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Dragon Ball: After the End

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KaintukeeBob said:
As the update did make clear, though, I made serious errors in Plan Crapbaskets. Given that a 20% difference in power levels is said to be dominating, I thought a 33% difference would be overwhelming enough to make up for any style bonuses. I completely forgot or ignored all the stuff Berra talked about in the update. I should have gone for 400k or 500k, which would likely have sufficed.
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Actually, I just throught to double check that:
PoptartProdigy said:
Bommelom said:
How effective are styles? How big an advantage would mastery of a style give in a fight where the fighters were completely equal except one had no style and the other was a master of a style, for example? How large a power and/or skill disadvantage can mastery of a style compensate for?
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A master against a completely unlearned fighter would swiftly come to dominate the terms of the fight and from there win in a substantial majority of cases (>70%). They can give you an good chance of victory so long as they're no further behind their opponent than 10% of their opponent's power level (which is also BOD compliant; getting the math for that right was interesting), and an even chance up to 20% disparity. Again, this is assuming all else is equal, including relative skill. Skills are harder to qualify, but a master could perhaps make up a two-step skill distance in their involved skills specifically. Styles are about learning a particular manner of combat over gaining a flat buff, so it gets fuzzier when dealing with skill differences given how much depends on the circumstance of the engagement.
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A master of a style against someone with the same level of skill without one can make up a 20% difference in PL. A master of a style that suits the situation, with superior skills would be able to compensate further.

And I did mention the fact that the Scout was likely stronger then people were giving them credit for, potentionally had a transformation up their sleeve, and that since Garenhuld was the very last stop/chance they had. So yes, people, the information was there.
BerzerkerNox said:
Okay I just caught up so I'm gonna go ahead and ask Poptart a question so that I can figure out how this works. Exactly how ironclad is the pacifism trait? Because up until now I had thought of it being like Gohan not liking to fight and thinking that there are other ways but being able to fight when the time calls for it. I had thought that scout fighting Cabba was one such instance but then I found out I was wrong. So now I'm wondering how hard you are holding to true pacifism. Because I can't help but feel that if it's that ironclad then Kakara should have been taking penalties for her collaborating with the Raditz family and this little conspiracy she's helping to come to fruition.

Because even with the best outcome to this it should lead to at least a small civil war when the match is finally lit. And if the pacifism trait is as hard as it seems then wouldn't Kakara's actions be ultimately leading to violence? Heck shouldn't all the sparring she does trigger it? Because even though sparring is non-lethal you are trying to hit and hurt the other person. Just not badly. So the trait as you've laid it out just seems a little contradictory to how things have gone so far in the other parts of Kakara's life since she has gotten it.
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This has actually been asked and talked about repeatedly before. In summary:

It's not "true" or "absolute" pacifism. But rather, that violence is wrong, and must be resorted to only as an absolute last resort for a good reason, with killing being double that. If Kakara's only way to stop a murderer from killing a civilian would kill the murderer, she would do it, though be very unhappy about it. However, Kakara is one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, let alone on the planet. She can literally intercept an attack and take it without flinching before an opponent can blink, and can spend time countering everything they do without causing any harm, talking them down the entire time.

Sparring doesn't count, as despite everything, she is a Saiyan. She likes sparring/fighting as a sport and an art, and does do her best to minimize any pain done during it, but it's ultimately fun that doesn't upset her significantly. Especially since she doesn't care about any injuries she receives.

And while a civil war is a possibility, if her side has enough of the population, with 3 FPSSY's compared to the others 1, then there's really nothing the other side can do but surrender, especially if we try and mediate for a peaceful solution. And yes, being a pacifist potentionally risks more violence, in which case she do her best to stop that violence without harming others as well.

I'm going to use a quote of Claire from Baccano's: "So remember this: mercy and compassion are virtues that only the strong are privileged to possess."

And Kakara? She's strong.
 
Gore17 said:
A master of a style against someone with the same level of skill without one can make up a 20% difference in PL. A master of a style that suits the situation, with superior skills would be able to compensate further.
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Yup. Completely agree. And, in my defense, we were winning. Without pulling out his transformation, we would have won. The problem is that we didn't win anywhere near fast enough. 4 or 5 hundred k would have let us do that.

Still would have had the Cognitive Dissonance thing, but we'd be in a better position.

Shows me for forgetting stuff from 350 pages ago :)
 
[X] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.

The framework of this one is, in fact, the truth. We did have a vision of the invasion and the scouts. There is a hidden society of ki users on this planet. They do actively work to hide themselves from both the greater galaxy, and the rest of the planet. And in many ways, they are human; their blood is not purely Saiyan, and it's impossible that some aspects of human society, both from Earth and from Garenhuld, haven't filtered in to some degree.
But for now, we maintain the Masquerade.

Unless and until the Exile society on Garenhuld can achieve the following results, I personally will continue to vote in favor of maintain the Masquerade:
1.) Maintain the freedom of government, will, etc. of the people of Garenhuld; my interpretation of population figures, and @PoptartProdigy can correct me if I'm wrong, is that Saiyans are still a non-majority of the planet's people, but a very large margin. If breaking the Masquerade would result in the Saiyans essentially ruling over the Humans, solely due to power levels and ki use, that's a net negative I personally am unwilling to accept. The Garenhulders may be "boring" to us Questers, but as far as I'm concerned they have an inherent right to live their peaceful, "boring" lives without us becoming violent overlords.
2.) Maintain the secrecy of the Saiyan people from the broader galaxy; all indications seem to be that if the galaxy knew Saiyans existed in number, they would freak out and either try to "recruit" us as "protectors" (read: fight their battles for them), or try to kill us all as obstacles to their own plans for glory and conquest. This point is in particular focused on the basic fact and knowledge of Saiyans existing at all. I don't want this revelation happening until we're in a position to handle the potential fallout, no matter the scope.
3.) Maintain our "silent running" vis-a-vis Ki use in relation to the broader galaxy; by this I mean we continue to do everything we can to not broadcast our power levels so strongly it's assured that we'll be felt from several systems to several parsecs, to even a whole galaxy away. This is for the sake of all residents of the planet, and relates to the general danger of the broader galaxy being able to go "WTF IS THAT".
4.) Maintain our (hopeful) security and secrecy against The Enemy; I feel like this is pretty self-explanatory.
5.) Find a way to disguise power levels higher than FPSSJ+Golden Oozaru; because if we can start hiding SSJ2, SSJ3, etc., then we're playing a whole different ball game. This largely connects back to 3 and 4, but is its own thing too.


Frankly, this update has just settled one big thing in my mind: We screwed up. Like, I did, the vote did when we picked what we did. But you know what? Not only is Kakara the Character going to learn, We the Voters will too. I don't want to get into sour grapes and told-you-so's. This is just me acknowledging what I see as a fact.
I don't have answers for how to "fix this" yet, and I'm going to give preference to a year-plan that has "The Examined Life", and I don't want a simplistic answer about how to deal with Pacifism, this personal crisis, etc.

Also, honestly, I'm getting sick of seeing "BERRA IS THE WORST" type talk; while I would posit he should have said something, we're ultimately a pre-teen girl who's still learning the overall Saiyan political situation. We don't know all the details, and he may have been waiting to let us in because of how he wanted to handle the situation with Maya.
Part of me is a bit frustrated about how we need to make Maya feel stronger, but I also acknowledge that she's in a very delicate place, and we're kind of in the bed we made there.
Hopefully @PoptartProdigy has Berra follow through on the "I'll tell you later" bit; it doesn't need to be right this instant, but it should hopefully be soon.
 
Gore17 said:
...Pretty much no discussion. People must have been busy.

[X] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
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I think a lot of the regulars were busy sleeping.

[X] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
 
KaintukeeBob said:
Only not voting for full disclosure because Dad will never go for it. Seriously, I'm sure the DC for that check is in the triple digits.

As the update did make clear, though, I made serious errors in Plan Crapbaskets. Given that a 20% difference in power levels is said to be dominating, I thought a 33% difference would be overwhelming enough to make up for any style bonuses.
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To be fair, that dominating 20% power level gap was, as I recall, between Jaffur and Kakara at game start- two individuals who had both been training hard to raise their 'merely' saiyan power levels but who had not yet received any kind of advanced combat training whatsoever. Plus, we DID see Jaffur, in the second round of sparring when he was fighting with a broken arm and so on, managing to hold off a significantly more powered-up opponent by force of will and superior technique.

BerzerkerNox said:
Okay I just caught up so I'm gonna go ahead and ask Poptart a question so that I can figure out how this works. Exactly how ironclad is the pacifism trait? Because up until now I had thought of it being like Gohan not liking to fight and thinking that there are other ways but being able to fight when the time calls for it. I had thought that scout fighting Cabba was one such instance but then I found out I was wrong. So now I'm wondering how hard you are holding to true pacifism. Because I can't help but feel that if it's that ironclad then Kakara should have been taking penalties for her collaborating with the Raditz family and this little conspiracy she's helping to come to fruition.

Because even with the best outcome to this it should lead to at least a small civil war when the match is finally lit. And if the pacifism trait is as hard as it seems then wouldn't Kakara's actions be ultimately leading to violence? Heck shouldn't all the sparring she does trigger it? Because even though sparring is non-lethal you are trying to hit and hurt the other person. Just not badly. So the trait as you've laid it out just seems a little contradictory to how things have gone so far in the other parts of Kakara's life since she has gotten it.
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For that matter, if it's interpreted that hardline it's kind of crippling in any setting which follows Dragonball conventions, because of just how much of the setting revolves around combat and the ability to defend oneself.

It becomes a trait that we HAVE to start ameliorating and compromising on just to make it possible for us to continue enjoying the game, unless Poptart Prodigy is planning to significantly reshape the game world to make it compatible with that level of pacifism. And maybe that will happen- but it's something to bear in mind. We may pressingly need Kakara to resolve her cognitive dissonance in favor of something more like "fighting is wrong but it's okay to use it as a lesser evil." Otherwise, she is constantly going to be tripping over situations where her own actions lead to some degree of violence, or where a situation doesn't allow her to back up and completely avoid combat, and have her cognitive dissonance triggering all the time.

I mean, Kakara has a power and skill set that is extremely well suited to resolving conflicts without violence. She'll be able to do that a lot. But unfortunately, she lives in a world where the entire way power works is very, very heavily biased in favor of punching your problems. She won't always be able to load the dice heavily enough to avoid getting thwacked by that bias, and if she's psychologically crippled whenever it happens, she's going to have trouble.
 
Terrabrand said:
I think a lot of the regulars were busy sleeping.

[X] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
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Yes. Sleeping, or preparing for my/our day, I'd imagine.
 
Simon_Jester said:
To be fair, that dominating 20% power level gap was, as I recall, between Jaffur and Kakara at game start- two individuals who had both been training hard to raise their 'merely' saiyan power levels but who had not yet received any kind of advanced combat training whatsoever. Plus, we DID see Jaffur, in the second round of sparring when he was fighting with a broken arm and so on, managing to hold off a significantly more powered-up opponent by force of will and superior technique.

For that matter, if it's interpreted that hardline it's kind of crippling in any setting which follows Dragonball conventions, because of just how much of the setting revolves around combat and the ability to defend oneself.

It becomes a trait that we HAVE to start ameliorating and compromising on just to make it possible for us to continue enjoying the game, unless Poptart Prodigy is planning to significantly reshape the game world to make it compatible with that level of pacifism. And maybe that will happen- but it's something to bear in mind. We may pressingly need Kakara to resolve her cognitive dissonance in favor of something more like "fighting is wrong but it's okay to use it as a lesser evil." Otherwise, she is constantly going to be tripping over situations where her own actions lead to some degree of violence, or where a situation doesn't allow her to back up and completely avoid combat, and have her cognitive dissonance triggering all the time.

I mean, Kakara has a power and skill set that is extremely well suited to resolving conflicts without violence. She'll be able to do that a lot. But unfortunately, she lives in a world where the entire way power works is very, very heavily biased in favor of punching your problems. She won't always be able to load the dice heavily enough to avoid getting thwacked by that bias, and if she's psychologically crippled whenever it happens, she's going to have trouble.
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Poptart has previously mentioned that non-violent solutions will always exist(if hard to find and/or achieve), and that's the pacifist route is viable. And that if a non-violent approach is impossible under the circumstances/with our skills, she can do it, though won't be happy afterwards. Pacifist also doesn't stop up us from separating people by teleporting them away, intercepting/blocking/redirecting blows or fighting defensively. If we had magic, something like a sleep spell likely wouldn't trigger it either.
fictionfan said:
That is violence.
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Nope, not by the definition Kakara/Poptart is using. If it helps, think of it as Saiyan pacifism. :p
 
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I guess I just want to underline how crippling this has the potential to be if taken to absolutist extremes, especially since it takes very few missteps on our part to accidentally shut down our own 'peaceful solution' options. So we have to tread very, very carefully to stay on the pacifist path unless we like getting smacked in the face by circumstance over and over.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I guess I just want to underline how crippling this has the potential to be if taken to absolutist extremes, especially since it takes very few missteps on our part to accidentally shut down our own 'peaceful solution' options. So we have to tread very, very carefully to stay on the pacifist path unless we like getting smacked in the face by circumstance over and over.
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Well, if there's no challenge, where would the fun be? :cool:
 
Heh.

That being said, I'd much rather have challenges that come from cunning, creative opponents, as opposed to having challenges that even a moronic or simplistic opponent can present as soon as we make one misstep. So having an "all or nothing" character build where as soon as we depart from the one true path we start taking crippling penalties, is, um.

:(
 
[X] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Heh.

That being said, I'd much rather have challenges that come from cunning, creative opponents, as opposed to having challenges that even a moronic or simplistic opponent can present as soon as we make one misstep. So having an "all or nothing" character build where as soon as we depart from the one true path we start taking crippling penalties, is, um.

:(
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We won't suffer crippling penalties due to a "single misstep". So long as we try to resolve things peacefully(which does not mean honestly or honourably) and have contingencies for when things go wrong, we'll be okay. Plus, we've got the Sight, which will be helpful to avoid major fuck-ups in the future. In Poptarts own words:
PoptartProdigy said:
She is intelligent enough to recognize that it makes things harder on her, but you all have my word that I'm not going to feed you no-win situations for as long as you have Pacifism hanging around. There will be situations where the non-violent solution won't be obvious, but there will be one.
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So relax.
 
Gore17 said:
We won't suffer crippling penalties due to a "single misstep". So long as we try to resolve things peacefully(which does not mean honestly or honourably) and have contingencies for when things go wrong, we'll be okay. Plus, we've got the Sight, which will be helpful to avoid major fuck-ups in the future. In Poptarts own words:
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So we're fucked if a massive violent voter base comes over to this quest?
 
We just need to not get caught in a situation we have to resolve with violence before we are ready to free Jaffur. Then he can solve the problems with violence for us

There's no possible way for that to go wrong!
 
NegativeJ said:
So we're fucked if a massive violent voter base comes over to this quest?
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Or anyone who missed the GM's definition of violence. As far as I am concerned something like flaring up our power as a threat falls under violence since that is the implication on what is about to happen.

So we should make sure to quote his post of the definition he is using every time it might matter.
 
NegativeJ said:
So we're fucked if a massive violent voter base comes over to this quest?
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In the sense that if we get a dramatic shift in voter-base the Quest dramatically shifts, yes.

anailater said:
What do you mean "If"
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Please don't let this be a salty thing about how this most recent vote went down. :( I'd hope you've been aware enough of all the points made by the people who voted Crapbaskets (including the guy who wrote it) that you'd know that that's not really a fair characterization...:(
 
[X] Full disclosure. Surely you can convince Dad to cast away the Masquerade your people have maintained for centuries for not terribly much reason at all, right? Well, once you do, go walk back upstairs without a Masque on, and start explaining.


Wasnat her dad the one who stopped us from actually powering up. Why the hell is he blaming us for losing its his fault. Especially since he should know how terrible of a fighter we are given the lifetime he spent with us while we had the pacifist trait
 
[X] Broad disclosure. Give her a filtered version of the events as you know them. You had a Vision a while ago, saying aliens were coming and that they were hostile. Tell her everything through the lens of human ki users being the active parties.
 
anailater said:
Yes I am aware of the points, Yes I disagree with them.
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Look, there's "disagreement", and then there's what you did, which came across as a heavy implication of "these voters are inherently violent and aren't interested in Pacifist at all", which, while it might describe some of those who made that decision, is definitively not indicative of the entirety of us who did.
But even at that, if that's what you mean, just come out and say it instead of using veiled statements.
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alid610 said:
[X] Full disclosure. Surely you can convince Dad to cast away the Masquerade your people have maintained for centuries for not terribly much reason at all, right? Well, once you do, go walk back upstairs without a Masque on, and start explaining.


Wasnat her dad the one who stopped us from actually powering up. Why the hell is he blaming us for losing its his fault. Especially since he should know how terrible of a fighter we are given the lifetime he spent with us while we had the pacifist trait
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Because we (the voters/Kakara the Character) made the wrong call when it comes to the power level we put forth. He himself said our priority was taking out the Scout, above and beyond restricting our power level.
 
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Blonddude42 said:
We just need to not get caught in a situation we have to resolve with violence before we are ready to free Jaffur. Then he can solve the problems with violence for us

There's no possible way for that to go wrong!
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I can already see it now! He will be our Bad Cop. Only with vaporizing people's body parts instead of slamming their heads into the table.

We can be the Good Cop. We tell them it looks like it hurt getting their arm vaporized, and can't they just give us the information?
 
KnightDisciple said:
Look, there's "disagreement", and then there's what you did, which came across as a heavy implication of "these voters are inherently violent and aren't interested in Pacifist at all", which, while it might describe some of those who made that decision, is definitively not indicative of the entirety of us who did.
But even at that, if that's what you mean, just come out and say it instead of using veiled statements.
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Im not making veiled statements I'm making passive aggressive statements.

I think the failure of the plan was entirely because of people being able to follow the basic character trait of the MC and now people are just going to use it as an excuse to get rid of one of the most interesting elements of the story.
 
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