Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I disagree strongly. When given a chance to choose between hatred and peace, peace is the one to pick. Choosing hatred is what the saiyans of old did. And the Saiyans of old were evil.
Dragon Ball: After the End
I disagree strongly. When given a chance to choose between hatred and peace, peace is the one to pick. Choosing hatred is what the saiyans of old did. And the Saiyans of old were evil.
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
...Yes. Voting to kill the bitch who mind whipped her husband and son makes us evil hateful monsters. Fuck that. Us voting to kill Danbeer, or going with anything other then Mercy, makes us no worse then Piccalo, Krillian, or any of the other Z-Fighters. This is just as much about Justice, as it is about Hatred or Peace, and I say Justice Should Be Done.
I have no desire for Kakara to become Vegeta 3.0 or become a bloodthirsty monster but there are far more options available then Pacifistic Goku and Bloodythirsty and Crazy Vegeta. Killing when Killing is Needed or Deserved. Mercy for Those that Earn or Deserve it. Of the two Danbeer is firmly in the former category and while I would vastly perfer letting Juffur deal with the bitch I have no problem with Kakara doing it herself or arranging things so that the Saiyans Government/Religious Branches kill her for us.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Practitioner, at the very least, but Expert and up help.
That's come up a few times, yeah. It would be possible.
Goku was hardly a pacifist.
Goku didn't kill people in the hope he could fight them later, usually.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
When religion becomes used as a pretext for violence, it is very hard to stop. That's with humans, who don't have nearly the innate aggression of Saiyans.
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
Well his constant second chances thing then. That screwed over the world so often it's crazy. Yeah it worked with Buu, after he literally had the Evil forced out of him, and Vegeta, after him allowing Perfect Cell to become a thing, working to revive Majin Buu, and killing all those people on Namek. It was still a stupid thing to do.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
As Aranfan pointed out...
And this is in spite of Worm of QM that she's by default inclined to see children as braindead non-persons (as perhaps a slight exaggeration, but the point is Dandeer is especially unlikely to listen to a child, and we've eroded her conviction.)
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
I. Don't. Care. Danbeer deserves to Die, or anything Other Then Mercy, and we can still be a Good Person without being a Pacifist or being afraid of killing someone who clearly deserves it.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Some people, indeed, you just can't reach. Dandeer is not one of them. We've already reached her somewhat.
It's true that we can be good people without being a pacifist, but our society appears to be taking an increasingly militaristic bent, and if we don't help push back against that trend it won't stop.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I stand with Aranfan.
Oh, sure, for now it's "just this one exception, this one lady". We don't need to seek to understand, to empathize, to move beyond base desire for violence. She deserves it, right? And we're morally better, right? That means it's okay to kill her, right?
No. I reject these ideas. I choose the better path.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. And you're wearing it today.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 4
Nathaniel Wolff, Fastrike, SMuha, The king Chad
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 15
Zuduke, Terrabrand, Kairos123, Dr. Dinosaur, Quest, Bakkasama, pianoman, Andres110, Yorick's Skull, Aranfan, Jazzberry, Walkin' Man, ChildishChimera, KaintukeeBob, Microtec1
[X] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
-[X] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything.
No. of votes: 1
adaer
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
No. of votes: 1
beowolf
[x] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[x] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[x] Yes.
No. of votes: 3
Ct613hulu, Bommelom, KnightDisciple
[x] Just enter.
[x] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[x] Yes.
No. of votes: 2
veekie, Icefyre
[X] Transform, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 1
Nix's Warden
@PoptartProdigy, I think we can call this vote settled.
##### 3.19
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. And you're wearing it today.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 4
Nathaniel Wolff, Fastrike, SMuha, The king Chad
[X] Just enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 15
Zuduke, Terrabrand, Kairos123, Dr. Dinosaur, Quest, Bakkasama, pianoman, Andres110, Yorick's Skull, Aranfan, Jazzberry, Walkin' Man, ChildishChimera, KaintukeeBob, Microtec1
[X] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes
-[X] Don't push him into it, but if he wants to come, let him. You don't want Dandeer to suspect anything.
No. of votes: 1
adaer
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
No. of votes: 1
beowolf
[x] Suppress your ki, then enter.
[x] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[x] Yes.
No. of votes: 3
Ct613hulu, Bommelom, KnightDisciple
[x] Just enter.
[x] No, you don't foresee needing it.
[x] Yes.
No. of votes: 2
veekie, Icefyre
[X] Transform, then enter.
[X] Yes, it'll be useful if you ever fight somebody at your power level. It's inappropriate in this setting, though, so you've left it at home.
[X] Yes.
No. of votes: 1
Nix's Warden
@PoptartProdigy, I think we can call this vote settled.
Kairos123
Insomniac Extraordinaire
That is an absolutely terrible idea.
Saying that it would work better against Berra, when it is very clearly weak to Goku style is fallacious. Honestly, Demon style is a very good fit for Kakara as it relies on Ki attacks and controlling the battlefield through ki. While we would need to look into the techniques involved, it is the best style to start her out on. Since to be lethal we would have to be significantly more powerful than our opponent, the lethality isn't a problem. Even better is in it having no disadvantages, which make it a good stepping stone.
My second preferred style would be Yamcha. We have most of the techniques for it as well. However, any vote that has us learning Krillan style first, loses my vote.
I like it a lot. I would also push the mentally unwell angle, and say that she needs help. What good would undoing it do or would burning her at the stake be if we couldn't even convince her she was wrong. Having her publicly denounce her methods would discredit the sealing far more than simply ridding ourself of the current problem.
Her version of pacifism views fighting as inherently wrong, regardless of the reasons behind it. To be clear, I do want to go for mercy, as Dandeer is clearly mentally ill after years of abuse and fear, but Kakara's current incarnation of pacifism is detrimental and will eventually be harmful to her own mental health.
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Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
Your point? Something you apparently fail to understand, is that when it comes to Saiyans , they are literally born for battle. Every Saiyan, no matter their age, gender, or particular beliefs, LIVES to fight. To battle worthy opponents. To find their next challenge. These are things every Saiyan yearns for in their heart and you know what? There is NOTHING wrong with that.
If the Saiyans want to take over the world? I don't care. If they want to head out to the stars for their own planet? I don't care. If the thread wants to go Conquerer! Kakara? More power to them. But I REFUSE to let this bullshit about Pacifism being the better and more noble option here stand. I have literally hours where I have nothing to do and I'll argue my point for every single one of them.
- Location
- Australia
I think it's OOC and introduces an unnecessary chance of failure.
Vegetans mock the Goku Clan because one of their Houses keeps rebelling and never getting seriously punished for it, which in turn makes them rebel more. Bringing up Goku's willingness to give mercy will backfire, especially since giving mercy to Vegeta resulted in a dead Namekian village, a few dead Earthlings in his fight with 18, and Semi-Perfect Cell completing the transformation to Perfect Cell. It also goes contrary to Kakara's feelings who while she's generally pacifist in all ways, she absolutely believes Dandeer should die and the ONLY reason she hasn't iced her herself yet is because she's saving her for Jaffur.
Instead, I think we should do something similar to what we did when confronting her. We disagree that she should be burnt at the stake, but only because giving a religion the power over life and death is a really, really bad idea. She should definitely die, for sure, but committing a crime in the eyes of the faith isn't what she should die for.
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
Yes. Considering all the laws she broke, the political shitstorm literally tearing our society apart, and the mental trauma she's put her son through? Yes. We are absolutely right to have her killed in a legal manner and pretty much any RW government that has the Death Penalty would agree.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
As Poptart said, this is a chance to develop her character, and I want to develop it away from hatred.
- Location
- Australia
It'll drive us to absolute pacifism when what we're looking to achieve is Gohan pacifism.
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
It is okay to hate something. So long as you don't allow that hate to consume you utterly, to poison your mind and emotions until everything you see, and hear, and love is tainted with hate, there is nothing wrong with hating. So long as you can balance out that hate with love it's perfectly normal.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
...Hatred is poison.
I do believe that she needs to be brought to judgement. She needs to be punished.
But I don't think killing her is the best thing to do.
In fact, I don't see hatred as something we should hold on to. At all.
I do believe that she needs to be brought to judgement. She needs to be punished.
But I don't think killing her is the best thing to do.
In fact, I don't see hatred as something we should hold on to. At all.
And guess what you are doing.
Too bad that these are Saiyan-human hybrids, not pure hybrids. Neither Gohan, Goten or Trunks ever showed any kind of natural lust for battle,
Also, do you really think it was also wrong for Dandeer to mindwipe Vegeta? Because, well, I can't think of any other option for her to stop him from abusing her and her children outside of killing him, and, well, I can't see how that's better than sealing him.
Heck, assuming that trapping Jaffur in his own mind was a side effect of sealing him while he was a Super Saiyan as opposed to something she did eventually, I honestly that her plan to sealing both Jaffur and Vegeta would have ended with both of them being better off than if she had done nothing (of course, Jaffur's certainly not better off due to being trapped in his own mind instead of having his memories rewritten, and the best option would still have been to seal Vegeta but not Jaffur).
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I disagree. I don't think it will drive us to absolute pacifism. We love winning too much, and we can probably modify our pacifism trait towards a more "It's okay to fight when you have to" approach by learning combat styles.
@PoptartProdigy , what kind of "The Examined Life" actions would we need to go for a "peace is absolutely better, but sometimes it must be defended with violence" stance that the thread seems to want.
- Location
- Australia
Gohan hated Cell. He hated him before he got control of his emotions and he hated him after. Hating him and killing him didn't poison his mind forever after.
Considering the things Dandeer has done, Kakara's wishing for her death is justified. If we give her mercy despite the great evils of her crimes, that's effectively setting a bar that'll prevent her from killing villains that need to be put down because "It's not more evil than what Dandeer did and I argued that she should live for the sake of mercy".
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Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
That's your opinion. I think it's stupid but that's your opinion and you have a right to feel that way. I think I'm right but I'm shit at reasonable debating and I'm more stubborn then a mountain so let's drop this here. I have no issue with you to make me want to rage debate with you.
Considering Gohan, Goten, and Trunks were all raised and treated as Human, instead of raised and treated as a Saiyan, that's not really saying much.
Vegeta getting Mindwhipped? I can understand that. Jaffur though? Fucking hell no. She was so busy freaking out about Jaffur lossing his shit about Vegeta getting mindwhipped she couldn't even bring herself to ask her son WHY he was so pissed before going 'Nope. He needs a mind wipe too'.
No. Her entire handling of her son was a massive fuck up and something that should never have been even considered.
No, Kakara wishing for Dandeer's death is not justified unless trapping Jaffur in his own mind was the intentional result of the sealing rather than a side effect of Jaffur being sealed while Super Saiyan. If Jaffur had just turned into Jaron rather than Jaron being a separate person, Jaffur would be better of now than he was being abused by Lord Vegeta (of course, he'd be even better off if Vegeta got sealed while Jaffur don't, but still).
Now, on the other hand, I wouldn't fault Jaffur for wanting Dandeer dead, as he's the one who got trapped in his own mind by her (intentionally or not), and either way, he and Lord Vegeta (if he gets unsealed) are the people with the actual authority to punish Dandeer.
Goku was also raised and treated as a human, yet he did possess a Saiyan lust for battle. Sure, the modern (hybrid) Saiyans may be culturally disposed to fighting, but that's not the same as being born to yearn for battle.
She was quite clearly panicking. First her husband almost kills her son, and then (at least in her mind) her son almost kills her for saving him. Thanks to the rationalization she made up for why Vegeta was abusive (his "tainted heritage"), she then concluded that the only way to have Jaffur live a happy life was to seal him (and, well, Jaron seems much happier and mentally better off than Jaffur, so if it wasn't for the fact they're not the same person and Jaffur ended up trapped in his own, I could actually see her point). None of that gives her any right to seal Jaffur, mind you, but she didn't have any bad intentions (again, this is assuming Jaffur being trapped in his own mind was an accident. If it wasn't, fuck Dandeer).
And again, the only one with the right (both morally and legally) to decide what happens to her is Jaffur, not Kakara or some religious cult wanting to burn her for being a heretic.