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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Lailoken said:
By that logic, they could just drop the masquerade altogether and introduce themselves as aliens, because the Garenhulders don't know what Saiyans are, can't do anything about it, and aren't likely to go into space. Obviously, they've instead decided that even letting the Garenhulders observe identifying information is too dangerous, possibly in case some alien scouting mission comes along and interacts with the locals. The name, "Gohan", is extremely identifying information, possibly even more so than just being a race of humanoids with tails.
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..I think this is also partially because the locals likely wouldn't be particularly happy about aliens, and while it's not like the Garenhulders could do a damn thing about it (unless/until they train their asses off until their power levels are over a billion and throw off their Saiyan overlords).

I also don't think the Masquerade is for a scouting party as much as for a fully fledged invasion (which would be noticed)/peaceful contact with the galaxy at large, not to mention that discovery of aliens is very likely to get the the Garenhulders to try to get out into space, unless we forcibly prevent them from doing so or tell them why they shouldn't (in which case any individual Garenhulder might be able to cause the destruction of the Saiyan race if they got into contact with aliens).
Lailoken said:
There is a reason that they use different names for their masques. They've been around for hundreds of years, since the times when the locals were at a medieval level of society, and more than enough time to change the naming conventions of the locals until they were uninteresting. They chose to keep them secret instead. The very fact that it is unusual to her makes it more likely that Maya will find it salient and memorable, especially during this extremely emotional flashbulb memory.
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Perhaps it's because they kept their names secret since they were unusual at the time of their arrival, and since they never used their Saiyan names in public they never changed the naming conventions? Not to mention that many hybrids (not sure if they should be called Saiyans until Lady Garla united them) might have genuinely taken on Garenhuldian (not sure what the correct adjective is) names as their only names and only started to take on Saiyan and/or Earthling names after Lady Garla unified the Saiyans.

In addition to that, there's only about three hundred thousand Saiyans while there's 13 billion Garenhulders on the planet, the Saiyans wouldn't be able to do squat to change the naming conventions unless they abolished the masquerade, took over the world and forcible gave everyone Saiyan names.
 
Bommelom said:
..I think this is also partially because the locals likely wouldn't be particularly happy about aliens, and while it's not like the Garenhulders could do a damn thing about it (unless/until they train their asses off until their power levels are over a billion and throw off their Saiyan overlords).

I also don't think the Masquerade is for a scouting party as much as for a fully fledged invasion (which would be noticed)/peaceful contact with the galaxy at large, not to mention that discovery of aliens is very likely to get the the Garenhulders to try to get out into space, unless we forcibly prevent them from doing so or tell them why they shouldn't (in which case any individual Garenhulder might be able to cause the destruction of the Saiyan race if they got into contact with aliens).

Perhaps it's because they kept their names secret since they were unusual at the time of their arrival, and since they never used their Saiyan names in public they never changed the naming conventions? Not to mention that many hybrids (not sure if they should be called Saiyans until Lady Garla united them) might have genuinely taken on Garenhuldian (not sure what the correct adjective is) names as their only names and only started to take on Saiyan and/or Earthling names after Lady Garla unified the Saiyans.

In addition to that, there's only about three hundred thousand Saiyans while there's 13 billion Garenhulders on the planet, the Saiyans wouldn't be able to do squat to change the naming conventions unless they abolished the masquerade, took over the world and forcible gave everyone Saiyan names.
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The Saiyans have been around since the illiterate locals were living medieval lifestyles where 99.9% of the population never traveled further than a day's walk from the place they were born. The Saiyans are pretty much unilaterally responsible for their no longer living that way due to their extreme distaste for innovation. If the Saiyans have changed their society that much just in secret, adding a few names in the distant past and controlling the Garenhulder access to space would be trivial. Instead, the Saiyans decided to keep their entire existence and all identifying information secret, even during the era of feuding warlords. They don't want anyone to know any identifying information about them. They don't know anything about the Enemy or how he works and are being as paranoid as possible instead of making assumptions. Berra's plan is to let ki out of the masquerade and he might be able to get away with that because ki isn't Saiyan-identifying to the galaxy at large and Maya at first glance appears to provide an independent local origin for it. The names of literal gods and their families who served as the linchpin of galactic order are a different matter. Once she knows them, even if she doesn't personally have any idea of their importance, she knows too much.
 
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I still think the simple solution is to just excuse ourselves then instant transmission to Sensei in order to have a discussion with someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Berra won't hold it against us since he can likely guess how important this is.

Sensei's out of telepathy range, sure, but he's not out of the interstellar range of instant transmission.

And after we're done, or at least asked how much we can talk about, we IT straight back. It'll take five minutes, tops.
 
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GilliamYaeger said:
I still think the simple solution is to just excuse ourselves then instant transmission to Sensei in order to have a discussion with someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Berra won't hold it against us since he can likely guess how important this is.

Sensei's out of telepathy range, sure, but he's not out of the interstellar range of instant transmission.

And after we're done, or at least asked how much we can talk about, we IT straight back. It'll take five minutes, tops.
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Just take them with her. Kakara can speak to the seer telepathically to keep it private, and he can take a glance at Maya while they're there. Maya isn't going to want Kakara to abandon her during this incredibly intimidating revelation of her insecurities, and we don't want anything this big to happen without Kakara being there. Let's take advantage of the opportunity and get Maya checked out on what everyone else appears to think is an off chance that she's not a random mutant because it costs literally nothing as long as the plan is on pause anyway.
 
Lailoken said:
Just take them with her. Kakara can speak to the seer telepathically to keep it private, and he can take a glance at Maya while they're there. Maya isn't going to want Kakara to abandon her during this incredibly intimidating revelation of her insecurities, and we don't want anything this big to happen without Kakara being there. Llet's take advantage of it and get Maya checked out on what everyone else appears to think is an off chance that she's not a random mutant because it costs literally nothing as long as the plan is on pause anyway.
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Oh, good point.

[X] Tell dad and Maya that we saw something and have to go talk to someone right now.
-[X] Instant Transmission to Sensei, bringing dad and Maya with us, talk to him about it via telepathy. Also ask about Maya - and make sure Sensei has a Masque or something on first, of course.
[X] Once we're done, Instant Transmission back to where we were and explain what just happened based on what Sensei told us.
[X] Yes (Allow the reveal)

Does this look good?
 
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GilliamYaeger said:
Oh, good point.

[X] Tell dad and Maya that we saw something and have to go talk to someone right now.
-[X] Instant Transmission to Sensei, bringing dad and Maya with us, talk to him about it via telepathy. Also ask about Maya.
[X] Once we're done, Instant Transmission back to where we were and explain what just happened based on what Sensei told us.
[X] Yes (Allow the reveal)

Does this look good?
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I'd put in something about making sure that the seer has his masque on or tail hidden and any revealing items put away before exposing Maya, might bring Berra as well and have them wait out front, but it's certainly an improvement.
 
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Lailoken said:
You mean before we teleport onto his doorstep, because entering somebody's home without knocking is kind of rude? -or, over the horizon while we hail him telepathically? -or, call him on his cell phone? -or, any of a dozen other options?
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IT has never put anyone that far away. It's always right in front of who you are teleporting to.
 
Aranfan said:
IT has never put anyone that far away. It's always right in front of who you are teleporting to.
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It's allowed her to teleport to completely uninhabited areas. They just teleported three people to the south pole. She's familiar with the area she's going to. Goku just had the manners of a brain-damaged child soldier who grew up alone in the woods.
 
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[X] Tell Maya that we Saw our great-grandfather die.
-[X] Tell Dad Everything via telepathy.
[X] Going forward tell:
-[X] Sensei Carrick
-[X] Grandma
[X] Yes (allow the reveal)

Though I might switch to the 'IT to sensei house' plan if it gets traction.
 
Aranfan said:
@PoptartProdigy

I don't suppose you could weigh in on this?
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IT, as mentioned, obviously can set you down somewhere other than "right in front of them," as Goku's use of it in combat proves. Ki is a reference point for the technique. You're using it as a lighthouse, not a bungee cord. So yes, you can set yourself down a ways away from Sensei. Now, over the distances involved you'd probably be better safe than sorry overestimating how far to set yourself down just in case you mess up, but Kakara knows to do that already.
 
GilliamYaeger said:
Soooo are you going to vote?
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Ugh, that sounds like work.

[X] Tell dad and Maya that we have to go talk to someone right now.
-[X] Instant Transmission to Sensei, bringing dad and Maya with us, talk to him about it via telepathy. Also ask about Maya - and make sure Sensei has a Masque or something on first, of course.
[X] Once we're done, decide what to explain.
[X] No (object to the reveal).
 
Wow. I am amazed how this very simple vote managed to get so complicated...

1. There is NO evidence of a Seer conspiracy. Is it really so hard to believe that we are the first person to get this vision, that you have to delve into literal conspiracy theories?

There is no need to ask Sensei's permission and no reason to assume he wouldn't give it. If your really worried about it getting out just tell Dad and no one else. Let him decide what is dangerous to tell people and what isn't. Besides, its not like we found out anything really important. We still don't know who the enemy is...

Lailoken said:
Just take them with her. Kakara can speak to the seer telepathically to keep it private, and he can take a glance at Maya while they're there. Maya isn't going to want Kakara to abandon her during this incredibly intimidating revelation of her insecurities, and we don't want anything this big to happen without Kakara being there.
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This is a terrible idea. The masquerade is a secret. What part of secret do you not understand? All it takes is Sensei deciding to take a walk outside, or some other Saiyan taking a walk nearby when we teleport in and the secrets blown.

Its too much of a risk.

You're the one complaining about Due diligence and being careful, yet you would risk the entire masquerade and Mayas life for it?

Do you really want to have to kill Maya for finding out our secret? Don't take her anywhere.

3. @Lailoken this conspiracy theory you've built around Maya is just as silly as the Seer conspiracy. Again, is it so hard to believe she's just special that you have to imagine some decade spanning trap? I think your making things way too complicated.

It's not like we are exposing her to the world, only to the saiyan population. The reveal is about showing that Lord Goku is on the job, whatever the outcome. If she is exposed as being part of some plot, what difference does it make? In that case we display our leadership by exposing it. Same outcome.

4. [] Tell Maya that we Saw our great-grandfather die.

I think this is also a bad Idea.

First it invites questions from Maya, and as was said before, anything relating to our gods and the enemy is too much information. Knowledge is dangerous. Why put Maya at risk just to sate her curiosity?

Second, It's a lie. Gohan is not our Great Grandfather. Presumably we have actual great grandfathers, neither of whom are named Gohan or got murdered. If she realizes this it will be obvious we were lying.

Maya is our friend. Do you really want to start lying to her now? For this? Especially when we don't have too. She knows we have secrets. Just tell her this is one of them.
 
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Lailoken said:
The Saiyans have been around since the illiterate locals were living medieval lifestyles where 99.9% of the population never traveled further than a day's walk from the place they were born. The Saiyans are pretty much unilaterally responsible for their no longer living that way due to their extreme distaste for innovation. If they Saiyans have changed their society that much just in secret, adding a few names in the distant past and controlling the Garenhulder access to space would be trivial. Instead, the Saiyans decided to keep their entire existence and all identifying information secret, even during the era of feuding warlords. They don't want anyone to know any identifying information about them. They don't know anything about the Enemy or how he works and are being as paranoid as possible instead of making assumptions. Berra's plan is to let ki out of the masquerade and he might be able to get away with that because ki isn't Saiyan-identifying to the galaxy at large and Maya at first glance appears to provide an independent local origin for it. The names of literal gods and their families who served as the linchpin of galactic order are a different matter. Once she knows them, even if she doesn't personally have any idea of their importance, she knows too much.
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Can I get a quote on the saiyans being "pretty much unilaterally responsible" for all innovation on Garenhuld (this isn't a rhetorical question or anything similar, I've been kinda out of the discussion in this quest for a while now)?

Secondly, I don't think Saiyans contribution to Garenhuld science was part of a conspiracy led by the Lords and Ladies in order to "uplift" the Garenhulders but rather a natural consequence of the more innovative Saiyans being more likely to go into science, since it's not like they have more advanced technology than the Garenhulders (they likely lost much of their scientific advantages during the (Saiyan) Dark Age, and today all they have on the Garenhulders is a single spaceship and some capsules which can't be replicated). In fact, I'm pretty sure the Saiyans aren't significantly controlling mundane politics (and geopolitics), though I'd like to ask @PoptartProdigy on this one. How much (if any) influence do the Saiyans usually exert over Garenhuld and the Garenhulders, and have they ever made any kind of "conspiracies" to change Garenhuld society?

And again, I can't ever imagine Maya bringing up Gohan's name unless she's being interrogated about Kakara (okay, probably not even then), and even then, it doesn't even matter. If she's not talking to the Enemy or someone specifically looking for Saiyans, whoever she's talking to isn't going to think "Aha! Saiyans!" rather than "Okay, now tell me something important" after heairng that "Someone's irrelevant greatgrandfather is named Gohan", and if she is talking to the Enemy or someone looking for Saiyans everything she already knows will be enough to cause them to investigate Garenhuld no matter if she mentions Gohan's name or not (not that I think there's any chance she'll ever do so, do you remember the names of anyone's greatgrandfathers, and if you do, would you ever mention it unless you were specifically asked about it?).

Also, @PoptartProdigy, did you ever put all the information about the Exile's customs (such as forced marriage) and the populations of both Garenhuld and the Saiyans anywhere?
 
Bommelom said:
Can I get a quote on the saiyans being "pretty much unilaterally responsible" for all innovation on Garenhuld (this isn't a rhetorical question or anything similar, I've been kinda out of the discussion in this quest for a while now)?

Secondly, I don't think Saiyans contribution to Garenhuld science was part of a conspiracy led by the Lords and Ladies in order to "uplift" the Garenhulders but rather a natural consequence of the more innovative Saiyans being more likely to go into science, since it's not like they have more advanced technology than the Garenhulders (they likely lost much of their scientific advantages during the (Saiyan) Dark Age, and today all they have on the Garenhulders is a single spaceship and some capsules which can't be replicated). In fact, I'm pretty sure the Saiyans aren't significantly controlling mundane politics (and geopolitics), though I'd like to ask @PoptartProdigy on this one. How much (if any) influence do the Saiyans usually exert over Garenhuld and the Garenhulders, and have they ever made any kind of "conspiracies" to change Garenhuld society?

And again, I can't ever imagine Maya bringing up Gohan's name unless she's being interrogated about Kakara (okay, probably not even then), and even then, it doesn't even matter. If she's not talking to the Enemy or someone specifically looking for Saiyans, whoever she's talking to isn't going to think "Aha! Saiyans!" rather than "Okay, now tell me something important" after heairng that "Someone's irrelevant greatgrandfather is named Gohan", and if she is talking to the Enemy or someone looking for Saiyans everything she already knows will be enough to cause them to investigate Garenhuld no matter if she mentions Gohan's name or not (not that I think there's any chance she'll ever do so, do you remember the names of anyone's greatgrandfathers, and if you do, would you ever mention it unless you were specifically asked about it?).

Also, @PoptartProdigy, did you ever put all the information about the Exile's customs (such as forced marriage) and the populations of both Garenhuld and the Saiyans anywhere?
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The Exiles are responsible for the sudden surge in technological growth over the last three centuries, but it's no organized effort. The Exiles have a few scraps of advanced tech, and from that determined the base principles behind more. Then the ones who disliked having to pretend to live in the Dung Ages for half their days started assuming Masques as human inventors.

Mundane politics are usually seen as beneath notice. The Senzus were technically the most powerful House in the human world in all of the Exile's history. Many Houses actually found it convenient to pose as their vassals.

I am slowly updating that information (such as engineered marriage, yes) on the Lore Screen up front. It's definitely low on the list compared to other obligations, though.
 
pkong said:
Wow. I am amazed how this very simple vote managed to get so complicated...

1. There is NO evidence of a Seer conspiracy. Is it really so hard to believe that we are the first person to get this vision, that you have to delve into literal conspiracy theories?

There is no need to ask Sensei's permission and no reason to assume he wouldn't give it. If your really worried about it getting out just tell Dad and no one else. Let him decide what is dangerous to tell people and what isn't. Besides, its not like we found out anything really important. We still don't know who the enemy is...



This is a terrible idea. The masquerade is a secret. What part of secret do you not understand? All it takes is Sensei deciding to take a walk outside, or some other Saiyan taking a walk nearby when we teleport in and the secrets blown.

Its too much of a risk.

You're the one complaining about Due diligence and being careful, yet you would risk the entire masquerade and Mayas life for it?

Do you really want to have to kill Maya for finding out our secret? Don't take her anywhere.

3. @Lailoken this conspiracy theory you've built around Maya is just as silly as the Seer conspiracy. Again, is it so hard to believe she's just special that you have to imagine some decade spanning trap? I think your making things way too complicated.

It's not like we are exposing her to the world, only to the saiyan population. The reveal is about showing that Lord Goku is on the job, whatever the outcome. If she is exposed as being part of some plot, what difference does it make? In that case we display our leadership by exposing it. Same outcome.

4. [] Tell Maya that we Saw our great-grandfather die.

I think this is also a bad Idea.

First it invites questions from Maya, and as was said before, anything relating to our gods and the enemy is too much information. Knowledge is dangerous. Why put Maya at risk just to sate her curiosity?

Second, It's a lie. Gohan is not our Great Grandfather. Presumably we have actual great grandfathers, neither of whom are named Gohan or got murdered. If she realizes this it will be obvious we were lying.

Maya is our friend. Do you really want to start lying to her now? For this? Especially when we don't have too. She knows we have secrets. Just tell her this is one of them.
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The evidence is that the alternative is that Kakara is the very first seer in the entire history of the exile to see what she did, despite pretty much everybody else inevitably trying and failing to solve the greatest mystery and threat in their entire history, and there is no indication that she is in any way special as a seer.

We've just spent a page establishing that it's trivial to have the seer check over Maya without exposing him.

Is it so hard to believe that when a GM tells you flat-out, word-of-god, that the chances of something being true are literally tens-of-billions-to-one against, they actually mean it?

The Lord's plan is to expose her to the Saiyan population, in order to expose her to the world. He wants to use her as a way to establish a cover for the Saiyans using their ki and openly identifying as exceptional on the planet in preparation for leaving it.

If you can't imagine a plot which would have serious repercussions for an uncontrolled exposure, that's your lack of imagination. The most likely explanation for the existence of Maya is that somebody, likely quite powerful given the nature of her masque, is committing a crime which carries a sentence of death, and this whole plan is to tell them in no uncertain terms that the jig is up and they need to pull out all the stops. If that somebody turns out to be the grandmaster Sorceress with a penchant for custom seals who is Berra's close ally and who Berra helped usurp the leadership of half the population in an act which almost precipitated a civil war and has precipitated an active rebellion on the eve of an alien invasion, it could easily be a really big problem.



Bommelom said:
Can I get a quote on the saiyans being "pretty much unilaterally responsible" for all innovation on Garenhuld (this isn't a rhetorical question or anything similar, I've been kinda out of the discussion in this quest for a while now)?

Secondly, I don't think Saiyans contribution to Garenhuld science was part of a conspiracy led by the Lords and Ladies in order to "uplift" the Garenhulders but rather a natural consequence of the more innovative Saiyans being more likely to go into science, since it's not like they have more advanced technology than the Garenhulders (they likely lost much of their scientific advantages during the (Saiyan) Dark Age, and today all they have on the Garenhulders is a single spaceship and some capsules which can't be replicated). In fact, I'm pretty sure the Saiyans aren't significantly controlling mundane politics (and geopolitics), though I'd like to ask @PoptartProdigy on this one. How much (if any) influence do the Saiyans usually exert over Garenhuld and the Garenhulders, and have they ever made any kind of "conspiracies" to change Garenhuld society?

And again, I can't ever imagine Maya bringing up Gohan's name unless she's being interrogated about Kakara (okay, probably not even then), and even then, it doesn't even matter. If she's not talking to the Enemy or someone specifically looking for Saiyans, whoever she's talking to isn't going to think "Aha! Saiyans!" rather than "Okay, now tell me something important" after heairng that "Someone's irrelevant greatgrandfather is named Gohan", and if she is talking to the Enemy or someone looking for Saiyans everything she already knows will be enough to cause them to investigate Garenhuld no matter if she mentions Gohan's name or not (not that I think there's any chance she'll ever do so, do you remember the names of anyone's greatgrandfathers, and if you do, would you ever mention it unless you were specifically asked about it?).

Also, @PoptartProdigy, did you ever put all the information about the Exile's customs (such as forced marriage) and the populations of both Garenhuld and the Saiyans anywhere?
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Pops just reiterated it, but the point isn't that there was some conspiracy, it's that Saiyans have had huge effects on the local culture purely from the shadows. If they'd started using their names back when 99.9% of the population never traveled more than a day's walk from where they were born everybody would have just assumed that they were simply foreigners with foreign names and assimilated them until it wasn't at all odd to hear one of the names in the modern world. They didn't do that. They hid their names.

This is an enemy which can read the bloodline potential of a statue, and most Saiyans don't know even that. They're being properly paranoid and refusing to make any assumptions they don't have a really compelling reason to. Regardless of whether or not Maya knowing something which will tell virtually anybody in the galaxy at large, "SAIYANS!!!", in big, bold letters is actually dangerous, nobody is going to be comfortable with leaving her out of the fold with that knowledge in her head, which pretty much kills Berra's plan to use her very specific knowledge to excise a small, well-defined piece of the masquerade while establishing his authority in the process.
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
I am slowly updating that information (such as engineered marriage, yes) on the Lore Screen up front. It's definitely low on the list compared to other obligations, though.
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Bah, I'll call it what I want to, damnit.

Also, curious, what would happen if someone who knew about the Saiyans got a boyfriend/girlfriend and wanted to marry said person?
 
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