The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
*meanwhile, in the PM's*
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Pronouns
- He/Him
0_0
Alright, didn't see that coming. Kakara didn't allow herself to notice the function of the squads that she was directly fucking involved in organizing.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You could. It would only dull them, mind, but that's certainly an option.
They weren't supposed to engage the scouts. Beyond that, she avoided thinking about an unconscious question. People pull of greater feats of self-deception. But subconsciously, she somewhat felt that upon demonstrating her strength, she could safely order the scouts to leave without a fight.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
- Location
- US
I think there is a fundamental disconnect in how some of us view Pacifism and how Poptart is modeling it in Kakara.
Based on this update, I see Kakara's as a (if I may play loosely with terms) Kantian Pacifist. She will opt to act so that she never enacts violence, even if there are consequences that have a significant likelihood of worse violence later on.
I had, in the past, viewed her as a Utilitarian Pacifist, in which other important moral obligations influence decision trees and the moral impact with greatest weight (number of people and moral significance) would be viewed as best.
Philosophical question? If Kakara had a moment to decide: punch a person hard enough to kill them, in order to save two people, would she? I'm not looking for evasions, of how skills could be leveraged to instantaneously obviate the choice - imagine the only options are 1) kill/save 2, or 2) don't kill/2 people die (by another's hand)
Edit: spelling fixes. Yay phone.
Based on this update, I see Kakara's as a (if I may play loosely with terms) Kantian Pacifist. She will opt to act so that she never enacts violence, even if there are consequences that have a significant likelihood of worse violence later on.
I had, in the past, viewed her as a Utilitarian Pacifist, in which other important moral obligations influence decision trees and the moral impact with greatest weight (number of people and moral significance) would be viewed as best.
Philosophical question? If Kakara had a moment to decide: punch a person hard enough to kill them, in order to save two people, would she? I'm not looking for evasions, of how skills could be leveraged to instantaneously obviate the choice - imagine the only options are 1) kill/save 2, or 2) don't kill/2 people die (by another's hand)
Edit: spelling fixes. Yay phone.
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Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Do you know the difference between a medicine and a lethal poison?
Dosage.
More then a few medicines in use today actually started out bring used as poisons before a beneficial property was discovered by accident. If a nurse wants to kill you in a hospital , often all she would need to do is add another pill or two to your dose.
Most people don't consider these things because they are focused on other things. Even nurses (who need to gave a second person watching and sign off on medication to prevent that extra pill) are more focused on the next observation they need to do, then the reason they were interupted in the middle of showering a patient.
It's easy to focus on step one without considering steps 2-3 at all.
That's why there's so many jokes about it
The only other thing that really comes to mind is taking advantage of Kakara's exceptional ki manipulation and everybody else's distraction to pulse up just long enough to put this guy down without being seen. It should only take a fraction of a fraction of a second if done properly.
If Kakara were actually grappling the alien and powered up enough to conclusively subdue him without hurting him, would Maya be able to pick out her individual power level?
That's a weird image.
If Kakara were actually grappling the alien and powered up enough to conclusively subdue him without hurting him, would Maya be able to pick out her individual power level?
That's a weird image.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
How do you all vote?
Given the thread, I imagine you vote to kill. And in the situation you propose -- where it really is down to only two choices -- then Kakara has already exhausted other options. It would tear her apart, but it would not be out of character for her to do it. Wouldn't be out of character for her to not do it, though. There's a reason not everybody asked that question decides to kill.
It's sort of like asking if a red spotlight right next to a blue spotlight is indistinguishable. It doesn't work that way. The swift power-up option was actually one of the default options last update.
That you, Poptart or what you think we're doing?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Him. He just got some bad news.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Obviously, it's the poor, abused PMs themselves, ignore anyone who says otherwise. *glances up* especially Poptart.
- Location
- Scotland
I very much doubt it, we might be able to salvage it despite the outcome, but i very much doubt we can find good in this.
This was an utter failure on all levels, but as Poptart said we can't be blamed for not seeing it. I also truly believe that the big debate in the near future won't be about how to fix this situation (There are only so many ways we could possibly) but rather what to do with out new Trait.
I imagine I'm not speaking just for me when I say we want to fix this ASAP, the issue I believe will be how we fix, do we backdown from pacifism, try to make it a more flexible perspective, or do we fix it two times stronger with duct tape.
Personally I'm down for trying to fix it up back into what it was, but I can imagine with the confusion over the type of pacifism there will be a lot of dissenting opinions on many different sides.
She's 10/11 years old. Why would you expect her not to think in such absolute terms?
Depends. It's possible that failure will open up new possibilities we wouldn't have otherwise had.
I support the "fix it back up" idea.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I honestly don't remember this coming up at all, but I'll take your word for it.
So Kakara's viewpoint is sufficiently alien to me that I can't profess to understand it. Like, at all. I get that "beyond Kakara's ability to reason at this time" indicates that this isn't necessarily the final form this trait will take, but there's a reason I don't play characters whose belief system I can't model, be it through stupidity or just straight-up believing significantly different things to me. I can understand the selfish sociopath who doesn't care about anything but themselves, and can predict how he'll act. I don't know if I can predict this.
I guess Kakara's viewpoint is "mature" enough that it doesn't seem like a reason that actually affects the character? I mean, that's pretty much the whole point of the Mature trait.
I dunno. I think I'll skip this vote.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
It's not that it's that difficult to model. "Violence is wrong, and only a last resort." There are people who think that way in real life; grown adults and small children alike. Some of them have been immensely successful. It's very different, yes, but it's ultimately a fairly simple model.
- Location
- US
I have a pretty good estimate of how the thread would act, but we have identified that we are not aligned with Kakara all the time.
Also, none of these questions are rhetorical, so thanks for treating it seriously.
By this answer, it is not purely Kantian, which gives me some substantial relief.
The next question is a relatively straightforward extension of the first.
Assume you have no additional information about 2 people, except that one person is going to kill the other in just a moment. Again, you must choose: act and save one (killing the other), or do not act: (saving) the first by letting the second die.
This is a much harder question than the last.
(To frame the reason for this question, there is an extension off Kantian ethics that allows for more important moral values (people living, say) to supercede less important values (violence is bad, say), which allows for your response on the first one)
From the given 'not out of character' on the last question, I expect this will be in favor of inaction.
The utilitarian view here, I believe, is barely in favor of stopping the killing.
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*blinks* Really? It's come up like a dozen times. I though everyone was aware of that fact?
I'm...unsure of what's so difficult to understand about it? Could you walk me through it, I might be able to help?
Mature for her age? Yeah. But this is stuff that teenagers and adults struggle with, let alone someone whose brain hasn't finished developing.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Sufficiently well-balanced that it would come down to the thread's choice. Kakara would feel horrible either way later, and possibly even worse if she later learned that she made the "wrong" choice.
I encourage you not to examine this as an application of any particular ethical system, though. I'm modeling this off of my nine-year-old cousin, not a philosophy text. I doubt she reads Nietzsche and the like in her spare time.
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Oh man, I LOVED this.
The complications and people being FORCED to improvise rather then follow a long held plan.
Hmm-uhm!
Oh, and this way we'll have more weight to the violent option next time.
The complications and people being FORCED to improvise rather then follow a long held plan.
Hmm-uhm!
Oh, and this way we'll have more weight to the violent option next time.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
*whacks*
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm. Assuming a favorable resolution to the fight itself, say by going to 500,000, how would we go about salvaging Dad's plan with Maya to the best of our ability?
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
We nurtured pacifism for too long and it turns out it practically cripples Karkara in any combat that she doesn't think is life or death.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
raises hand I, actually, have that philosophy. Inspired by Undertale, yes, but it is nonetheless the viewpoint I hold (and will vote to the respect of).
- Location
- US
I'll stop with the questions if it's bothering you - I am trying to frame Kakara's ethics in a system I understand.
I realize that, more than likely, the thread would choose... but that doesn't offer insight into what split moment decision Kakara would arrive at via her own moral code. I am highly interested in knowing this, to either reinforce it or provide impetus through votes for change.
And, knowing this might be an uncomfortable question - how would Kakara respond to the above choice, absent the thread's intervention? If the answer is - moment of crisis that results in inaction - then that too is revealing.
I'm not sticking too closely to a given code - I happen to be most versed in two frameworks, and I have some test questions that allow me to differentiate between them, but which are also highly revealing of difficult moral leanings. A small part of me hopes that someone who didn't know about Kantian ethics will take the time to go look it up. And I didn't even major in Philosophy...
The moral decisions revealed through these questions provide a basis to how I will respond to Kakara's dilemma. None of it is in sport of making light of the questions or Kakara's choices.
- Location
- Scotland
No we failed to consider such a viewpoint in a non combat situation creating a combat situation. There is nothing wrong with pacifism in this form, only our use of it.