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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Andres110 said:
Gohan hated Cell. He hated him before he got control of his emotions and he hated him after. Hating him and killing him didn't poison his mind forever after.
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That's because he let go of his hate.

After the timeskip, he didn't react in a hateful manner whenever cell was mentioned. In fact, he really didn't react at all.

Why? Because he let it go. He gave it up.

Talking from personal experience? Hatred always makes things worse. We should abandon it by the wayside, and not let it rule us.

Should Dandeer be punished? Yes. Should we let it be done from our spite?

No.
 
Thriceboiled said:
It was Gohan's hatred of Cell that made him drag out the fight long enough that Cell got salty and flipped the game board, killing Goku and coming back even stronger.
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No it was Gohan being overcome with the bloodthirstiness and sadism that is inherit in achieving the next level of Super Saiyan. Hell Goku turned into a cold hearted monster when he first went Super Saiyan 1. It's hardly Gohans fault for being overwhelmed by the transformation into Super Saiyan 2.
 
I'm going to give my two cents here.

I think that arguing for Pacifism, when it's a Pacifism that makes our character actually ill to even try and fight, in a race that pretty much is defined by fighting, is not a good idea.

I'm not saying that I'm against pacifism, I think that it could work really well, but at the same time we have to understand that there are going to be people, reces, aliens, etc., that cannot be argued with, and cannot be reasoned with (I. E. Freezer, Cell, Babidi, etc.). So, for those cases we must be able to fight, we must be able to stand up for what we believe is wrong and fight against it if the other side does not listen.

Now, I hear arguments about how Dandeer should not be punished, harmed, killed, by us because it would result from our hatred, from our spite. But at the same time, we can see that Kakara hates her because she sees what she did as wrong. She has heard the arguments she made, the arguments her father made, and she is convinced that they are wrong. That is the central part of her hatred, that what they did to Jaffur is just plain wrong.

If she starts arguing for forgiveness, if she starts thinking thatshe should be pardoned, is the same as saying that what they did to Jaffur doesn't matter, and if that's the case, then why was she fighting them at all? Why did she not join them in sealing him? If we are forgiving her for her actions, then she clearly did nothing wrong.

Here I see that Kakara has her convictions, and it's beacuse of those convictions that she would at least argue for Dandeer not to be punished by her, but by the people that she has harmed (I.E. Jaffur). By that same token, she would not argue for her to be forgiven. Her actions, impulsed by trauma, or by panic, do not deserve to be forgiven.
 
overmind said:
I'm going to give my two cents here.

I think that arguing for Pacifism, when it's a Pacifism that makes our character actually ill to even try and fight, in a race that pretty much is defined by fighting, is not a good idea.

I'm not saying that I'm against pacifism, I think that it could work really well, but at the same time we have to understand that there are going to be people, reces, aliens, etc., that cannot be argued with, and cannot be reasoned with (I. E. Freezer, Cell, Babidi, etc.). So, for those cases we must be able to fight, we must be able to stand up for what we believe is wrong and fight against it if the other side does not listen.

Now, I hear arguments about how Dandeer should not be punished, harmed, killed, by us because it would result from our hatred, from our spite. But at the same time, we can see that Kakara hates her because she sees what she did as wrong. She has heard the arguments she made, the arguments her father made, and she is convinced that they are wrong. That is the central part of her hatred, that what they did to Jaffur is just plain wrong.

If she starts arguing for forgiveness, if she starts thinking thatshe should be pardoned, is the same as saying that what they did to Jaffur doesn't matter, and if that's the case, then why was she fighting them at all? Why did she not join them in sealing him? If we are forgiving her for her actions, then she clearly did nothing wrong.

Here I see that Kakara has her convictions, and it's beacuse of those convictions that she would at least argue for Dandeer not to be punished by her, but by the people that she has harmed (I.E. Jaffur). By that same token, she would not argue for her to be forgiven. Her actions, impulsed by trauma, or by panic, do not deserve to be forgiven.
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Thank you for stating that for more eloquently then I ever could.
 
overmind said:
I'm going to give my two cents here.

I think that arguing for Pacifism, when it's a Pacifism that makes our character actually ill to even try and fight, in a race that pretty much is defined by fighting, is not a good idea.

I'm not saying that I'm against pacifism, I think that it could work really well, but at the same time we have to understand that there are going to be people, reces, aliens, etc., that cannot be argued with, and cannot be reasoned with (I. E. Freezer, Cell, Babidi, etc.). So, for those cases we must be able to fight, we must be able to stand up for what we believe is wrong and fight against it if the other side does not listen.

Now, I hear arguments about how Dandeer should not be punished, harmed, killed, by us because it would result from our hatred, from our spite. But at the same time, we can see that Kakara hates her because she sees what she did as wrong. She has heard the arguments she made, the arguments her father made, and she is convinced that they are wrong. That is the central part of her hatred, that what they did to Jaffur is just plain wrong.

If she starts arguing for forgiveness, if she starts thinking thatshe should be pardoned, is the same as saying that what they did to Jaffur doesn't matter, and if that's the case, then why was she fighting them at all? Why did she not join them in sealing him? If we are forgiving her for her actions, then she clearly did nothing wrong.

Here I see that Kakara has her convictions, and it's because of those convictions that she would at least argue for Dandeer not to be punished by her, but by the people that she has harmed (I.E. Jaffur). By that same token, she would not argue for her to be forgiven. Her actions, impulsed by trauma, or by panic, do not deserve to be forgiven.
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I'm not saying she shouldn't be punished. Hell, I think she should be punished to the full extent.

I'm saying that we shouldn't be the one to punish her. There is a difference.
 
overmind said:
If she starts arguing for forgiveness, if she starts thinking thatshe should be pardoned, is the same as saying that what they did to Jaffur doesn't matter, and if that's the case, then why was she fighting them at all? Why did she not join them in sealing him? If we are forgiving her for her actions, then she clearly did nothing wrong.

Here I see that Kakara has her convictions, and it's beacuse of those convictions that she would at least argue for Dandeer not to be punished by her, but by the people that she has harmed (I.E. Jaffur). By that same token, she would not argue for her to be forgiven. Her actions, impulsed by trauma, or by panic, do not deserve to be forgiven.
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I'm saying that neither Kakara nor the Ancestor Cult have any right, both legal and moral, to punish Dandeer and that the punishment should be up to her main victim, Jaffur, who has more actual legal authority to decide her punishment than anyone other than Lord Vegeta (who I'd REALLY rather not unseal).
 
Look, whether we want her to live or to be punished with death, can we at least agree that her getting killed under the justification of HERESY! instead of morality is a terrible idea? We shouldn't have to ask for mercy because that justifies the cult as having the power to kill its members when justice should be under the purview of the government, in this case, the Lords. If anyone has right to condemn her to death it would be her lord (Vegeta or Jaffur) or if they are not available, the Lord of Goku or Yanmar if he makes a successful claim for regency.

Whether Dandeer deserves to die or not, this is not the place for her to die and letting the ancestor cult decide if she should sets a precedent that would be hard to take back. Because it wouldn't just be "sealing is punished by death" but "the cult can give the capital punishment to its members".

That said, the argument for mercy is a bad idea because we shouldn't need to make it in the first place since it legitimises their right to that decisión... actually, do we even know if it is likely for them to aim for that or if it was Apra being particularly fanatic?

@PoptartProdigy has the ancestor cult ever decided to kill over heresy? How did that go for them if that was the case?

Two more questions that have nothing to do with that:

It was said in passing that while most saiyans feel contempt for sorcerers, Berra is one of the saiyans that respects them the most. Could you tell us why or is it something Kakara doesn't know?

We know that ki healing is a thing but is there magic healing like Dende or Majin Buu could use? If so, what are its limits? Diseases? Can it help with pregnantcies or weak babies?

Zuduke said:
What interpretation of Goku are you going with. The anime where he is a righteous hero of justice or like the manga where he is selfish and self-centred.
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Probably because most of his desicions to spare others was so that he could fight them later. He told Krilin to spare Vegeta so that he could fight him again, he refused to hunt for Gero during the 3 years gap because he wanted to fight the androids, he held back against Majin Buu as a SS3 so that Goten and Trunks could fight him, he wanted kid buu reincarnated to fight him again. You could argue that he forgave Frieza's and Piccolo's life but the first one was because he didn't see him as a threat anymore and the second was because of Kami.

So yeah, Gohan is more of a pacifist than Goku. By far.
 
Bommelom said:
I'm saying that neither Kakara nor the Ancestor Cult have any right, both legal and moral, to punish Dandeer and that the punishment should be up to her main victim, Jaffur, who has more actual legal authority to decide her punishment than anyone other than Lord Vegeta (who I'd REALLY rather not unseal).
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Religiously the Ancestor Cult does have a say, because Dandeer is a self professed member of their faith, and committed what could very well be considered Arch-Heresy. The Ancestor Pope has every bit as much right to punish her as the Catholic Pope does, if someone were to mindcontrol a direct descendant of Jesus, while spousing they are a proud Christian.

Kakara has a say in her punishment because she is, without a doubt, the single most powerful and influential Saiyan alive. Even if she has no direct legal authority, every person in the room, from the Cultist's, to the Clan Nobel's, to the workers in the courtroom, are going to be looking to her for her opinion on the proceedings, and if she asked to lead the prosecution they would most likely let her. THAT is the power of her political and social standing right now.
 
Nix's Warden said:
THAT is the power of her political and social standing right now.
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Which is why I think it is even more important to have her stand against hatred. I wanted Kakara to win the character creation so that Saiyan society could be reformed. This is probably one of the most important possible times for that, and Kakara has the standing to really push for a more peaceful direction for Saiyan society to take.

If we don't argue for mercy here, then what even was the point of choosing Kakara?
 
Aranfan said:
Which is why I think it is even more important to have her stand against hatred. I wanted Kakara to win the character creation so that Saiyan society could be reformed. This is probably one of the most important possible times for that, and Kakara has the standing to really push for a more peaceful direction for Saiyan society to take.

If we don't argue for mercy here, then what even was the point of choosing Kakara?
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To not be an arrogant self entitled jack ass with a broken family?

Like I would have voted for Jaffur in Char Gen but I wasn't part of the quest at the time.

I have no intention of changing Saiyan society. I like it right where it is thank you and so long as we don't go Full Old Saiyan then I don't care if we get more conquery or battle hungry as a species.
 
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Militarism is a spectrum goddamnit, and going full battle hungry conqueror is only better than going Full Old Saiyan by a matter of degree, in the way it's better to be stabbed than shot.
 
Aranfan said:
Militarism is a spectrum goddamnit, and going full battle hungry conqueror is only better than going Full Old Saiyan by a matter of degree, in the way it's better to be stabbed than shot.
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No? Considering Old Saiyans we're literally barbarians or planet exterminating monsters I rather think Militarism is different.

There is a rather large difference between conquering the planet you have been living and hiding in fear on for centuries and heading out to unsuspecting planets across the stars and exterminating all intelligent life on them on the orders of a omnicidel mad man.
 
There is the option of advocating for Dandeer, poorly. There will be a side advocating for her, but with her prominence Kakara could dominate the voice of that side, and if she does a poor job of arguing for it end up neutering it while still earning herself a reputation for mercy.

My personal preference is actually for her to dodge the will check entirely and just speak her honest mind: let Dandeer live until Jaffur has a chance to weigh in. He is the legitimate authority as well as the one most well informed about the crime. It also brews support for having the sealing undone.


Speaking of that, something we might want to try is to have Kakara recreate the sealing on herself. She is a Super-Saiyan and actually stronger than Jaffur was at the time. She can even become a golden great ape. It lets her experiment with the situation and way to break out of it. It might even produce a new sister for her to multi-form out as a permanent ally.

@PoptartProdigy : could this be done?
 
Nix's Warden said:
No? Considering Old Saiyans we're literally barbarians or planet exterminating monsters I rather think Militarism is different.

There is a rather large difference between conquering the planet you have been living and hiding in fear on for centuries and heading out to unsuspecting planets across the stars and exterminating all intelligent life on them on the orders of a omnicidel mad man.
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Fascism is not far off from regular militarism, genocide is not far off from fascism, and with how aggressive Saiyans are, it's entirely possible that swearing fealty to Freeza was just a straightfoward extension of their militarism. Because they wanted to fight, and Freeza offered them chances to fight.
 
I'm starting to regret letting the pacifist faction get so much traction, at this point I don't like it one bit, though considering I voted for Jaffur and the only thing stopping me from leaving is @PoptartProdigy's world-building and the desire to screw over Dandeer and reclaim past glory by killing The Enemy.
 
Aranfan said:
Fascism is not far off from regular militarism, genocide is not far off from fascism, and with how aggressive Saiyans are, it's entirely possible that swearing fealty to Freeza was just a straightfoward extension of their militarism. Because they wanted to fight, and Freeza offered them chances to fight.
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Your banking on the Current Saiyans turning into Old Saiyans. Just look back on Dandeer's reaction of Vegeta's actions, how everyone was horrified of Vegeta's treatment of his son, to see how likely that is.

Being aggressive or becoming conquerors Does Not Mean you are doomed to descend to Fascism, Genocide, and Barbarism. That's nothing more then unreasonable exaggeration, especially when Kakara is the most influential Saiyan alive, and her arguing for her people to conduct themselves as they should, as the descendants of Goku and Vegeta they are, as the noble warriors they are, would be FAR easier then trying to get them to abandon conflict entirely. Also far less likely to get her alienated from her entire race and murder her social/political influence.
 
Aranfan said:
You are the one saying the most influential of saiyans should argue for "kill the bitch".
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Yes. There is a difference between saying 'Kill the mind whipping bitch who's manage to almost singlehandedly tear our entire society apart and put us on the brink of civil war' and 'Let our people do as they wish just don't let them go off the deep end'.

Can you tell what that difference is because I'm beginning to think you can't.
 
Nix's Warden said:
Religiously the Ancestor Cult does have a say, because Dandeer is a self professed member of their faith, and committed what could very well be considered Arch-Heresy. The Ancestor Pope has every bit as much right to punish her as the Catholic Pope does, if someone were to mindcontrol a direct descendant of Jesus, while spousing they are a proud Christian.

Kakara has a say in her punishment because she is, without a doubt, the single most powerful and influential Saiyan alive. Even if she has no direct legal authority, every person in the room, from the Cultist's, to the Clan Nobel's, to the workers in the courtroom, are going to be looking to her for her opinion on the proceedings, and if she asked to lead the prosecution they would most likely let her. THAT is the power of her political and social standing right now.
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While the cult has right to have authority over its member, capital punishment should be monopoly of the state. That means it is up to the Rulers of Vegeta to decide her punishment, their regent if they are not available and the regent is not Dandeer and, failing that, a council of the clans or the Lord of Goku. Since dad already ruled on the matter, we can't use our authority as Scion since as a Lord he is above us.

While we certainly have the influence to make a ruling, especially among these people who worship us, to do so undermines the traditions stablished by the founding of the clans and undermines our father as head of Goku. We can express our disaproval of the sealing and say she should be punished but we should let the cult steep over its limitations. They can set punishment on her as long as it is not illegal but killing her now would be illegal. It also kills the one who knows how the Seal works best.

@Aranfan a better saiyan society is not one in which mercy overshadows justice. Mercy is given by the individual, not the society. While a lord can give mercy, it must be because he thinks it is right since he speaks for all of his people. Arguing that she should receive mercy at this point undermines justice because she is neither repentant nor we consider her circunstances extenuating in Jaffur's case. Furthermore, we know Jaffur is aware so the wrong she did to him is still ongoing. You are giving her mercy for a crime she is still comitting when you know it is wrong and it hurts an innocent.

If you want a better saiyan society you should instead be arguing that mob justice undermines the whole system and that she need psychiatric help. But we can't give the impression that what she did is ok.

Look, I am saying that this is not the place for her to die. It would spark a war if it happens because we would bedisobeying the lord goku and killing the acting leader of clan Vegeta on the basis of a Religion that represents only a fifth of the population.
 
Nix's Warden said:
Yes. There is a difference between saying 'Kill the mind whipping bitch who's manage to almost singlehandedly tear our entire society apart and put us on the brink of civil war' and 'Let our people do as they wish just don't let them go off the deep end'.

Can you tell what that difference is because I'm beginning to think you can't.
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I am thinking about the larger social ramifications and contexts. If we wed ourselves to aggression here, then that is going to have knock on effects for both Kakara and Saiyan society. It is true that the path to the Old Saiyans is a long one, and that the step you are proposing to take is neither strictly necessary nor wholly sufficient to reach the end, but it is a step on the path. And with the growing militarism and aggression of Saiyan society as it stands, it would only exacerbate those issues. It will also make it harder for Kakara to argue for moderation in the future.

And I kinda don't want to conquer anybody. We can get our fill of good fights by sparring with each other, we don't need to conquer anybody or fight anybody who doesn't want to participate it.
 
Aranfan said:
I am thinking about the larger social ramifications and contexts. If we wed ourselves to aggression here, then that is going to have knock on effects for both Kakara and Saiyan society. It is true that the path to the Old Saiyans is a long one, and that the step you are proposing to take is neither strictly necessary nor wholly sufficient to reach the end, but it is a step on the path. And with the growing militarism and aggression of Saiyan society as it stands, it would only exacerbate those issues. It will also make it harder for Kakara to argue for moderation in the future.

And I kinda don't want to conquer anybody. We can get our fill of good fights by sparring with each other, we don't need to conquer anybody or fight anybody who doesn't want to participate it.
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Right I have shit I need to do so this is going to be my last response for the night.

We don't have to conquer anyone thats right, We don't Have To, but unless you want Kakarra to FORCE Peace on the Saiyans that's what's going to happen. The Saiyans are sick and tired of having to hide everyday of their lives. They want freedom, they want to be able to walk across their home planet without having to pretend to be something they aren't. Unless Kakarra forces them not to, or somehow gives them a reason they shouldn't take over the planet besides 'This is wrong and offends my morals', they are going to do it.

A single step can easily be retracted should be it be a mistake or advanced if it is not. Regardless your saying all this without any way for Kakara to back it up besides 'Kakara says they shouldn't'. Just....Look at Bakkasama's post above. I disagree with him over the Cult thing but he has by backing over the Justice issue.
 
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