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Dragon Ball: After the End

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I'm honestly failing to see a way for diplomacy to work right now. She's basically won, and even if we somehow talked her down no way in hell am I seeing the others letting her live.

Yammar's chains are the same as ours. @PoptartProdigy do we know if he knows how to break the chains (i.e. the method Future Jakarta told us about)? Because as is telling him about that then continuing with the plan could be a good idea.
 
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Karnax626 said:
I'm honestly failing to see a way for diplomacy to work right now. She's basically won, and even if we somehow talked her down no way in hell am I seeing the others letting her live.
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we lose nothing by trying diplomacy before going for the standard plan.

Also it's not really a victory for her when, at the end of the day, everyone still hates her and she has no realistic hope of that ever changing if she continues as she did until now.

The others would probably listen to us. It would at least be easier than convincing Dandeer herself.

There are a lot of good arguments for keeping her alive

1) we can (i assume) safely seal her with Spirit Saiyan fueled magic, so that she can only use her magic when we allow her too (basically we remove-reapply the seal whenever we need her to actually cast spells, or have Dandelor create a more complex seal that allows her to use magic only when explicitely told to by us or one of the other rulers.

2)she's the best saiyan sorcerer bar none. We need better ki wards. Have her work on it, and in a few years we might have ssj2. Until now she had no real reason to research them, as giving the super saiyans more power would only bring her more problems, we can change that

3) She could, under STRICT SURVEILANCE, train other sorcerers. As already said, she knows more about magic that anyone else, with only Dandelor coming close

4) Yammar and Apra are both believers. If we point out to how even Penitent Vegeta was once a monster, they can't really reject this without being hypocrites

5)IF (and i admit it's still a big IF) we succeed, they simply owe us to respect the deal we made. They ALL owe us this much, for more than one reason, from Berra not listening to us to Jaffur owing us both his and Jaron's freedom AND life.
 
I really think we should just eat the loss and escape.

I don't believe there's any chance of Kakara convincing Dandeer to back down, due to the fact that we just tried to take her down violently and the sheer hate between them, which I doubt Kakara could hide. If we had tried talking her into undoing the sealing from the beginning, it could have worked, but now, when we're only resorting to words after we no longer have the ability to use force? I don't think so.

Killing her is also out, as Kakara is going to hesitate, which means one of Dandeer's puppets will intercept her.
Pittauro said:
we lose nothing by trying diplomacy before going for the standard plan.
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We potentially lose the element of surprise, as well as the the certainty that it'd work (that we got from using Future Sight to talk with Future-Kakara).
 
I have this talk in my head about how Kakara is disappointed in herself, in that she hasn't managed to save Dandeer from herself, admitting her own anger at Dandeer stopped her from doing the right thing. Bring up her lying about what happened about the Sealing, and the thousands she killed, implying/suggesting that the reason Kakara has hated her so much is because of those.

Having Kakara bring up stuff like the rebels and traitors, about how she suspected Dandeer was behind it, but given her ability to erase knowledge, never delved too deeply, because she suspected that anyone who could prove it would have their knowledge erased(freak Dandeer out by how much Kakara knows).

How Dandeer threw everything away, and now has damned herself to hollow lie that won't give her what she actually wants, and that when she dies she'll go straight to hell. How Kakara would have fought tooth and nail to ensure that Dandeer would have received actual help rather then just be executed, in hopes of reforming Dandeer, so she could actually go to heaven, dropping the bombshell that Kakara has been there and talked to them.

All the while dropping details, like what concept the shackles use, then at the very end, when Dandeer almost certainly doesn't back down, reveal how to break said concept with Ki, so Yammar can break out.
 
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Hey guys, instead of pointing to the Sorcerer massacre and open that potential can of worms, how about we point out that we didn't kill Dazarel, despite him coming to kill our entire race and him having destroyed planets (if you kill off the people living there, it more or less counts) before, and from a purely objective standpoint, nothing Dandeer's done comes close to 'wiped out a sentient race' in terms of sheer horribleness. Dandeer actually has intentions more benevolent than 'get stronger by eating people with powerful QI' as well, so nobody can say that she's too far gone for us to not be willing to at least try.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Hey guys, instead of pointing to the Sorcerer massacre and open that potential can of worms, how about we point out that we didn't kill Dazarel, despite him coming to kill our entire race and him having destroyed planets (if you kill off the people living there, it more or less counts) before, and from a purely objective standpoint, nothing Dandeer's done comes close to 'wiped out a sentient race' in terms of sheer horribleness. Dandeer actually has intentions more benevolent than 'get stronger by eating people with powerful QI' as well, so nobody can say that she's too far gone for us to not be willing to at least try.
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I prefer the argument about Vegeta the Penitent, but this could work as well.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Hey guys, instead of pointing to the Sorcerer massacre and open that potential can of worms, how about we point out that we didn't kill Dazarel, despite him coming to kill our entire race and him having destroyed planets (if you kill off the people living there, it more or less counts) before, and from a purely objective standpoint, nothing Dandeer's done comes close to 'wiped out a sentient race' in terms of sheer horribleness. Dandeer actually has intentions more benevolent than 'get stronger by eating people with powerful QI' as well, so nobody can say that she's too far gone for us to not be willing to at least try.
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I'm not sure why mentioning it is a bad thing?
 
Redemption speech and debilitating strikes are good and all, but why don't we just accept our loss and go for the training montage dragon ball style that is being presented to us?

Even if we somehow reverse this clusterfuck in a technical win for us (witch I and the QM doubt it's even possible), we would still be a sayan witch can't safely train her potential transformations outside of super sayan I and super sayan monkey.

If we take the spiritual training instead we get the potential of obtaining and safely train all the trasformation tiers up to including super sayan blue and super monkey sayan blue (witch is probably a reskin of super sayan IV). Maybe even gain an op dragonball skill or two or make one of our own if we are lucky.

I don't see what the problem we could have with this apart that we kinda have to accept that we "lost" this one time.
 
Tarantio said:
Redemption speech and debilitating strikes are good and all, but why don't we just accept our loss and go for the training montage dragon ball style that is being presented to us?

Even if we somehow reverse this clusterfuck in a technical win for us (witch I and the QM doubt it's even possible), we would still be a sayan witch can't safely train her potential transformations outside of super sayan I and super sayan monkey.

If we take the spiritual training instead we get the potential of obtaining and safely train all the trasformation tiers up to including super sayan blue and super monkey sayan blue (witch is probably a reskin of super sayan IV). Maybe even gain an op dragonball skill or two or make one of our own if we are lucky.

I don't see what the problem we could have with this apart that we kinda have to accept that we "lost" this one time.
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We can't unlock transformations as a shade. Nor can we become more powerful.

It'd be increasing our skills/knowledge instead.

And what's stopping us from transitioning from the redemption speech to escape? Especially we do like I suggest, and give hints to Yammar on how to break the chains.
 
As I recall, Future!Kakara's plan involves getting the Senzus free. The Senzus have a spaceship. It is not inconceivable that we could physically escape this way
 
Does she know that Jaron was seriously contemplating suicide? Seems a pertinent piece of information if being loved is as important to her as was implied.

Even if she doesn't heel-face turn, it'll hopefully put her on the back foot and at least push her to improve the situation if we run.
 
Gore17 said:
We can't unlock transformations as a shade. Nor can we become more powerful.

It'd be increasing our skills/knowledge instead.

And what's stopping us from transitioning from the redemption speech to escape? Especially we do like I suggest, and give hints to Yammar on how to break the chains.
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We can't unlock transformations that we don't meet the PL requirements for - if there are any that don't require more than 5% of our capped PL, we could feasibly unlock them. If. I also like your speech, except why not just telepathy Yammar to tell him outright?

I think we should obliquely tell Yammar via telepathy that he's sorcerously compromised, and start telling him how to maybe break it - Kakara doesn't know he's un-whammied. He'll tell her he is, at which point we can tell him to wait until we give the signal, and then break out using the same method Future!Kakara gave us.

Then we have to decide what to do next. I'm personally partial to attempting a Willpower Push to Sense the incoming invasion fleet and IT over to them - with Yammar, if possible. If that fails, then... I guess we suck it up and go the Shade route.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I also like your speech, except why not just telepathy Yammar to tell him outright?
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Yammar can't use telepathy. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that Kakara can't either.
Grigori said:
Does she know that Jaron was seriously contemplating suicide? Seems a pertinent piece of information if being loved is as important to her as was implied.

Even if she doesn't heel-face turn, it'll hopefully put her on the back foot and at least push her to improve the situation if we run.
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Ah, good point.
 
Gore17 said:
Yammar can't use telepathy. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that Kakara can't either.
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Hmmm, you're right.

We could power up and say it to him quickly? Do the restraints prevent powering up?

Or alternatively, if we successfully Sense the invasion fleet, we could just immediately break free ourselves, grab him and IT away - we can free him when we're on a ship far, far away from here.
 
So the shade thing is different from Jaffur's mental body, I didn't know that, still it seem to me that skill training with actual masters of the art is a pretty sweet deal if we can get to jiji and the others.

Stalling for 2-3 updates to then be forced to do it anyway seem a little disappointing anyway, I just want to return to the good stuff the fastest we can instead of struggling potentially for months with the fact we didn't think things through on a strategic level before forcing the fight.
 
Tarantio said:
So the shade thing is different from Jaffur's mental body, I didn't know that, still it seem to me that skill training with actual masters of the art is a pretty sweet deal if we can get to jiji and the others.

Stalling for 2-3 updates to then be forced to do it anyway seem a little disappointing anyway, I just want to return to the good stuff the fastest we can instead of struggling potentially for months with the fact we didn't think things through on a strategic level before forcing the fight.
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The way I see it, if we give the speech, best case, Dandeer repents, we unlock Elite Communication, all is good. Medium case, Dandeer doesn't, but we've managed to message Yammar through it, and so things are slightly better/easier.* Worse case, we implement plan "raise chaos" immediately.

*Best case is that we get Yammar to go with the Senzu's. With a SSJ loose, Dandeer won't be able to push forward her "perfect world" spell.
Deathbybunnies said:
Hence the Willpower Push, and hence why the outcome is in question.
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Well, besides question whether it's possible such a large push is possible, there's the bigger issue of such a massive PL would break the SSJ2 restriction.
 
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