Reaching out to Khan is completely beneficial even if we don't get fusion power out of it. It's simply better to have him as an ally than as a competitor or enemy. Khan is a forward keeping business man who keeps his word out of pragmatism so it would be pretty good to just set up an alliance so we don't step on each other's toes.
If we do do that, I'd rather wait until the New Year to try that, so we can get on good terms with Olympia and recruit Juniper. Khan's not going anywhere. However, this opinion is likely to change considering there are still many interludes to go
 
Maybe it would be different for getting the martial second action with shego but I think people are making this way more complicated and divisive than it needs to be.
Some joint products give stuff to both parties by default, like research both parties can benefit from, so both parties have a reason to do them. Others solely benefit one party, so the other party needs some other reason to get involved.

Shego doesn't strike me as the type to do it in the name of jolly cooperation, so if we wanted her help on this thing, some benefit to her would need to be produced.

I just find it unlikely that the collaboration will let us use a King like a hero unit.
 
If we do do that, I'd rather wait until the New Year to try that, so we can get on good terms with Olympia and recruit Juniper. Khan's not going anywhere. However, this opinion is likely to change considering there are still many interludes to go
Well, one of our biggest bargaining chips in setting up a partnership is the offer to help him with high-DC fusion research, and that offer will cease to be meaningful if he either succeeds in developing fusion or abandons the project as impractical. So... maybe, but we're sort of on a clock here.
 
Furthermore, the Wasteland quest is likely to be relatively safe in that the most obvious dangers are mostly environmental hazards (which we can prepare him against) and AUTO's robots, which in general are going to default to nonlethal options unless extremely provoked.
Am i the only one that remembers this scene


IC neither we or Shego know about AUTO. We just know that a large swath of America is a junk pile because of something extremely freaky. IC the wasteland could be hiding a bill level threat.
 
You're missing MCP/Encom, King Candy, Monsters Inc, and Tomorrowland.
I do think putting Doris at tier 3 is underselling it. Doris does have its broken time machine and is successfully contesting Tomorrowland, which is arguably the most technologically advanced faction. Bill also probably deserves his own tier. Unlike the other tier 1s, he's either contained in the triangle, or he's out and nigh omnipotent.
Yeah, updated some of those, I'll do some more updates later. I put Doris as tier 3 because to me the cutoff for a Tier 2 position is "post-scarcity economy", but she's definitely fairly high on the Tier 3 scale and edging into Tier 2. Tomorrowland is a solid Tier 2 in that it doesn't need to worry about it's surroundings at all and can safely ignore everybody else unless poked.

Bill could possibly get a "Tier 0" for himself, but the thing with Bill is that, as long as he is contained, he isn't that much of a threat to people outside of Oregon. While contained, Bill is technically a Tier 2, the difference is that he wants OUT, and is willing to affect things outside of his territor to make it happen. That's why he lands at Tier 1, if he was free he'd be "Threat Tier: Yes".

Hmm, have to disagree on Auto being in this tier. I'd put him in Tier 4 probably. The BnL wasteland is a large splotch on the map but most of it is just inert polluted wasteland. The single starship of the Axiom and its security forces are the only assets AUTO has. Their grasp on the wasteland outside of the Axiom's immediate environs is weak and they've go zero ability to project any power or influence beyond the wasteland's borders. Sure, they fit the 'more of an environmental threat' criteria of Tier 2, but beyond that AUTO is a weak king who'd crumple like cardboard if the Masquerade wasn't a concern.

Beyond that I largely agree with your tier list though.
The mark of the Tier 2 is that they're largely unwilling to project force outside of their territory, and they won't necessarily bother with tracking you down unless you poke them directly. Now as for AUTO's power level, I'm seriously unsure. I remember the female robot (what a strange thing to say) in the movie having a frigging plasma gun, so if AUTO has more of those, it's not harmless, but I'm sincerely unsure on the upper limits of it's power projection capabilities. Does the ship have some kind of BFG?

He may not be Gabriel Agreste, but he is Le Papillon, he don't need no pharmacist


Bill and Toffee may have similar goals, but don't really express the same level of power. Also this list is missing Tommorowland at tier 1, an existential threat to all of mankind cuz of that damn precog machine. Encom somewhere between tiers 1 and 2, and King candy between 3 and 4, with encom being the major player in cyberspace and candy being the evil resistance. and also Monsters Inc at tier 2, not world domination, but just background kidnapping.
ENCOM is firmly Tier 4 in Realspace. As for the MCP, it might climb to tier 2 in The Grid, but ultimately nobody needs to go there. I'm not really great on TRON lore, can cyberspace represent any sort of threat to Realspace? If so, I might need to revise threat rating.

Monster Inc... I struggle with where to put them because they don't fit Tier 2. In fact, it's capabilities of military force projection from what we see in the movies are almost nil. I'm pretty sure Doof could conquer the place, if he were to find them. They might get a honorary Tier 3 because even if they struggle for energy production, they still have the land and people to throw at problems they want to make go away. Plus they have enough industry to supply an entire secret society, so they're not bad off. Yeah.

King Candy, I put him at Tier 4, same as ENCOM, which makes me feel bad because he's an absolute bottom-feeder even at Tier 4, while ENCOM stands at the very top of that category. Seriously, on the arena where King Candy could fight them, the MCP is actually, as @Simon_Jester pointed out, pretty much Tier 2.

The tiering system gets wiggly around the edges.

Bill and Toffee aren't at the same level of power, but to a large extent that cancels out. Bill is very much an "all or nothing" threat; either he's pre-eminent and you're moments from dying or wishing you had, or he's not really a problem for you in that particular moment. Toffee operates on much more of a sliding scale, and at a lower absolute power setting, but on the other hand he is far less limited. He can seek out resources, allies, and enemies freely, and it is entirely conceivable that he could find out a way to blow up the world even faster than Bill could, given that Bill has to wiggle out of a straitjacket first.

Tomorrowland has a potentially world-wrecking thing, but is not overall a world-wrecking power, necessarily, in terms of the resources at their disposal. Imagine if Judge Doom had a magical idol that was causing global warming and would keep escalating forever until/unless the idol was destroyed. The idol would allow Judge Doom to in effect choose to destroy the world... but it wouldn't actually make him more powerful in a normal day-to-day sense.

Encom is pretty firmly Tier 2 in cyberspace; they're huge and pre-eminent but on some level appear to be satiated. The MCP almost certainly isn't plotting to destroy the place. On the other hand their realspace presence is pretty limited and strictly Tier 4 territory; Judge Doom could probably make them very unhappy if he put his mind to it, though the reverse is no doubt also true.

We can't pigeonhole everyone entirely, without a nuanced understanding of the strategic position of some of the specific Kings.
Yeah, while the Tier system can kind of divide things based on generalities, it misses a lot of things. There's people stuck in the space between Tiers, people that are absolutely underperforming in terms of how much of a threat they could actually be, and even the Tier 4's can punch above their weight-class inside their specialty. It's more of a... Rough division, but with a lot of rungs inside them to represent actual capability.

For example, even though Doof and Xanatos are in the same category, they're not exactly peers. Their statlines speak for themselves. Meanwhile, the Phantom Blot could probably steal Glomgold's fortune out from under him and climb to rank 3 in a lazy afternoon (realistically, more like a year), he just doesn't want to.
 
Am i the only one that remembers this scene
EVE is admittedly very trigger-happy, but it doesn't sound like AUTO is even sending out many or any EVE-type probes. They're not a representative sample of AUTO's overall robot workforce, either.

IC neither we or Shego know about AUTO. We just know that a large swath of America is a junk pile because of something extremely freaky. IC the wasteland could be hiding a bill level threat.
It could, but IC we have no tangible evidence that it's hiding anything more than garbage-coated garbage with garbage filling. Certainly we've heard no rumors about suspiciously Apple-styled ovoid supersonic flying robots with plasma cannons shooting the place up.

The lack of any known evidence of an active sapient threat in the Wasteland would make an excellent excuse on our behalf, in the frankly rather unlikely instance that our first serious scouting expedition into that region disappears or meets true disaster.

Remember that ray that makes things digital? It works both ways. Clu was planning on going to the real world with an army.
OK, but if you're a cyberspace power trying to do that, then you're left trying to invade the real world through a limited number of technologically complex "bridgehead" devices- the SHV lasers. Devices that can be destroyed by real world forces to cut off your invasion force's access. The real world forces also have the ability to blow up the servers your cyberspace assets exist on, while the reverse is not true.

You're in the position of a man at the bottom of a well trying to win a rock-throwing fight with a man at the top of the well. It's not truly impossible as such, but it's not the way to bet unless you have one hell of an equalizer on your side.

Which is, I suspect, a big part of why in DVV the Master Control Program hasn't already done this.
 
t could, but IC we have no tangible evidence that it's hiding anything more than garbage-coated garbage with garbage filling. Certainly we've heard no rumors about suspiciously Apple-styled ovoid supersonic flying robots with plasma cannons shooting the place up.
My point was that nobody knows anything about the wasteland. They just know that something obliterated a large swath of America. Again IC that is a potential Bill level threat.
 
My point was that nobody knows anything about the wasteland. They just know that something obliterated a large swath of America. Again IC that is a potential Bill level threat.
The thing is, by all appearances, the "something" that "obliterated" that large swath just did so by having a gazillion tons of miscellaneous garbage fall on it. The garbage pile isn't doing much of anything, it hasn't expanded significantly (if at all), and no one and nothing much seems to be active inside it as far as can be determined from checking out the edges of the patch.

If a person in-setting engages in reasonable estimates of threats and not arbitrary shadowrunning speculation of worst imaginable scenarios regardless of plausibility... There is no reason to expect any major threats to arise just from entering the wasteland. There's good reasons not to go there routinely, such as "full of a gazillion tons of poisonous garbage." But there's no reason to expect to encounter a hostile cosmic entity in there.

An unknown region is not automatically, a priori a region where a reasonable person would expect to find horrific Lovecraftian horrors. Not without specific evidence indicating that such horrors are present.

That and the fact that the first two Encom actions this game were critfails on a 5 and a 10.

Like, seriously, how the fuck did they even manage that?
Presumably, the MCP didn't consider those Stewardship actions very important and assigned no hero units or other resources, or was somehow blocked from acting to deal with them. Then later on it went all assuming direct control on ENCOM's research and development programs, and has since been stacking up big powerful bonuses.
 
The thing is, by all appearances, the "something" that "obliterated" that large swath just did so by having a gazillion tons of miscellaneous garbage fall on it. The garbage pile isn't doing much of anything, it hasn't expanded significantly (if at all), and no one and nothing much seems to be active inside it as far as can be determined from checking out the edges of the patch.
Ah yes from an IC the thing which can and did destroy a significant portion of America is definitely not powerful or hostile. It is just a mess of perfectly ordinary harmless garbage which just magically popped into existence as garbage naturally does. There's no reason to be cautious investigating it.
 
Where are people getting these assumptions about giving stuff to get collaborations?

Unless I missed something all we know is we can roll to collaborate with someone and vote on what the collaboration will be.



Nothing about having to give up anything. I'm assuming all we need is to both want to research something and we would both get the research if we succeed.

Maybe it would be different for getting the martial second action with shego but I think people are making this way more complicated and divisive than it needs to be.
If it's just the research it would be right, but if want to collaborate on stuff like PR, we would likely need to take this action instead of with it:
[ ] Try to Collaborate With Xanatos on an Issue

DC Variable

There's definitely a lot going on in the world that affects you both. If you want to start building towards greater cooperation, it might be a good idea to talk to Xanatos about any potential issues you both face, or a possible point of conflict you'd like to nip in the bud.


The DC of this action is like that of Assault a Rival- once you suggest a specific issue to speak about, I'll estimate a DC for you.
Presumably concessions could lower the DC of the cooperation as we would ask for less comparatively.
Ah yes from an IC the thing which can and did destroy a significant portion of America is definitely not powerful or hostile. It is just a mess of perfectly ordinary harmless garbage which just magically popped into existence as garbage naturally does. There's no reason to be cautious investigating it.
What "thing"? Auto didn't do this. IC, we have no idea if it was an intentional event, a natural occurrence, a freak accident, or what. Something that would be helped by an actual investigation, you'd agree. We have no idea Auto exists, and if we assigned the current situation of the American Midwest as his fault we'd be wrong, so what exactly are you arguing here? We are not just jumping in with no preparation, but if we want to find out more the Quest is the way to do so. There's nothing that would be magically safer.
 
What "thing"? Auto didn't do this. IC, we have no idea if it was an intentional event, a natural occurrence, a freak accident, or what. Something that would be helped by an actual investigation, you'd agree. We have no idea Auto exists, and if we assigned the current situation of the American Midwest as his fault we'd be wrong, so what exactly are you arguing here? We are not just jumping in with no preparation, but if we want to find out more the Quest is the way to do so. There's nothing that would be magically safer.
I know Auto didn't do this. My point is that we don't know the threat level IC beyond that something really big happened and wiped out a chunk of America. IC We shouldn't send Hego to investigate it for the same IC reasons we shouldn't send him to investigate Oregon.
 
IC neither we or Shego know about AUTO. We just know that a large swath of America is a junk pile because of something extremely freaky. IC the wasteland could be hiding a bill level threat.
Even more in-character reason to investigate. Like, the great plains suddenly becoming a landfill probably got many people worried. I imagine that in-universe people would like to check on that place to make sure it's not suddenly gonna assimilate anyone or such.

In-character reasons to explore, meta-knowledge assurance Auto won't send his doombots back to our place. Opportunity for high-ish tech loot. Only question is when we won't be too busy to do it.
The mark of the Tier 2 is that they're largely unwilling to project force outside of their territory, and they won't necessarily bother with tracking you down unless you poke them directly. Now as for AUTO's power level, I'm seriously unsure. I remember the female robot (what a strange thing to say) in the movie having a frigging plasma gun, so if AUTO has more of those, it's not harmless, but I'm sincerely unsure on the upper limits of it's power projection capabilities. Does the ship have some kind of BFG?
The Axiom is a jumped-up SPACE!cruise liner that definitely is not equipped with any form of heavy artillery. Furthermore according to DVV lore the whole reason it's back on earth is that it needs to perform emergency repairs, so it's probably immobile or close to it. Might have some shield generators to deal with astroids or whatever.

the EVE units' blasters seems to be the exception rather than the rule, and I'd guess form the upper bound of the artillery the axiom can deploy. I'd guess AUTO isn't expecting war, so doesn't have a massive amount of them. More importantly, the EVEs are the only thing we see armed with those death rays, with the Axiom's security bots, though numerous, only armed with short-range stunning weaponry.

Given the Axiom was self-sustaining for several centuries in space they probably have good on-board manufacturing capabilities that IN THEORY could make a great deal of weaponry, but since Auto is only treating this as a pit-stop I would predict he is not in any form preparing for war.

That and the fact that the first two Encom actions this game were critfails on a 5 and a 10.

Like, seriously, how the fuck did they even manage that?
I don't know, but now that the Master Control Program is running things I would not trust that penalty kicking in again.
 
Wasn't the wasteland quest given to us on something like the third turn ?

I doubt Made in Heaven would have it be some kind of "if you pick this quest, game over for your units" trap, it's probably more "see what the deal is with the place, get some goodies and get out at any sign of resistance" kind of quest.

We're getting more and more competent heroes each turn, I'm sure we can make a decent team.
 
I'm not objecting to doing the wasteland quest. I'm objecting to sending Hego IC because of Shego. If you must send him on a quest then put him on Felldrake's world tour or other things where the level of threat is fairly well known.
 
Last edited:
After doing some research some Kings are a little easier to deal with then I first thought. AUTO has the whole flip the switch but so does Phobos as a big weakspot. He if goes to Candracar has he has given magical oath to not go there, he get striped about all his power including some very strong artifacts.
 
ENCOM is firmly Tier 4 in Realspace. As for the MCP, it might climb to tier 2 in The Grid, but ultimately nobody needs to go there. I'm not really great on TRON lore, can cyberspace represent any sort of threat to Realspace? If so, I might need to revise threat rating.
There definetly exists the possibility for Cyberspace to project people out into realspace. Its a major plotpoint in Legacy that clu has an army he's bringing to the gate. We don't know about equipment, but Quora comes out of cyberspace at the end of the movie, and presumably does not appear naked.
 
I know Auto didn't do this. My point is that we don't know the threat level IC beyond that something really big happened and wiped out a chunk of America. IC We shouldn't send Hego to investigate it for the same IC reasons we shouldn't send him to investigate Oregon.
Something happened, is the key word, not something is currently happening. Any readings we get will receive no new dangerous anything, just the same old toxic wasteland. If it behaves and frankly is a just a localized freakish occurrence, why is sending him there suddenly more dangerous than any of his heroic endeavors? Hego is not made of glass, and he actually wants to do dangerous things if it's heroic enough. He is not a child we need to coddle for mommy Shego.
I'm not objecting to doing the wasteland quest. I'm objecting to sending Hego IC because of Shego. If you must send him on a quest then put him on Felldrake's world tour or something where the level of threat is fairly well known.
I don't see why we'd think an infinite wasteland of trash is more dangerous than tomb-raiding the secret caches of a long dead evil archwizard. It's just trash, and maybe a few robots. Dangerous ones maybe, but quite literally nothing Hego hasn't faced before. As a bona-fide superhero, I think we should give him more credit than that. If this apprehension is just because of some unknown unknown shit, the very Quest already says we have sent probes there to verify what it was and it was indeed just endless trash with nothing of not occurring. How is that specially dangerous compared to the world-tour? All indications are that it's far less so. This is an unfounded fear.
 
I'm not objecting to doing the wasteland quest. I'm objecting to sending Hego IC because of Shego. If you must send him on a quest then put him on Felldrake's world tour or something where the level of threat is fairly well known.
Ah, it's a matter of disagrrement on which we think sounds like the more dangerous. Okay.

You take the unknown reason for the current state of the wasteland into account while we think it's more dangerous to send him in a far away unknown location (Felldrake never went to Xanadu for exemple) where his strengh is not much as protection against the occult.
 
Power projection into realspace has other, more mundane possibilities than an army of programs materialized. Think hacking, backdoors, and money. Think nukes, think bribes, think blackmail, think satellites and robots being hacked.

All that said, I still don't really care to mess with them - I think they're dangerous if seriously provoked but also relatively unlikely to be hostile for quite a while, so I'd rather focus on other things.
 
It's just as nice as the fact that in some negaverse dimension, alt!Made in Heaven is an avid fan of Teamo Supremo :V
In some negaverse dimension, alt!Teamo Supremo is even good! Or is that even possible?

Simon_Jester said:
An unknown region is not automatically, a priori a region where a reasonable person would expect to find horrific Lovecraftian horrors. Not without specific evidence indicating that such horrors are present.
Well, to be fair, in DVV I feel like a savvy character could expect to find horrific Lovecraftian horrors pretty much underneath every rock and be right about 50% of the time.
Presumably, the MCP didn't consider those Stewardship actions very important and assigned no hero units or other resources, or was somehow blocked from acting to deal with them. Then later on it went all assuming direct control on ENCOM's research and development programs, and has
What if the MCP was tied up fighting King Candy the first few turns?
 
Last edited:
Yo. I'm not sure if I'm being an ass for asking this, but can y'all stop debating plans before the turn is even over?

We don't know what's coming up or will happen, and it's kinda insane that there's page after page of long ass posts discussing it when I just want to read people's relevant reasoning for this post/vote.

Assuming the vote isn't closed, here's my vote:

[X] Ask Xanatos What's Good

If it is... ah, well. Not as if the Janna option isn't a runaway already. Gave up on finding the reasoning for this, seems like something we'd be able to do anytime since Janna's our hero unit.
 
Back
Top