Perhaps we should tread quietly around issues that could touch on real-world issues, and not attempt to go with a hottake of "yes, because [an individual] benefited from racism and genocide in the past," - committed by their ancestors, not themselves, personally - it is fine for someone to just outright murder them?
DoofQuest- a Disney Villains Victorious CK2-Style Quest
- Thread starter Made in Heaven
- Start date
- Crossover
Perhaps we should tread quietly around issues that could touch on real-world issues, and not attempt to go with a hottake of "yes, because [an individual] benefited from racism and genocide in the past," - committed by their ancestors, not themselves, personally - it is fine for someone to just outright murder them?
- Location
- the Netherworld Dood
Yes but do you want to lay the blame for all of the dirt that the Mongols caused on his feet simply because he's distantly related?
Should everyone who has a religion that has engaged in a holy war at some point be held responsible for the crimes of their religion?
Should crimes committed Lifetimes ago by people they've never met Be laid at the feet of people whom would be horrified by such crimes?
Getting back on track Star as far as I'm aware never engaged in wanton Genocide and neither did Marco. Hell Stars mom only cut off Toffy's finger as opposed to his HEAD after he killed her mother.
In fact, Magic may be one of the few Things that can FIGHT Bill.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
I mean technically Star and Marco are a threat to his reign. . .in the same way that people will rally behind a leader if they can find backers in exile IOTL.
Janna. . .well I'm not entirely sure what her whole deal is beyond she was really scared of Toffee but apparently not scared enough to leave her hometown. . .
So...
Hmmm...
Anyone who has this weird notion of Toffee being a righteous fighter in a struggle for the cause of non-human liberation may want to give a look at our one glimpse of Toffee's youth.
He doesn't come across as a particularly nice person, to put it mildly.
That said, yes, Glossaryck is still a huge dick.
Hmmm...
Anyone who has this weird notion of Toffee being a righteous fighter in a struggle for the cause of non-human liberation may want to give a look at our one glimpse of Toffee's youth.
He doesn't come across as a particularly nice person, to put it mildly.
That said, yes, Glossaryck is still a huge dick.
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Didn't you post that already?
@KnightofTempest could you please respond to these comments? It honestly sounds like you are trolling at this point.
I even compiled them so you don't have to go through the effort of searching two pages to respond to the outrage at you, implicitly, supporting genocide and the murder of innocents.
I even compiled them so you don't have to go through the effort of searching two pages to respond to the outrage at you, implicitly, supporting genocide and the murder of innocents.
weredrago2
"Cowabunga, Shadow the Hedgehog..."
- Location
- Florida
May I suggest a topic change? This is going nowhere good, and fast.
I'll handle those cards you gained from those personal actions when I get back from work. Forgot to post them earlier. Then comes the omake.
I'll handle those cards you gained from those personal actions when I get back from work. Forgot to post them earlier. Then comes the omake.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
To be fair, most of the people actually involved in the wrongdoing's are dead, aren't they?
Like, it's all well and good to say that the Pilgrims and the Unites States were the bad guy's in the whole "everything that ever happened to the Native American's", I'd definitely agree with that, and Native American's are still treated pretty terribly, but if a few years back a group of Native American's murdered Obama and Congress and took over the White House and the United States, started killing non Native American citizens within the border of the US en masse, and started hunting down Obama's surviving children as their on the run ... I'm pretty sure most people would agree that those are the bad guys in that particular situation.
Something needs to be done to start repairing the wounds of the past and fixing the civilization of the Mewni and Mewni/Monster relations, but that doesn't give Toffe a check for unlimited atrocities, and just flipping the power balance isn't going to fix anything, just continue the cycle of sins. Star is young and innocent and capable of seeing the wrongs of her own faction, that's a lot more then Toffe has going for him.
Toffe also isn't all monsters either, he's basically the heir to Seth's political faction, and Seth was notably feared and disliked even by other monsters. Seth is also, you know, arguably one of the primary actors in things being as bad as they are, refusing to participate in peace talks and establishing an organization that only seeks vengeance and violence, tainting Mewni/monster relations and all attempts to make things better to this very day.
There's no clear cut best solution here, and maybe putting Star back on the throne isn't the ideal thing to do, but I'd argue that keeping Toffe in charge is the worst result, and that Star is definitely more likely to at least try to be fair and help both sides and try to repair the rift and establish peaceful discourse then Toffee.
Edit: Star is young and innocent and hasn't actually done much wrong. Toffe's modus operandi is atrocity. I trust one of these two a lot more then the other.
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- Location
- Oregon
Not unless the site duped my post? Everything prior to that was just me learning about the current circumstances so I could attempt to make a semi-informed opinion on the matter.
- Location
- Wherever I feel like being
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Agreed. I think that Janna desperately needs a session with Technor next turn. This was just... yeah, she's been coasting on ennui and malaise and she's actually on the verge of a massive breakdown. Seeing if we can find Star next turn would probably do wonders for her mindset as well; and if we find Star we may find Marco too.
So, uh, do we talk to Xanatos about this?
And how much did Janna tell Doof anyway about Toffee and Star besides what was in the interlude?
And how much did Janna tell Doof anyway about Toffee and Star besides what was in the interlude?
I mean, is Mewni founded on oppression and genocide? Yes. Are most modern Mewmans racist assholes? Also yes. Does Toffee have perfectly legitimate grievances? Again yes. Does that mean we should completely dismiss all Mewmans? Not really because at the very least Star realised how unfair their system was and fought against it and there's also the Eclipsa situation
Depending on when the timeline diverged I'm pretty sure that Marco is actually in like his 30's
Actually Toffee's species of Monster has had regeneration basically since they came into existence and Toffee himself has been around for a very long time, potentially from the early days of the Butterfly family
I mean, isn't that kind of the same as modern Americans celebrating Thanksgiving and completely ignoring all the horrible shit their ancestors did to the Natives up to and after it?
There's actually only one child that in any way poses a risk to him and she has Monster sympathies and immediately gave up her claim to the throne when she learned that she wasn't the legitimate heir
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Some of those actually have been replied to. I don't blame you for not trolling through two pages of thread to find my responses
To reiterate, Star and Marco would be a threat to Toffee's reign. After all people will rally around a leader in exile and if they can find backers they can lead a counter-coup.
Janna is stuck in a bad situation for stupid reasons but she was apparently not scared enough to leave her hometown, which tells me a lot of her worries are either overblown or paranoia. If she really were in constant danger, she wouldn't have stayed.
As to the murder all humans thing, again I can only go off the wiki because I didn't watch the show and the Wiki makes it seem like his grudge was specifically against the Mewni Royals
Well I don't think Toffee even Knew Her exist. From what she is saying I gather that Toffee is just securing his holding in Arizona and not specifically targeting her at all. Just the those people with influence and had a big hand in business.
Like Janna is Star's best friend on earth next to Marco so if she is in Toffee check list then how can Max just waltz her up to Doofania without a problem? Do not say Toon Force.
- Location
- the Netherworld Dood
Right In an effort to change the topic so we don't have moderators jump in.
Should we give the Ruby wings to Jana or Khan?
Janna found them do she does have dibs rights but she has magic so she can probably fly.
Khan has the benefit of looking metal as hell with them.
Should we give the Ruby wings to Jana or Khan?
Janna found them do she does have dibs rights but she has magic so she can probably fly.
Khan has the benefit of looking metal as hell with them.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
I mean, in fairness if I was a freedom fighter and one of the people oppresing my group showed up and acted as smugly as Glossaryck did, I wouldn't react well either.
Topic change, topic change...
www.deviantart.com
I sorta want to get Jumba to make Dino horses. Very Mongol, no?
Or Pokemon berries.
Hybrids 04. by Notesz on DeviantArt
www.deviantart.com
I sorta want to get Jumba to make Dino horses. Very Mongol, no?
Or Pokemon berries.
- Location
- the Netherworld Dood
Toon force and being a known associate of a king and the son of a very famous toon. Attacking him would cause a massive controversy and might invite a army of killer robots.
- Location
- Oregon
Khan. Because it's funny.
Damm you.
- Location
- USA
We got confirmation she can fly, so I say give to Genghis.
Furthermore, I think eventually we should have von Drake tutor Dennis. The next step to his metoric rise to competence will be amazing.
Bluntly speaking, a lack of sympathy for the Mewman's is not, infact unique to you. Nobody in the thread gives a damn about the Mewmans, or cares at all that Toffee took over*. This is why the thread went to talk to him during the gala. However, and I'm not sure how you missed this, Star isn't, in fact, the person who genocide monsters, and in later seasons even repeatedly went against her own kingdom. If this was Star trying to recruit us to invade Mewni, I'd frankly be telling her to please leave. But it isn't, she's running and Toffee is going after a fourteen-year-old.
But it gets worse. Because he isn't just hurting Star, but actively taking control of the territory on this world. Territory that was never his or monsters to start with. Granted, if you want to giga-brain it, you could say the US was founded on genocide, but somehow I doubt he's restoring First People's rule. The thread grew truly hostile to him when he approached us like he approached Ludo. A fellow monster that he betrayed and screwed over. And we shouldn't let him do the same to us. Our true hostility came because he is trying to take us over, which Janna just laid out. The idea that he's going to 'remove all magic' and just leave all friendly like is not in line with him.
*at least the part about him conquering Mewmans, I kinda care about the degree he showed callous disregard for other monsters repeatedly
So she deserves to be hunted across another world after he kingdom fell? The response to institutional prejudice is to remove the advantages, not kill fourteen-year-olds. It's like you are parroting justice terms without understanding them. She's running and Toffee is still hunting her. This is psychotic.
Like simple easy check for 'am I someone we should be siding with? Are you hunting down 14 years olds and conquering other worlds that weren't yours, specifically ours? If yes, then we shouldn't be siding with you."
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