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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[X] Tell Maya that we Saw something that is one of those secrets we can't tell her.
-[X] Tell Dad Everything via telepathy.
[X] Going forward tell:
-[X] Sensei Carrick
-[X] Grandma
[X] Yes (allow the reveal)

I don't want to just talk about everything at once with May for sure, I don't think an IT to Sensei's is a good idea, and I feel like the "we saw our great-grandad die" is maybe a bit much right now. "We can't tell you because it's tied into some stuff we can't talk about" is entirely the truth.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
A magically-binding contract of non-disclosure.
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Does said contract also cover the secret of ki?

Oh, and do the Garenhulders have any form of marriage, and if so, how important is it viewed as? Okay, this probably varies per country since these primitives don't even have a proper world government yet, but what about in the country where Kakara lives? Kinda curious how/if their attitudes differ from the Saiyans.

And, on a kinda related note, what are Saiyan opinions on homosexuality?

And on an entirely unrelated note, since there's republics/democracies in this world and the idea therefore exists, have any Saiyans ever tried to advocate for (or, if rebels, depose the Lords/Ladies and forcibly install) some version of democracy?
 
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Lailoken said:
The evidence is that the alternative is that Kakara is the very first seer in the entire history of the exile to see what she did, despite pretty much everybody else inevitably trying and failing to solve the greatest mystery and threat in their entire history, and there is no indication that she is in any way special as a seer.

We've just spent a page establishing that it's trivial to have the seer check over Maya without exposing him.

Is it so hard to believe that when a GM tells you flat-out, word-of-god, that the chances of something being true are literally tens-of-billions-to-one against, they actually mean it?

The Lord's plan is to expose her to the Saiyan population, in order to expose her to the world. He wants to use her as a way to establish a cover for the Saiyans using their ki and openly identifying as exceptional on the planet in preparation for leaving it.

If you can't imagine a plot which would have serious repercussions for an uncontrolled exposure, that's your lack of imagination. The most likely explanation for the existence of Maya is that somebody, likely quite powerful given the nature of her masque, is committing a crime which carries a sentence of death, and this whole plan is to tell them in no uncertain terms that the jig is up and they need to pull out all the stops. If that somebody turns out to be the grandmaster Sorceress with a penchant for custom seals who is Berra's close ally and who Berra helped usurp the leadership of half the population in an act which almost precipitated a civil war and has precipitated an active rebellion on the eve of an alien invasion, it could easily be a really big problem.
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1. Yes we do have evidence that it is possible for Kakara to be the first seer in history to do this. Namely, the fact that she is the Player character. As PC it is expected for her to be at the center of prophecies and such.

On a slightly more IC note, I believe Poptart has said before that visions come when they are relevant to the person receiving them. A Seer that lived and died without ever meeting the enemy would have no reason to have visions of him.

Presumably, we are going to meet him and he's on his way relatively soon, since he is the driving force of this quest. He is relevant to us, that is why we Saw him.


2. Yes, he will eventually tell the world about her. BUT NOT TODAY. Today he's only letting the Saiyans know that something is going on, and he's handling it.

He can easily get her checked out later, before the world reveal. And he can do it safely by having a Saiyan in Masque come over. That way everyone will know whats going on and it can be done safely and securely.

There is no reason to take risks by impulsively bringing Maya into the heart of Saiyan territory with no warning.

3. Finally, Poptart did not say taking Maya over was trivial.

He said we could IT outside his door if we wanted to. Not that it would be safe or smart to do so. I'm saying it's too much of a risk.
 
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Bommelom said:
Does said contract also cover the secret of ki?

Oh, and do the Garenhulders have any form of marriage, and if so, how important is it viewed as? Okay, this probably varies per country since these primitives don't even have a proper world government yet, but what about in the country where Kakara lives? Kinda curious how/if their attitudes differ from the Saiyans.

And, on a kinda related note, what are Saiyan opinions on homosexuality?

And on an entirely unrelated note, since there's republics/democracies in this world and the idea therefore exists, have any Saiyans ever tried to advocate for (or, if rebels, depose the Lords/Ladies and forcibly install) some version of democracy?
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Oh, absolutely.

...yes, they do. It's caught in a weird space where modern views on marriage have emerged so swiftly that they are in a direct clash with more usual contract-based joinings of family properties, but they have marriage.

"If you're heir to something, you have to make an heir for you. If that means sperm bank, then it means sperm bank." Otherwise, they don't care.

They have tried to advocate for it or rebel for it. Tried.
 
pkong said:
1. Yes we do have evidence that it is possible for Kakara to be the first seer in history to do this. Namely, the fact that she is the Player character. As PC it is expected for her to be at the center of prophecies and such.

On a slightly more IC note, I believe Poptart has said before that visions come when they are relevant to the person receiving them. A Seer that lived and died without ever meeting the enemy would have no reason to have visions of him.

Presumably, we are going to meet him and he's on his way relatively soon, since he is the driving force of this quest. He is relevant to us, that is why we Saw him.


2. Yes, he will eventually tell the world about her. BUT NOT TODAY. Today he's only letting the Saiyans know that something is going on, and he's handling it.

He can easily get her checked out later, before the world reveal. And he can do it safely by having a Saiyan in Masque come over. That way everyone will know whats going on and it can be done safely and securely.

There is no reason to take risks by impulsively bringing Maya into the heart of Saiyan territory with no warning.

3. Finally, Poptart did not say taking Maya over was trivial.

He said we could IT outside his door if we wanted to. Not that it would be safe or smart to do so. I'm saying it's too much of a risk.
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The PC has certain suspensions from disbelief, traditionally one single one, but she is already Scion during the critical period of Saiyan and probably galactic history. We have a list of traits and exceptionalities, and none of them are, "greatest Saiyan seer there has ever been".

Spontaneous, untrained visions tend to be related to the observer, though they can also be wildly off-base as was explained when she saw herself killing worlds as an SSJ2. Trained seers can steer their visions, and there have been lots of trained seers throughout the hundreds of years of exile history who have observed heaps of distant ancient history they aren't personally involved in. The battle with the Enemy is noted as being exceptional.

He is acting today in a way which is publicly visible and certainly exposes Maya's existence to the Saiyans. If it turns out that his rash actions were based on false assumptions, that is at the least going to make him look like a fool and undermine the very authority he is attempting to establish.

I never said that Pops said taking Maya over was trivial. I said it was, and thoroughly shot down every argument that it wasn't. You have yet to even make more than a bald declaration on the matter. The seer is an isolated hermit fortune-teller, and Kakara can telepathically communicate with him over hundreds of miles, sense everything down to individual insects out to the horizon, and that doesn't even touch on the technological options. Hell, zipping over, hailing him, and zipping back before bringing her is an option. Getting his tail hidden before Maya sees it is trivial.
 
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Lailoken said:
Spontaneous, untrained visions tend to be related to the observer, though they can also be wildly off-base as was explained when she saw herself killing worlds as an SSJ2. Trained seers can steer their visions, and there have been lots of trained seers throughout the hundreds of years of exile history who have observed heaps of distant ancient history they aren't personally involved in. The battle with the Enemy is noted as being exceptional.
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I don't know if this is true... Sure its been said that trained seers can control their visions better. But if it works like you are suggesting then a seer can see anything, anywhere at anytime just by wanting to see it, regardless if they know what they are looking for or not. While its up to Poptart to decide how the powers work, that sounds too OP for an already OP ability.

Lailoken said:
He is acting today in a way which is publicly visible and certainly exposes Maya's existence to the Saiyans. If it turns out that his rash actions were based on false assumptions, that is at the least going to make him look like a fool and undermine the very authority he is attempting to establish.
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This may be true, but he was the one who wondered if Maya was actually a lost saiyen child to begin with, yet he is still going through with it. He is a Lord, and as he just reminded us, he is the master of plotting, not us. I'm just willing to trust that he knows what he is doing.

I think the original point of asking us if we want to go through with the reveal was to gauge our reaction to getting more power in clan Goku and form that trait, not for us to wonder if there is some kind of conspiracy in the works.


Lailoken said:
I said it was, and thoroughly shot down every argument that it wasn't. You have yet to even make more than a bald declaration on the matter. The seer is an isolated hermit fortune-teller, and Kakara can telepathically communicate with him over hundreds of miles, sense everything down to individual insects out to the horizon, and that doesn't even touch on the technological options. Hell, zipping over, hailing him, and zipping back before bringing her is an option. Getting his tail hidden before Maya sees it is trivial.
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I don't have to make an argument. It absolutely is a risk, because you are talking about taking an outsider into our territory with no warning, to meet a man who lives by himself so he doesn't have to worry about masquerade issues and to use magic on Maya that will just raise questions from her about whats going on.

Hell you were the one who was just saying that Saiyens don't even tell people their real names for fear of breaking the masquerade. This is going a few steps farther than that.

It is absolutely a risk. The question is "is it worth it" which you are trying to make a case for. Except your case revolves around an utterly ridiculous conspiracy theory that I don't buy for a second. That is where we are disagreeing.

Its not that I lack imagination, its that I'm applying Occam's razor. I mean your suggesting that someone we never met before hid a baby a decade ago, before we were born, put her under an undetectable spell that no one has heard of before, left her with human parents, and arranged for her to come to our school, all to do something nefarious.

I think the billion to one odds of being a mutant are much more believable compared to that.

Also, don't forget that even if you are right, her fancy masque would be a sorcerers spell. We need a sorcerer to look at her, not a seer. We are going to the seer to ask his opinion on the vision not to check out Maya. If we go by your suggestion we are just having her tag along for no reason... Asking her to trust us again after she has already trusted us as far as she has.
 
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[X] Tell Maya that we Saw something that is one of those secrets we can't tell her.
-[X] Tell Dad Everything via telepathy.
[X] Going forward tell:
-[X] Sensei Carrick
-[X] Grandma
[X] Yes (allow the reveal)
 
pkong said:
I don't know if this is true... Sure its been said that trained seers can control their visions better. But if it works like you are suggesting then a seer can see anything, anywhere at anytime just by wanting to see it, regardless if they know what they are looking for or not. While its up to Poptart to decide how the powers work, that sounds too OP for an already OP ability.



This may be true, but he was the one who wondered if Maya was actually a lost saiyen child to begin with, yet he is still going through with it. He is a Lord, and as he just reminded us, he is the master of plotting, not us. I'm just willing to trust that he knows what he is doing.

I think the original point of asking us if we want to go through with the reveal was to gauge our reaction to getting more power in clan Goku and form that trait, not for us to wonder if there is some kind of conspiracy in the works.

I don't have to make an argument. It absolutely is a risk, because you are talking about taking an outsider into our territory with no warning, to meet a man who lives by himself so he doesn't have to worry about masquerade issues and to use magic on Maya that will just raise questions from her about whats going on.

That is absolutely a risk. The question is "is it worth it" which you are trying to make a case for. Except your case revolves around an utterly ridiculous conspiracy theory that I don't buy for a second. That is where we are disagreeing.

Its not that I lack imagination, its that I'm applying Occam's razor. I mean your suggesting that someone we never met before hid a baby a decade ago, before we were born, put her under an undetectable spell that no one has heard of before, left her with human parents, and arranged for her to come to our school, all to do something nefarious.

I think the billion to one odds of being a mutant are much more believable compared to that.

Also, don't forget that even if you are right, her fancy masque would be a sorcerers spell. We need a sorcerer to look at her, not a seer. We are going to the seer to ask his opinion on the vision not to check out Maya. If we go by your suggestion we are just having her tag along for no reason... Asking her to trust us again after she has already trusted us as far as she has.
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PoptartProdigy said:
So...pretty powerful. Past, future, and present are all, to the proper mindset and the right level of skill, laid totally bare.
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PoptartProdigy said:
Bommelom said:
Can Seers actually get precise information about the future, or do they only get vague prophecies/visions they have to interpret, and are all their abilities available on demand or are some of them unpredictable?

If Seers see the future, can they change the future they see or are they basically screwed if they watch something horrible?

I was also going to ask how they found out about Bardock having seer abilities (and being the first Super Saiyan), but then I realized that the answer's probably that they used Seer abilities.
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They get on-demand visions of variable precision according to metrics that they keep entirely to themselves. It's generally accepted that if you really need to find something out, a Seer can swing it, suggesting that obtaining that precision on demand is more hard than anything else.

They see the future as it presently shall be, meaning that if they can puzzle out how it comes to be, they can stop it. Self-fulfilling prophecies are a very real danger, though, so once a Seer gets an initial warning they tend to spend a while re-watching it and scrying out the intervening time in detail.

And yes, that is how they found out.
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PoptartProdigy said:
Execute/Dumbo said:
Has any Seer tried to See into the time that caused the mass earth exodus and find out who was the guy who defeated them all? Has that worked?
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They have tried, and tend to wander around with splitting headaches for days afterwards grumbling about how irritating gods are.
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Seers can manage just about anything if they really need to, except Earth's final battle- they've pulled up ancient history from as far back as Bardock after he was thrown back in time- but when they look at Earth's last day they suffer much the same reaction Kakara just had, mumble about the obnoxiously oblique voice she just met, and refuse to disclose any of the details she just saw. If they are unanimously refusing to disclose details about the Enemy, there is probably a reason.

On certain issues he has a trait which makes him recklessly commit and battle forth. We were told word-of-god that this trait just came into play here. He's not thinking straight.

The territory is explicitly described as the middle of nowhere. Beyond a few well-defined areas like the training hall, Saiyans don't even have "territory" in the sense you describe. He prefers not to need to use a masque, or, as with most seers, simply doesn't like hanging around other people, but that doesn't mean he is incapable of it when his Scion, student, and Lord tells him that there is a very good reason. He's a seer, not a magic user, she doesn't need to find out about that, and she already knows about seers anyway.

I really wish that the populace's general education included what Occam's razor really is, both historically and in its modern, rigorous conception.

Nobody's argued that the spell is undetectable. In fact, I've been arguing that we should go to the five minutes of trouble it would take to detect it. We don't know anything about her parents, and I've already given one option which covers how she could be under a custom masque with potentially mind-altered parents, why she would be located near Berra's home, and why she would have been hidden in the first place. There are presumably others. You are trying to argue that every single other explanation put together is less likely than tens-of-billions-to-one against odds. This is absurd. Just how far would you stretch this? Trillion-to-one against odds? Quadrillion-to-one against odds? How many centillions-to-one against would the odds have to be before you began to at least account for the possibility that she's not just a random spontaneous mutant on a planet full of scheming aliens on the brink of civil war?

We don't actually know that we need a sorcerer to look at her. Fully trained seers are bullshit, and might manage something as simple as looking into her past. I certainly want to have both a seer and sorcerer take a look at her to cover our bases, but I'll take what I can get in the hopes that this will be enough because she is not a random human mutant.
 
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While I don't really agree with @Lailoken on regards to how unlikely it is for Maya to be a human (since as Anaileater pointed out she could be a reincarnation like Uub), he does have a point about it being unlikely that Kakara is the first to see it. Mostly because he already quoted Poptart in regards to that.
PoptartProdigy said:
They have tried, and tend to wander around with splitting headaches for days afterwards grumbling about how irritating gods are.

You would not have.
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From what I gathered from this, it is posible that what happened to us is actually normal. I mean, from this we get that they likely get as far as we did when they try. Furthermore, if he told us this then it is known. It is entirely posible that if we say we had a visión of Earth's last day but that we were interrupted by a splitting headache before we could learn anything of the enemy, Berra's and sensei's reaction would be "Oh, so like everyone who tried". Anyways, my point is that we are not the first one who tried it and from the comments of how annoying gods are they probably got as far as we did. What we don't know, however, is if someone else managed to glimpse that specific momento in which it mentions the safeguards. With as Little as we know about him, we should work to put together what all seers have learned in the last 300 years. I am also in favor of talking to Garrick because, seriously, WTF was with that visión? Is it normal to get it at random?

On another note, I am somewhat surprised we don't have a "conspiracy theorist" trait yet...
 
Lailoken said:
I'll repeat the question: how many centillions-to-one-against would the odds of her being one have to be before you started to assume she wasn't? How astronomically unlikely is unlikely enough for you?
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Seeing as this is fiction.
It being actually impossible.
not 10000000000000000000000000000/1
not 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999/1
impossible.
 
Ridiculously Average Guy said:
Just checking, Maya is nowhere near the PL needed to, say, break a Masque. Right?
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According to the manga, Goku had the potential to become a super saiyan when his PL was about 90 thousand. Maya is in the middle 70 thousands and got there in six months.

Edit: I could have sworn it said "turn super saiyan" when I quoted it. Heck, page hasn't refreshed yet so I can see it says turn super saiyan.

And no, Masques have to be broken from outside. She could potentilly break someone else's mask I guess but if she has one she can't break it.
 
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