Dragon Ball: After the End

[Deathbybunnies]

The way I see it, if we give the speech, best case, Dandeer repents, we unlock Elite Communication, all is good. Medium case, Dandeer doesn't, but we've managed to message Yammar through it, and so things are slightly better/easier.* Worse case, we implement plan "raise chaos" immediately.

*Best case is that we get Yammar to go with the Senzu's. With a SSJ loose, Dandeer won't be able to push forward her "perfect world" spell.

Well, besides question whether it's possible such a large push is possible, there's the bigger issue of such a massive PL would break the SSJ2 restriction.

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It's not a matter of PL. We made a Willpower Push to use Multiform beyond our current limits, which isn't a matter of PL - why wouldn't this be the same? @PoptartProdigy would a Willpower Push to sense the fleet require pushing for a PL capable of that, and if not would the check be as difficult as if we'd done that?

 

[Gore17]

It's not a matter of PL. We made a Willpower Push to use Multiform beyond our current limits, which isn't a matter of PL - why wouldn't this be the same? @PoptartProdigy would a Willpower Push to sense the fleet require pushing for a PL capable of that, and if not would the check be as difficult as if we'd done that?

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Except, IIRC how far we can detect things with our Ki Sense is, to a degree, a function of our PL, while how many times we can use Multiform is like, you said, an independent factor.

 

[Pittauro]

Hence the Willpower Push, and hence why the outcome is in question.

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the fleet has stealth ship that can hide ki though. We'd probably need machine sense

Stalling for 2-3 updates to then be forced to do it anyway seem a little disappointing anyway, I just want to return to the good stuff the fastest we can instead of struggling potentially for months with the fact we didn't think things through on a strategic level before forcing the fight.

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The way I see it, if we give the speech, best case, Dandeer repents, we unlock Elite Communication, all is good. Medium case, Dandeer doesn't, but we've managed to message Yammar through it, and so things are slightly better/easier.* Worse case, we implement plan "raise chaos" immediately.

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All things considered i don't think Kakara talking Dandeer down is that much more unbelievable than learning the Genkidama and mastering Spirit Saiyan mid combat, at the very last possible moment. And even a moment of doubt now, if we fail, could lead to a change of heart in the future once she sees that she isn't happy even when she's won.

All things considered she is NOT worse than Penitent Vegeta once was, and he changed.

 

[Bakkasama]

I want to point out that, according to Yammar, the greatest advantage we have is that nobody expects Kakara to have a plan as soon as she wakes up and that attempting communications first throws that away. Also that the super saiyans would protect her from attempts to kill her if she doesn't have a shield up already and that with 4 on her side there are enough to restrain us and give her a Senzu at the same time if we go non-lethal.

I think the future plan is the best we have. THAT SAID, if people insist on trying communication checks first, do take into consideration that she is in a winning position so talking about giving mercy would be less effective and run counter to Yammar's speech in the interlude which are the closest to a confirmed hit on her we have.

Her levers as we know are her faith, that she wants to be loved, that she wants a perfect family and that she is prideful as a sorceress and a mother, also that she knows best. If she thinks people want to kill her, assurances that they won't won't work.

From this, the most likely hits we can get by talking are the Jaron suicide attempt and how not only do people not love her but she actively harms them and destroy everything she loves with her actions and the fact that we actually talked to Gohan and the Ancestors (with our learning genki dama as proof) and they think she must be stopped.

That said, I am voting for ghost Kakara.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

All things considered she is NOT worse than Penitent Vegeta once was, and he changed.

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He didn't change in the span of a conversation, or at the moment of his apparent triumph. The situations aren't even remotely comparable.

Except, IIRC how far we can detect things with our Ki Sense is, to a degree, a function of our PL, while how many times we can use Multiform is like, you said, an independent factor.

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I would be downright astounded if the DC for a Willpower Push to briefly improve our Ki Sensing range wasn't significantly smaller than the DC to increase our PL to do the same.

Also, one thing nobody appears to have commented on: Jaffur appears aware enough of his hatred for Dandeer that his bonds are actively preventing him from insulting her, and can comment on this fact. He isn't blocked from recognising he's under her control! If we can figure out what concept he's bound by, we can tell him to focus on the opposite concept and he'll be free! I don't think we can break him out ourselves, but I think it's possible to give him the tools to break himself out here. At the very least, we should tell him about this before we disappear, so he can work on it in the background.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy could something like this possibly work? If you can't/won't tell, does Kakara think there is at least a chance?

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Y'know, on second thought I think I ought not comment on odds of success.

@PoptartProdigy, could you run through the use of willpower pushes in diplomacy for us again?

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Added to Rules Screen.

I'm honestly failing to see a way for diplomacy to work right now. She's basically won, and even if we somehow talked her down no way in hell am I seeing the others letting her live.

Yammar's chains arw the same as ours. @PoptartProdigy do we know if he knows how to break the chains (i.e. the method Future Jakarta told us about)? Because as is telling him about that then continuing with the plan could be a good idea.

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You do not know.

...and now i have a question.

@PoptartProdigy if we tried to talk Dandeer down like in my plan, and ONLY if we fail try Future Kakara's plan, would we still get the Sight bonus?

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Depends on how/if you change the situation. Even in failure you might do something, after all.

It's not a matter of PL. We made a Willpower Push to use Multiform beyond our current limits, which isn't a matter of PL - why wouldn't this be the same? @PoptartProdigy would a Willpower Push to sense the fleet require pushing for a PL capable of that, and if not would the check be as difficult as if we'd done that?

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Added to Rules Screen.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Added to Rules Screen.

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Willpower pushes can also be used on non-combat checks. The exact mechanics of this differ from check to check. Boosting ki sensing in this manner is very difficult; you can slap an additional +30 onto a check, but the DC is 130.

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So that's us rolling against a DC 130 Willpower Push check, with a success giving us a +30 on our Ki Sensing Check?

It's probably still worth doing since we can do it while restrained (Kakara's rolling at a +54 on willpower checks right now) but geeze.

 

[Quest]

Current bonuses. Bolded the ones I think may be relevant.

Major


SSJ2 "Control the Transformation" check.
Breaking out of a bad system.
Transcendence check.
Making sure the next major social development with Maya goes smoothly.
Sizing up an opponent.
Introspection.
Maya interaction.
Avoiding bad endings.


Minor


Utter bullshit.
Developing subliminal messaging.
Sealing reversal failure mitigation.
Mental health checks forced by the use of lethal force.
Supporting magical allies.
Dealing with Vegeta.
Willpower checks.
Dealing with the Legendary Super Saiyan.
Healing checks.
Time travel.
The climactic moment of the Unsealing.
Talking down opponents.

 

[thamuzz]

Something occurs to me: Dandeer probably isn't aware that Jaron was suicidal living with her. Learning that, possibly with a deadpan confirmation from Jaffur, could seriously shake her/build on Yammar's taunts.

"So, you've won. I've got a question for you: how are you planning on keeping Jaron/Jaffur from killing themselves to get away from you?"

 

[Bommelom]

I don't think physically escaping alone is significantly better than escaping as a Shade, and it's a lot more risky.

Our only real benefit will be that we'll be able to try to train for Perfect Multiform, but getting an Elite skill isn't something that can be done on demand.

Meanwhile, Dandeer will be afraid of a Kakara that escapes into space and probably take precautions to prevent us from returning and ending her reign. If we're Sealed, on the other hand, she won't be expecting Shade Kakara to return at all, thus giving us the moment of surprise when we decide to act.

There's also the fact that teleporting to the invasion fleet in Saiyan form is risky, since if anyone sees us as a Saiyan we're fucked, and might involve a fight with Tamar which Kakara would not be able to handle right now.

Escaping with Yammar is potentially advantageous, but at this point I'd rather be sure that we save Dandelor than to take a risk in order to save Yammar as well.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I don't think physically escaping alone is significantly better than escaping as a Shade, and it's a lot more risky.

Our only real benefit will be that we'll be able to try to train for Perfect Multiform, but getting an Elite skill isn't something that can be done on demand.

Meanwhile, Dandeer will be afraid of a Kakara that escapes into space and probably take precautions to prevent us from returning and ending her reign. If we're Sealed, on the other hand, she won't be expecting Shade Kakara to return at all, thus giving us the moment of surprise when we decide to act.

There's also the fact that teleporting to the invasion fleet in Saiyan form is risky, since if anyone sees us as a Saiyan we're fucked, and might involve a fight with Tamar which Kakara would not be able to handle right now.

Escaping with Yammar is potentially advantageous, but at this point I'd rather be sure that we save Dandelor than to take a risk in order to save Yammar as well.

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I disagree entirely. Going out into the wider Galaxy with our entire PL is far better than going out with a 20th, in terms of both safety and Getting Shit Done. That it allows Perfect Multiform is honestly just a nice "extra" on top of that.

Even as pummelled as Kakara is, after this little nap she's entirely capable of handling Tamar, who I very much doubt even reaches a PL of 100 Million. (If we were in the same situation as a Shade, it would be suicide, as an example.)

I don't think grabbing Yammar is a significant imposition on our ability to IT there? Either we can Sense it and can grab him whilst the other SSJs are reacting/trying to secure Dandeer, or we can't.

Finally - and I'll admit, I hadn't brought this up yet - I am terrified of the possibility that getting Sealed with a Shade on the loose is going to lead to Karen becoming a divergent personality like Jaron is. The concept horrifies me, and I sincerely hope we can avoid this.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

People are currently arguing between sticking with the plan, trying to get bonuses to go with the plan, and trying to talk Dandeer down. I've also seen some people advocating for a hell-for-leather approach to things.

Folks with speeches: I'm opening soon. Tag me with a write-in to get it featured in the unlock.

Same for other write-ins, really.

 

[kitsune9]

Current bonuses. Bolded the ones I think may be relevant.

Major


SSJ2 "Control the Transformation" check.
Breaking out of a bad system.
Transcendence check.
Making sure the next major social development with Maya goes smoothly.
Sizing up an opponent.
Introspection.
Maya interaction.
Avoiding bad endings.


Minor


Utter bullshit.
Developing subliminal messaging.
Sealing reversal failure mitigation.
Mental health checks forced by the use of lethal force.
Supporting magical allies.
Dealing with Vegeta.
Willpower checks.
Dealing with the Legendary Super Saiyan.
Healing checks.
Time travel.
The climactic moment of the Unsealing.
Talking down opponents.

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Don't we also have something like hated that acts as a malice.

 

[chryssalideater]

Ok so shonen speech suggestions:

• No one loves you
• This isn't how to get a real family
• Vegeta the Penitent
• Darzael
• Jaron on the brink of suicide
• We aren't going to kill you/too important to kill

EDIT: BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING, apologize for not trying to talk with her sooner. We were angry/afraid and it was our bad.
Even if not strictly true, Dandeer has that opinion on children being obedient and Shit, so opening with an apology will disarm her.

I think we should be creating a thematic narrative here like cops do in interrogations.

If you surrender:

• The world will still forgive you
• You won't die
• Vegeta still found a family
• You arent alone
• You were just scared and wanted control
• You were just trying to do what you thought was best

If you don't surrender:

• Heartless monster
• Letting Jaron die
• No one will ever truly love you
• You'll die alone

@PoptartProdigy to be clear, we can transition into the Seer plan if this doesn't work right? Because it's really not worth it if we can't.

 

[Bommelom]

I disagree entirely. Going out into the wider Galaxy with our entire PL is far better than going out with a 20th, in terms of both safety and Getting Shit Done. That it allows Perfect Multiform is honestly just a nice "extra" on top of that.

Even as pummelled as Kakara is, after this little nap she's entirely capable of handling Tamar, who I very much doubt even reaches a PL of 100 Million. (If we were in the same situation as a Shade, it would be suicide, as an example.)

I don't think grabbing Yammar is a significant imposition on our ability to IT there? Either we can Sense it and can grab him whilst the other SSJs are reacting/trying to secure Dandeer, or we can't.

Finally - and I'll admit, I hadn't brought this up yet - I am terrified of the possibility that getting Sealed with a Shade on the loose is going to lead to Karen becoming a divergent personality like Jaron is. The concept horrifies me, and I sincerely hope we can avoid this.

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In terms of safety, especially in terms of staying unnoticed by anyone who might figure out we're secretly a Saiyan, being a Shade really sounds much better, since only other Seers will be able to see us.

Also, even if Tamar is weak enough that we can beat him even exhausted and Masqued, doing so is still going to get us attention.

Trying to get Yammar with us is harder than just escaping because it means that we'll have to free him and/or can't use him as a distraction.

..I agree that Karen turning into a separate personality wouldn't be optimal, though. Hopefully being outside of our body during the Sealing would mean that we could figure out a way to merge with her (getting both set of memories) upon returning.

 

[Wiadi]

The concept horrifies me, and I sincerely hope we can avoid this.

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Why's that, out of curiosity? We're already going to need to sort out a way to get Jaron a body of his own, so we could just do the same for Karen (assuming she even does become a separate person) once we come back. What's so terrible about acquiring a new sibling?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Something occurs to me: Dandeer probably isn't aware that Jaron was suicidal living with her. Learning that, possibly with a deadpan confirmation from Jaffur, could seriously shake her/build on Yammar's taunts.

"So, you've won. I've got a question for you: how are you planning on keeping Jaron/Jaffur from killing themselves to get away from you?"

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Thaaat might work/help?

And frankly, even if it doesn't work, I'd honestly rather have Dandeer aware of that side effect of her spells. She might modify her spells accordingly, which reduces the risk of her mind control causing a mass suicide epidemic before we find a way to break her influence over the planet.

It's like, if she's going to be witch-queen of Garenhuld for a while, I want to at least minimize how bad an outcome that is.

Ok so shonen speech suggestions:

• No one loves you
• This isn't how to get a real family
• Vegeta the Penitent
• Darzael
• Jaron on the brink of suicide
• We aren't going to kill you/too important to kill

EDIT: BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING, apologize for not trying to talk with her sooner. We were angry/afraid and it was our bad.
Even if not strictly true, Dandeer has that opinion on children being obedient and Shit, so opening with an apology will disarm her.

I think we should be creating a thematic narrative here like cops do in interrogations.

If you surrender:

• The world will still forgive you
• You won't die
• Vegeta still found a family
• You arent alone
• You were just scared and wanted control
• You were just trying to do what you thought was best

If you don't surrender:

• Heartless monster
• Letting Jaron die
• No one will ever truly love you
• You'll die alone

@PoptartProdigy to be clear, we can transition into the Seer plan if this doesn't work right? Because it's really not worth it if we can't.

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I like this; this is the first steps to us having a plan involving Communications.'

EDIT:

As in, a plan for how to use it, not just a plan TO use it.

 

[Gore17]

Thaaat might work/help?

And frankly, even if it doesn't work, I'd honestly rather have Dandeer aware of that side effect of her spells. She might modify her spells accordingly, which reduces the risk of her mind control causing a mass suicide epidemic before we find a way to break her influence over the planet.

It's like, if she's going to be witch-queen of Garenhuld for a while, I want to at least minimize how bad an outcome that is.

I like this; this is the first steps to us having a plan involving Communications.'

EDIT:

As in, a plan for how to use it, not just a plan TO use it.

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What was my post on the previous page, chopped liver?

 

[chryssalideater]

Ok so I'm thinking the following order:

1. Apologize for not talking before (disarms Dandeer, makes her more receptive)
2. "The day of the sealing was the worst day of my life." Mostly accurate, and we can dive into how wrong it seemed and how helpless we felt (puts the outside context of Dandeer's actions into sharp relief)
3. "This isn't what you want."(The ultimate goal of this conversation; convince her of this and we've effectively won.
4. Go into how the Sealed people don't love her, aren't happy, won't lead good lives ( Builds off what Yammar was saying, reinforces the narrative.)
5. When she attempts to counter, yell "Jaron tried to commit suicide!" (Amps up intensity, breaks the view that the sealing is keeping her family safe.)
6. "I don't think you're a monster."(Sad to say it, but I'm starting to believe that.) Push the "just trying to keep her family safe" angle, but emphasize this isnt how to do it.
7. "There's still a chance for redemption, no matter what you've done ." (Vegeta the penitent, Darzeral, etc. the 'no matter what' gives her an out for the sorcerer genocide.)
8. "If you surrender now, you can still have a happy ending." (No one will kill her, still have a place in this world. Important not to sugarcoat things, but provide that day of hope.)
9. "If you don't surrender, you're a monster" (The second half, emphasize all the bad things that will happen with the sealing, being out the suicide if it hasn't been brought out yet.)
10. "The choice is yours." Emphasize that Dandeer has the opportunity to choose in this situation, while making it very clear what the morally right choice is. Will hopefully play into her control complex, while also phrasing the choice in terms of "Good end" and "Bad end" in our favor.

Thoughts?

What was my post on the previous page, chopped liver?

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Listen man, we're making a stew here. Any meat helps, chopped liver or not.

 

[Wiadi]

Thoughts?

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Step 10 seems like a dangerous note to end on - that sort of language is going to trip all sorts of internal alarms for Dandeer, making her much more prepared for our subsequent breakout attempt if the plan fails.

Also, recall part of what set us so heavily against Dandeer in the first place: the notion that Kakara, a child, could know better than her is simply inconceivable. As such I'm skeptical of the effectiveness of a speech that tries to place us in any way as superior/granting her mercy/etc.

 

[Cariyaga]

Step 10 seems like a dangerous note to end on - that sort of language is going to trip all sorts of internal alarms for Dandeer, making her much more prepared for our subsequent breakout attempt if the plan fails.

Also, recall part of what set us so heavily against Dandeer in the first place: the notion that Kakara, a child, could know better than her is simply inconceivable. As such I'm skeptical of the effectiveness of a speech that tries to place us in any way as superior/granting her mercy/etc.

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Yeah, we don't want to do that.

I'd say cut steps 9 and 10, and work an apology in there somewhere, about how sorry Kakara is that she never saw how lonely Dandeer is.

 

[Bakkasama]

Also, she hates us and thinks we hate her. She also thinks she won so anything we say now she will think we say because we lost.

 

[Gore17]

People are currently arguing between sticking with the plan, trying to get bonuses to go with the plan, and trying to talk Dandeer down. I've also seen some people advocating for a hell-for-leather approach to things.

Folks with speeches: I'm opening soon. Tag me with a write-in to get it featured in the unlock.

Same for other write-ins, really.

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Too tired righr now.

 

[Simon_Jester]

What was my post on the previous page, chopped liver?

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My apologies; I admit I overlooked it. As a gesture of recompense, I will make sure forward your idea to Poptart since you're too tired.

My main problem with it is that it seems calculated to cause Dandeer to have a breakdown, but that leading with "this is why we hate you" may well just cause her to cut the whole thing off and say "fuckit, casting my spell!"

Chryssalid's plan, IF we want to go through with it, has the advantage that Dandeer wouldn't expect us to say a kind word to her.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I have this talk in my head about how Kakara is disappointed in herself, in that she hasn't managed to save Dandeer from herself, admitting her own anger at Dandeer stopped her from doing the right thing. Bring up her lying about what happened about the Sealing, and the thousands she killed, implying/suggesting that the reason Kakara has hated her so much is because of those.

Having Kakara bring up stuff like the rebels and traitors, about how she suspected Dandeer was behind it, but given her ability to erase knowledge, never delved too deeply, because she suspected that anyone who could prove it would have their knowledge erased(freak Dandeer out by how much Kakara knows).

How Dandeer threw everything away, and now has damned herself to hollow lie that won't give her what she actually wants, and that when she dies she'll go straight to hell. How Kakara would have fought tooth and nail to ensure that Dandeer would have received actual help rather then just be executed, in hopes of reforming Dandeer, so she could actually go to heaven, dropping the bombshell that Kakara has been there and talked to them.

All the while dropping details, like what concept the shackles use, then at the very end, when Dandeer almost certainly doesn't back down, reveal how to break said concept with Ki, so Yammar can break out.

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@PoptartProdigy : this is an alternate plan by @Gore17 to speechify and use Communications.