Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I am entirely amiable to that. But none of that requires conquest. It is entirely possible to coexist in peace. That is what I want.
Dragon Ball: After the End
I am entirely amiable to that. But none of that requires conquest. It is entirely possible to coexist in peace. That is what I want.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
It seems like there's a lot of binary thinking going on with things that are more gradients.
-As @Aranfan has noted , "freedom on the planet" is far and away from "conquest". Plus...what's more challenging? Conquering and killing our way across the Galaxy, the Universe....or becoming the protectors of everything?
-Just because we're advocating that we not kill Dandeer in hatred and rage, or (crazily enough) even advocate she not be killed, doesn't mean we don't want her punished.
As an example, what if she was placed in a modified Seal/Masque that left her memory and personality at least largely intact, but robbed her of her power (both fighting and magic)? That seems poetic, fitting, and would remove her as a threat.
-Dandeer is not Cell. Dandeer (as has been noted by others) has already started to rethink what she did, at least to her son. It's been, what, 2 years since it happened, and the primary trigger was us? Clearly there's regret. Second-guessing. There's the possibility of her changing her mind and actions.
Cell loved what he did, and didn't know what regret or second thoughts looked like.
-I'm honestly rather uncomfortable with the "kill kill kill blood makes the grass grow" opinions. Very...yeesh.
-As @Aranfan has noted , "freedom on the planet" is far and away from "conquest". Plus...what's more challenging? Conquering and killing our way across the Galaxy, the Universe....or becoming the protectors of everything?
-Just because we're advocating that we not kill Dandeer in hatred and rage, or (crazily enough) even advocate she not be killed, doesn't mean we don't want her punished.
As an example, what if she was placed in a modified Seal/Masque that left her memory and personality at least largely intact, but robbed her of her power (both fighting and magic)? That seems poetic, fitting, and would remove her as a threat.
-Dandeer is not Cell. Dandeer (as has been noted by others) has already started to rethink what she did, at least to her son. It's been, what, 2 years since it happened, and the primary trigger was us? Clearly there's regret. Second-guessing. There's the possibility of her changing her mind and actions.
Cell loved what he did, and didn't know what regret or second thoughts looked like.
-I'm honestly rather uncomfortable with the "kill kill kill blood makes the grass grow" opinions. Very...yeesh.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Wow hey guys I have no stakes in this argument but whatever until people design a technology allowing others to punch people though the internet I'm going to butt in like a rhino.
Dandeer isn't really very evil, she took two actions that were certainly wrong, but she was emotionally traumatised, the first time she acted she did so in a fit of emotion, and the second time she did so because she actually thought what she was doing was right (And also kinda moving on inertia), we've already started to give her a moral quandary over sealing Jaffur, and we could easily continue that, Dandeer isn't a bad person, it's just that when you're so traumatised that you get flashbacks of being beaten when someone else goes SS certain actions begin to seem more appealing, her tearing the sayian society apart was secondary to having a husband and son who weren't goddamn insane, something Jaffur admits directly.
I mean, seriously, if we went up against- I dunno - Frieza, I would be advocating to kill him, none of that fancy stuff about giving him another chance, because Frieza knows what he does and is entirely happy to continue being a monster, he has no redeeming qualities, Dandeer does have some redeeming qualities, y'know? She seems nice, maybe a bit stubborn but you can't have everything, she's been pushd too hard for her actions, so in response she's now set her mind for it.
Damnit, I'm not saying this right, look, maybe Dandeer can be redeemed, a lot of people don't, but those people don't have an easy way to reverse the bad thing they did, she won't ever be forgiven and you know what? Maybe she shouldn't, but just killing her is not what she deserves, punish her, certainly, but killing is not something we should just jump to.
Or we could also let Jaffur decide, but I'm not sure how much I trust the judgement of someone who readily admits (In his head, but that still counts) that he is somewhat bloodthirsty and insane from trauma.
Dandeer isn't really very evil, she took two actions that were certainly wrong, but she was emotionally traumatised, the first time she acted she did so in a fit of emotion, and the second time she did so because she actually thought what she was doing was right (And also kinda moving on inertia), we've already started to give her a moral quandary over sealing Jaffur, and we could easily continue that, Dandeer isn't a bad person, it's just that when you're so traumatised that you get flashbacks of being beaten when someone else goes SS certain actions begin to seem more appealing, her tearing the sayian society apart was secondary to having a husband and son who weren't goddamn insane, something Jaffur admits directly.
I mean, seriously, if we went up against- I dunno - Frieza, I would be advocating to kill him, none of that fancy stuff about giving him another chance, because Frieza knows what he does and is entirely happy to continue being a monster, he has no redeeming qualities, Dandeer does have some redeeming qualities, y'know? She seems nice, maybe a bit stubborn but you can't have everything, she's been pushd too hard for her actions, so in response she's now set her mind for it.
Damnit, I'm not saying this right, look, maybe Dandeer can be redeemed, a lot of people don't, but those people don't have an easy way to reverse the bad thing they did, she won't ever be forgiven and you know what? Maybe she shouldn't, but just killing her is not what she deserves, punish her, certainly, but killing is not something we should just jump to.
Or we could also let Jaffur decide, but I'm not sure how much I trust the judgement of someone who readily admits (In his head, but that still counts) that he is somewhat bloodthirsty and insane from trauma.
Oh goddamnit I spent an hour making my argument and you just go and sum it up.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
- Location
- Australia
Read my posts. I mentioned that he gave his hatred up. He just did it after he killed Cell. Doing it in that sequence seems to have had no negative consequences whatsoever.
We all agree with this post. The reason why we haven't killed Dandeer yet is because we shouldn't be the one to punish her - it should be Jaffur. By that same margin, the Church shouldn't punish her either. She definitely has to be punished which is why we should argue that the Church shouldn't punish her, not that she should be forgiven and given mercy.
Yes.
We have to give mercy when it's appropriate to give mercy, not give it out at the first opportunity to do so. Dandeer hasn't earned mercy. What she did was horrible, she probably knows that Jaffur is still in there after Jaron told her about his dream, and all this time she still hasn't broken the seal. Regardless of whether she knows Jaffur is locked inside or thinks that Jaffur doesn't exist so long as Jaron does, she has still over several years chosen to not break the seal. She could let Jaffur exist again at any time but has chosen not to and continues to choose not to. Not only has she committed a horrific crime, she continues to commit a horrific crime every moment that Jaffur's sealed away.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
We should also strike when the iron is hot. And it is unlikely to ever get much hotter than this.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Well, I disagree that she'd think that Jaffur is still awake in there, not only was Jaron's description of the dream pretty vague, but it could also be brushed off as some quirk of the seal.
Also I think at this point she's continuing to let him be sealed because of pretty much this, the backlash has been so strong she's probably started pushing back as an automatic response, it honestly didn't take much to shave away some certainty in the sealing, so she probably doesn't feel too sure about it anyway.
Look. Let's just have Kakara say what she thinks. Don't kill Dandeer because that's something Jaffur should get a voice in. It deflects concerns Dandeer might have about us. It builds Kakara's reputation as a just ruler. It builds public support for reversing the sealing so Jaffur can weigh in with his opinion on whether or not it was a good thing.
- Location
- Australia
Jaffur doesn't want a voice, he just wants to kill her. Also, we'll want to mention that the Church shouldn't kill. Giving them a voice on whether someone lives or dies doesn't end well.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
I'm not going to be too fussed if your opinion wins, but I just don't think that I agree with that, Jaffur just isn't in his right mind, although I'm not going to argue about it (And will vote for it if vote concentration is necessary) I'm going to go for something else.
Also I thought most people agreed with reversing the sealing.
We don't have to sincerely believe that there is any doubt about his opinion to council actually getting it before doing anything irreversible. Once he's able to get it it would be out of the church's hands either way. Jaffur is a legitimate authority and lawgiver over an internal Vegetan matter in which none of the Gokun Super Saiyans are going to interfere.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Also, guys, Jii-chan probably wouldn't want us to murder people in cold (or hot) blood. He'd be cool with us killing in self-defense or the defense of others, sure...but not this.
Also, did we even consider sleeping the night before the meeting, and maybe TALKING to Jii-chan? I mean, if we make a habit out of going to him for advice and then laying down his WORD AS LAW FROM THE GODS, he'd probably not like it, but we're 9 years old and about to take a very adult move.
We probably should have talked to him.
Do we have time for a nap? Maybe during the opening ceremony?
Also, did we even consider sleeping the night before the meeting, and maybe TALKING to Jii-chan? I mean, if we make a habit out of going to him for advice and then laying down his WORD AS LAW FROM THE GODS, he'd probably not like it, but we're 9 years old and about to take a very adult move.
We probably should have talked to him.
Do we have time for a nap? Maybe during the opening ceremony?
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
In that case we should probably get support to reverse the sealing of Lord Vegeta, he's more qualified to pass judgement.
I don't think that it will result in an immediate unsealing. What it is more likely to do is hit pause on the Dandeer issue while undermining her authority and building public support for unsealing which we can tap for a huge infusion of allies in our plot. It also makes Kakara look very good.
If we had sounded him out before I might be inclined, but right now he's a complete unknown. Calling him out in the middle of a massive conference already underway is dangerous. Worse, if he had strong feelings against the sealing he probably would have forced the issue already. Instead, he is passively letting Dandeer act as reagent for his entire clan.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
No, Lord Vegeta was sealed too.
He's under the seal as well.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
When will the vote close? I have a feeling this argument will only be resolved when the next update is posted and we actually get to vote on it.
When will the vote close? I have a feeling this argument will only be resolved when the next update is posted and we actually get to vote on it.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
I vote we close the vote!
- Location
- Australia
I think for next turn, we should study Tien Style both so that Multiform is trained faster and to get the extra effectiveness out of it, that way we have more actions per year. We should also do The Examined Life on Driven since the trait gives us an action and advancing it may get us another.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
*trying to stave off a headache* I had also gotten that notion.
Okay! Let's clear some things up.
Technically, Vegeta is still the supreme authority in Clan Vegeta. He's not brain-dead, just Sealed. Legal authority still derives from him, and because she relays legal questions to him through metaphor and veiled hypotheticals before bringing his decisions to the Clan, Dandeer can claim to speak for him. So legally, only he has the right to speak on this issue. He just can't. If he were to die, Yammar would step in as regent until Jaffur produced the next Scion (the criterion for the Lordship). If both were to die, Jaffur would be the rightful Lord, although that would be a precarious position for the Clan indeed. So in terms of legalities, the Cult does not have the right to dictate punishments in this context. Neither do you; as Scion, you technically hold no authority at all. Your words hold weight, but you the Scion hold only as much authority as your father sees fit to invest you with -- presently, none. Even if you were Lady, you'd be the Lady Goku, which gives you no legal authority over internal Vegetan matters. Technically, your father gave Clan Vegeta an ironclad cassus belli when he intervened in the Sealing. But doing so altered the balance of power so severely that there's no response that can be made.
I've quoted people below not to respond to them specifically, but to address the contested points they bring up. I didn't select them out of any process, but because they were the first comments I saw that brought up the issue and I lack the patience to quote all 30+ posts per topic. Thus, if you see your post below and I get exasperated in response to it, I'm responding to the entire discussion surrounding the issue, not you.
Your pacifism does not demand that you refuse to administer justice or impose consequences. It will demand that you cease capital punishment, but binding somebody hand and foot, putting them under constant guard, and sentencing them to life imprisonment is also an option -- one provided for in the Saiyan justice system for rogue Sorcerers, in fact. Just as in real life, the spectrum does not run directly from, "Got off scot-free," to, "Electric chair," with no stops in between. There are gradations of consequence that are seeing frighteningly little consideration in the discussion, and I want all of you to be aware of them. You are playing a pacifist, yes, but bear in mind that you are also Driven, which says, "Some people think your distaste for fighting makes you weak. Those people are idiots."
Kakara's character, which was partly predetermined but also chosen yourselves in the character generation threadmark, is one that is determined to find a way for her mindset to work, or failing that, make one. She is intelligent enough to recognize that it makes things harder on her, but you all have my word that I'm not going to feed you no-win situations for as long as you have Pacifism hanging around. There will be situations where the non-violent solution won't be obvious, but there will be one. Also bear in mind that pacifism is not a monolith. Get two pacifists in the same room, and they can disagree fiercely on what constitutes violence, ranging from favoring absolute non-engagement and passivity, to physically restraining aggressors without harming them. You have options, and I'm not opposed to introducing nuance. And hell, you are permitted to develop Kakara into concluding that while fighting should be an absolute last resort, it's a resort that must sometimes be taken. It will take time, and the experience for her to develop a viewpoint as deeply nuanced as that (she is, after all, nine), but it can be done.
As a general note on pacifism, I encourage people to discard any preconceptions that because this is a Dragon Ball quest, I've made the non-combat elements of the setting less present. Fighting is and always will be a part of Dragon Ball, but don't think that I've put any less effort into the non-combat aspects of the setting. I'm particularly confused that this is even a conclusion I'm getting at all from the comments, given that quite a few people have said that they derive a great deal of enjoyment from Kakara's interactions with the Misfits, which I unashamedly base on cheesy slice of life animes. I'm committed to offering a deep and nuanced experience no matter which way you jump. Please, don't assume that Pacifist is something that will harm the quest. You can evolve into a warrior princess or even a queen if that's the way your ambition runs, or you can be a diplomat extraordinaire. You can even become a villain if you so choose, I don't care. I'll work with it and make sure you have options. Ultimately, I don't actually mind if you regret pursuing pacifism so far and choose to nix it and become a bloodthirsty conqueror, although you'll need to take Kakara down a long road to reach that point. But if you make that choice, please make it informed that you're not desperately severing a dead-end storyline by doing so. Trust me.
Please also stop insulting the viewpoints of people on the other side of the pro-/anti-pacifism divide. It's died down, which I'm grateful for, but until I reached the second half of the page above this post it hadn't. I will not name names (I didn't even make the effort to remember who was most involved, so I couldn't if I wanted to), but attacking the worldview of somebody else in an online debate over a fictional character is not cool. Discuss, yes. Insult, no. Thank you.
That trait has progressed to the point where it can only be improved through play. Given the attitude of the thread, I imagine Kakara will further develop her sense of Pacifism into a more nuanced approach with resounding speed, although not instantly.
Both. Pacifism means that you don't fight, although the specifics of that vary. Goku is gleefully eager to fight, has killed deliberately, and sometimes goes out of his way to ensure that he will have the biggest and "best" fight he possibly can -- no matter what interpretation you base him on. Even if you accept the interpretation of a warrior of justice, fighting for a good cause is not pacifist. It's not necessarily bad depending on your ethical system, but it's not pacifist either. Since she picked up the trait, Kakara hasn't been in a real fight, so it hasn't come up yet. Training, yes, but not real combat. Not every pacifist makes that distinction, but she does. So when you have the opportunity to enter real combat, you'll be able to see the vote weighting the trait talks about.
A cogent question.
They have not, at least on any organized scale. Bear in mind, its founder was the husband of the first Lady. She would have looked dimly on the secular consolidation of religious authority.
He respects them for their contributions and the fact that pursuing their Art means that they forfeit large amounts of societal respect and acceptance. He respects and values both their work and their sacrifices.
You've actually seen Lady Vegeta use magic to heal Jaffur. It was after Vegeta pegged him with a Final Flash. All kinds of healing work extremely well with any kind of medical work, but beyond things with visually obvious causes like actual injuries, suffer greatly in the absence of trained medical knowledge.
I'm not sure which of the scenarios you propose above you're asking after. Regardless, my motto is: "I'll let them try anything." That said, I do mention if something is impossible, and multiform cannot be used to create permanent second persons. I have said before that that might be a base for a sorcerous method of splitting a person, though.
You don't have the control to deliberately seek him out yet, and have not stumbled across him.
Beyond that, the vote has consolidated to the point where there is no doubt as to the winner. Vote closed. You will enter with no fanfare but not under stealth, having procured armor but left it at home. Additionally, you will invite Jaffur to your training sessions with the Misfits.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
On a hopefully less controversial topic: How many sleep overs have we had with our friends? Do we actually sleep during those, or not?
On a hopefully less controversial topic: How many sleep overs have we had with our friends? Do we actually sleep during those, or not?
- Location
- Australia
Gohan did it at eleven. Does that mean we have two years ago before we reach that nuance?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
I know it kinda got lost in the rush, but what did you think of my piece on power levels?
I know it kinda got lost in the rush, but what did you think of my piece on power levels?
- Location
- Canada
Soo, how jealous is Gohan at our relatively light educational pressure? (The dude raised to balance mind and body by the Princess of the Ox kingdom? Son of the Strongest on earth as a pre-teen?)
I mean the dude/god was pressured almost constantly on both physical and mental fronts to the point that he considered super-heroics to be a vacation (imagine a Spiderman who considered the Dao of Ben to be the Vegas creed (Vegas stays in Vegas)). That has to shape some 'exceptional' sort of Saint persona as an actual Kami of his people. (the saiyan god ki etc)
Imagine if there was Son Goku (Hope of the Universe), Vegeta (son of Vegeta, Prince (king) of ALL Saiyans)and Saiya-Man (Gohan, who prefers to let Mr. Satan get credit) as the guiding forces of a whole religion (Imagine if Saint Peter's shtick was balloon animals...), no wonder the cult is screwy as hell.
Try conjuring Gravitas with one of your Trinity being Gohan the Hilarious.
That is our Grand-papi. Ojii-chan gives no shits about politics, just surviving the Enemy, who could be anyone of SSJ+ level who got round the Z fighters..............
(Bets them being the Universal Ice-cream-folk(thing, not to be racict/genderist) who refused to give Briefs change in front of Vegeta, I wager 1 sub-par internet cookie recipe)
I mean the dude/god was pressured almost constantly on both physical and mental fronts to the point that he considered super-heroics to be a vacation (imagine a Spiderman who considered the Dao of Ben to be the Vegas creed (Vegas stays in Vegas)). That has to shape some 'exceptional' sort of Saint persona as an actual Kami of his people. (the saiyan god ki etc)
Imagine if there was Son Goku (Hope of the Universe), Vegeta (son of Vegeta, Prince (king) of ALL Saiyans)and Saiya-Man (Gohan, who prefers to let Mr. Satan get credit) as the guiding forces of a whole religion (Imagine if Saint Peter's shtick was balloon animals...), no wonder the cult is screwy as hell.
Try conjuring Gravitas with one of your Trinity being Gohan the Hilarious.
That is our Grand-papi. Ojii-chan gives no shits about politics, just surviving the Enemy, who could be anyone of SSJ+ level who got round the Z fighters..............
(Bets them being the Universal Ice-cream-folk(thing, not to be racict/genderist) who refused to give Briefs change in front of Vegeta, I wager 1 sub-par internet cookie recipe)
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Less a matter of age, more a matter of pressure.
The kind of environment that would force a Driven Pacifist down the path of Hard Decisions at 11 is dramatically different from Kakara's life. She's going to lose friends and family getting there.