level advantage. As for why I didn't break for a new vote? The leading competitor for this vote in favor of fighting called for breaking for a new vote if you were unsuccessful, and the winning plan did not. Ordinarily, my assumption is that I break for votes if something extraordinary occurs, but when one of the plans specifically calls for breaking for a vote in the event of failure and the other declines to add such, I take the omission as deliberate.
The primary factor behind the disparity in performance was his Style. His Style, from what you can see, focuses heavily on battlefield control and maintaining open lines of maneuver. He was able to consistently position himself in a way that he gained environmental bonuses to his rolls atop his usual bonuses from skills and his style. Before the cookies you all donated, this led to him winning handily; after, it led to a near-stalemate that he slowly lost -- before he transformed. Afterwards, he straight-up trashed you.
As for the cookie rolls: bluffing the alien via Cabba did require a Deceit check. If you recall, way back in "Prelude," you bluffed Dad into taking a Solar Flare to the face so that you could abscond with Jaffur. This was a Deceit check. Bluffs in combat do require the Deceit skill, and I presumed this to be evident based on that past experience. I'll try to insert reminders in the future, but I can't promise perfection. The failure of this Deceit check caused you to fail on destroying your opponent's scouter, which allowed him to phone out and get backup. Cookies fixed this. You also, independently, failed a roll to keep him from using his ki signature as a distress signal. That's right -- you originally lost so badly that you couldn't even keep his whole attention on the fight. The two less-critical rolls were just bog-standard exchanges in which he broke your arm. With cookies, none of the above happened.
I imagine that it's too much to hope that you all enjoy this update, but I hope you are engaged by it nonetheless. Once again, be civil, refrain from assigning fault or I-told-you-sos (failure analysis is fine, just don't get personal with it), and figure out the brilliant solution I know you all are capable of. I look forward to seeing your discussion, and remind you once again that it's going to be alright. This one defeat is not a final one. You can still pull this out. I have faith that you will.
Have fun trying.
THERE WILL BE A FOUR-HOUR MORATORIUM ON ACTUAL VOTING, TO ALLOW YOU ALL TO DIGEST AND DISCUSS
Basically. I really did enjoy seeing the intellect on display by those arguing for a swift, violent response for the most part. Very sound argumentation. Pleased the philosophy minor in me quite a bit. It just...really...overlooked what I had previously established about how Kakara's mindset interacts with the thread.
Basically. I really did enjoy seeing the intellect on display by those arguing for a swift, violent response for the most part. Very sound argumentation. Pleased the philosophy minor in me quite a bit. It just...really...overlooked what I had previously established about how Kakara's mindset interacts with the thread.
Eh I think its mostly due to the fact that the majority of characters quests simply are thread voices regardless of the QMs intentions hell in my current quest I'm constantly trying to make sure I'm not just writing a blank slate... emphasis on trying.
Exceptions exist like Kakara and Jade Agni from Ignition, but most people are also used to seeing the character do as they want with the fault falling exclusively on the dice, and occasionally a bad plan rather than misunderstanding the fundamental nature of the character they are guiding.
That and well this is Dragon Ball, people kinda look at it and put alien invader and punch to the face together and go "THIS WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING."
Which is true in Dragon Ball normal universe where everything is usually solved via face punching, but this isn't normal DB an oversight that should have been obvious maybe, but this is the first bit of actual fighting the thread has gotten in a while.
Since I figure people will worry about the wrong things I feel I should point that the greatest problem here is that Maya just saw us like this and where us lying to her was already a big issue to blow up whenever she found out(and let's be honest here she will) now anything other than powering up enough to instantly end this fight will be terrible when it inevitably happens so I think we should just bite the bullet and do it. All other issues are secondary and should follow it.
Really really underestimated the absolutely-no-violence part of her Pacifism. I had thought that Kakara was completely on board with beating up the scouts when we were forming the squads to hunt then down, I don't remember seeing any indication that she didn't wish to capture them by force. And she got legit Cognitive Dissonance from fighting the scout of the guys that intend to completely take over the planet?
Aaaand now we have utterly failed the thing that Dad desperately needed us to do, which is hide the alien from Maya. She is outmatched here utterly, and now we need to display our real power in front of her to put this guy down.
Really really underestimated the absolutely-no-violence part of her Pacifism. I had thought that Kakara was completely on board with beating up the scouts when we were forming the squads to hunt then down, I don't remember seeing any indication that she didn't wish to capture them by force. And she got legit Cognitive Dissonance from fighting the scout of the guys that intend to completely take over the planet?
Aaaand now we have utterly failed the thing that Dad desperately needed us to do, which is hide the alien from Maya. She is outmatched here utterly, and now we need to display our real power in front of her to put this guy down.
Nothing particularly good is likely to result in us fucking up that wouldn't have been better if we hadn't fucked up.
The only thing we really got out of this is our first major fuckup being not -that- bad in the scheme of things, so we will be more cautious of this brand of fucking up in the future.
Nothing particularly good is likely to result in us fucking up that wouldn't have been better if we hadn't fucked up.
The only thing we really got out of this is our first major fuckup being not -that- bad in the scheme of things, so we will be more cautious of this brand of fucking up in the future.
End this before Maya gets hurt. She's seen an alien, damage control time - focus should be on doing anything we can to prevent mind-wipe, because mind-wipe is a legitimate concern.
I envision forced actions devoted to combat training.
I'm still confused about why we're hunting the scouts at all. Their orders were to conquer a planet if they found one with no fighters on it. All we had to do was maintain the masquerade until they conveniently identified themselves.
@PoptartProdigy : What is Berra doing and why hasn't he been able to show up here? Is he going to be here very shortly?
@Rest: If so, a solar flare and getting everybody clear so Berra can do his thing unobserved is something to think about. Maya has already seen the aliens, so if Berra needs to power up to put this one down quickly she'll probably assume it was just another alien as long as she isn't seeing it.
If he's not going to show soon and we can convince Cabba to run, well, I suppose there may be worse things than asking Maya to keep the multiform secret, though that's going to depend on whether anybody will be able to feel four masqued Kakaras fighting in close proximity. Perhaps we can have half of them unmasque and just hide their tails to confuse things?
Jumping to 500K is probably the lesser problem. If Berra is running some sort of con regarding Maya he really should have explained it to Kakara.
Yeah, I expected as much. There's probably a matter of seconds before he's on scene.
Solar flare and getting Maya clear so he can cut loose is sounding pretty good right now. Can we teleport Maya into the old training cave to dull any ki readings her poor sense might pick up, or just move her to the opposite side of the planet and tell him he's clear?
emphasis on trying.
