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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Gore17 said:
Except it also, you know, gives massive bonuses to non-violent solutions. Which is always try to find and use: play to our advantages, not where we are disadvantaged.
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Hesitation kills, karkara trying to reason with an enemy that isn't amenable to reason will give it the initiative, and in many situations can give it information it didn't have before.
 
Carrnage said:
We nurtured pacifism for too long and it turns out it practically cripples Karkara in any combat that she doesn't think is life or death.
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No, it practically cripples Karkara when people attempt to act immediately out of her specialty, and posting as if they were Jaffur.

We are the Social Saiyan, we should always try to be Social first.

Carrnage said:
Hesitation kills, karkara trying to reason with an enemy that isn't amenable to reason will give it the initiative, and in many situations can give it information it didn't have before.
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How do you know if the enemy isn't amenable to reason until you try?
 
Gore17 said:
She's 10/11 years old. Why would you expect her not to think in such absolute terms?
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I remember when I was 10/11. I may have been an atypical kid, but I certainly had the capacity to make decisions that were not driven by absolute values, but rather considered what I knew to be consequences for actions. As Kakara has had substantial political training, I expect her concept of consequences to be at a higher level than mine at that age.

Aranfan said:
Word of Poptart was that Gore17's plan would have worked.
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In light of Poptarts preference for not continuing the topic from pre-moderator intervention, I ask that conversation be guided away from this direction.
 
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Adept_Woodwright said:
Philosophical question? If Kakara had a moment to decide: punch a person hard enough to kill them, in order to save two people, would she? I'm not looking for evasions, of how skills could be leveraged to instantaneously obviate the choice - imagine the only options are 1) kill/save 2, or 2) don't kill/2 people die (by another's hand)

Edit: spelling fixes. Yay phone.
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Just a note, despite you saying you aren't looking for evasions.

Pacifism of Kakaras sort can't really be judged with a lot of our moral standards, simply because she does have access to those skills and evasions. It would be one thing if she tried saying the viewpoint while studying Frieza style or something of equal level of lethality.

But Kakara in many ways can afford those sort of choices because she has options that the rest of us can't.
 
Could we discuss what to do?

I mean, cognitive disonance was because a difference between Kakara's traits and our actions. Because of hot blooded engaging in battle would not make it worse then.

So what are our goals?
Protect Maya. Violence permissible only regarding this.

Power level? Cat is out of the bag. Because we broke the scouter just flaring it won't intimidate the scout but lets not go into the millons.

We want to remove this trait too.

So... suggestions?

@PoptartProdigy perhaps some clarification is needed as to what is considered violence. Apparently intimidation is not. Is it hurting others or fighting? Wouldn't ki blocking fall into it then? Or restraining techniques?
 
Carrnage said:
I'm talking about going forward and how the pacifism trait currently puts people in danger.
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No, the Masquerade is putting people in danger.

If we flared to 100 million, the scout would likely shit itself trying to surrender and this entire situation would be over. It was only following orders designed to protect the Masquerade that caused this situation to occur.

Pacifism merely tells us we should have tried to talk first, stepping in to protect Cabba defensively while trying to talk the scout down before trying to throw a punch. If we merely evaded and blocked, the dissonance likely wouldn't have been anything major, and we could have tried to talk all of them into a peaceful surrender.
 
Sucal said:
Just a note, despite you saying you aren't looking for evasions.

Pacifism of Kakaras sort can't really be judged with a lot of our moral standards, simply because she does have access to those skills and evasions. It would be one thing if she tried saying the viewpoint while studying Frieza style or something of equal level of lethality.

But Kakara in many ways can afford those sort of choices because she has options that the rest of us can't.
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I ask for no evasions precisely because I acknowledge Kakara's many skills. But great skill does not preclude quick decisions with high stakes. These questions are still applicable, despite the myriad ways we might try to avoid being in this situation.

That's kind of the point of this brand of Philosophical question.

These questions are supposed to be uncomfortable. They're supposed to make you think. They are highly revealing of personal motivations.

@Carrnage @Aranfan
Aranfan's post was just a slightly twisted "I told you so," Carrnage's response was just a slight twist on "you all are still all wrong"

I can't see this conversation evolving in a way that doesn't skirt the topic. But - I'm not the police, and I won't comment on it again. Continue as you like.
 
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Adept_Woodwright said:
Carrnage's response was just a slight twist on "you all are still all wrong"
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No it wasn't. if you don't want mod intervention i Suggest you do not strawman or put words in others mouths.

My point is put as simply as i can.
pacifism as it stands is a danger to ourselves and others simply due to being unwilling to intervene when combat is already underway unless we've exhausted all other options, which causes time to pass and combat to progress. I would have zero problems with a "not throwing the first punch, and not escalating" variant
 
Carrnage said:
No it wasn't. if you don't want mod intervention i Suggest you do not strawman or put words in others mouths.

My point is put as simply as i can.
pacifism as it stands is a danger to ourselves and others simply due to being unwilling to intervene when combat is already underway unless we've exhausted all other options, which causes time to pass and combat to progress. I would have zero problems with a "not throwing the first punch, and not escalating" variant
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Personally, I'd rather see it being a danger to herself and others and see her sticking to her guns.
 
Look, let's table that for now. What is the plan?

Go to 500k, grab guy, IT away from people that could be hurt and rant/vent to the guy about throwing ki blasts near cities to calm a bit while demanding he surrenders?

I think both thread and Kakara would be a bit frustrated with the situation so we agree in that. Get going about how we don't like having our hand forced, go "fuck it" with these restrictions and demand he gives up to get this day done with the way it should have from the start. It won't be as effective without the scouter but the frustration is enough to justify the whole unilateral desition thing that bothers me of the losing plan.

Just... lets start grinding that cognosive dissonance away with things we can agree with.

You
 
Well for anyone who feels like pacifism is a problem do keep in mind GM has stated that putting violence onto the table is not an issue for Kakara and there is a lot you can do with that kind of hypocrisy*. For instance if the Fleet was in system we could go to 15 million, teleport, start talks and benefit from the same traits(basically all of them) that would the other plan for the past update since it is essentially the same situation. It does mean we can't follow Berra's plans anymore but considering the situation with Maya that is true anyway so not a concern.
*I think we here are all mature enough to realize that, for example, putting a gun to the head of someone and starting to talk about how things can go from now on can't really be defended with "Oh but I never said I would do it" or similar.

On a unrelated note, given how badly outclassed we were I think we should go for at least double his current power, ideally more because playing around and going along with Berra's plans isn't really what we should be doing at all but especially after this so 600k or perhaps 800k are good targets regardless of what we do afterwards?
 
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[] 2.0x Get up and fight. Maya can't win this on her own. She needs your help.
-[] 2.5x At your Masqued maximum.
[] Not. We wrote in something not involving fighting for the other vote.
-[] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
--[] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargining table.

Other people coming up with things for diplomacy mode would be helpful, because I am not a diplomat.
 
Is this one of those situations where nobody can hear me? Berra will be here in seconds. Get Maya out and he can cut loose because she'll have trouble feeling him from across the planet and just assume he's another alien if she does.

Can we do anything with telepathy here? We can dump multimedia, right? Negotiations might be more convincing if we show the scout a taste of what he's up against.
 
Lailoken said:
Is this one of those situations where nobody can hear me? Berra will be here in seconds. Get Maya out and he can cut loose because she'll have trouble feeling him from across the planet and just assume he's another alien if she does.

Can we do anything with telepathy here? We can dump multimedia, right? Negotiations might be more convincing if we show the scout a taste of what he's up against.
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I'm not sure giving him too much info about berra beforehand is a good idea, but good point about evacing maya.
 
Lailoken said:
Is this one of those situations where nobody can hear me? Berra will be here in seconds. Get Maya out and he can cut loose because she'll have trouble feeling him from across the planet and just assume he's another alien if she does.

Can we do anything with telepathy here? We can dump multimedia, right? Negotiations might be more convincing if we show the scout a taste of what he's up against.
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Is the voting moratorium over? I think it is.

I won't be around tomorrow, so to heck with it.

[X] Lailoken

You have my voting power, use it Lailoken-ly.
 
Meh, the time when extreme violence was useful is kind of over.

But being able to have it as a choice in the future is important.

But no, we can use our peaceful trait to our advantage.

[X] Plan: You WILL have peace. One way...or another.
-[X] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
--[X] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargaining table.
---[X] But if that fails....power up that sheer most extend that the Masque allows and break the scout. Break him so that you don't have to kill him. Start with his limbs and work your way to his spine. Dust his bones and tear his muscles. Any injury can fixed, given enough time and resources, but you cannot allow this to deteriorate any further.

I feel that this would be in character. But then, Lailoken makes a good point and maybe it's time to leave.

Though I am wondering if maybe doing so is going to extend the problem to OTHER realms vis a vis our friends emotional reaction to us teleporting ourselves out of there.
 
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