So on a lighter note I was reading the setting lore for Cruel Network,the Cartoon Network equivalent of DVV, and realized there is a character who fits a similar role to Doof. Does anyone think a ck2 quest in that setting headed by The Monarch of Venture Brothers sounds like a good idea?
 
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True, but just the same Grimdark/Mature stuff does not equal "edgy or chuuni" writing...take it from someone whose go-to powerset in stories and games has become Blood Magic.
Indeed it doesn't. After all, I DO enjoy Warhammer (both Franchises). Grimdark Stories CAN work.

The Problem comes when People overdo it, when they start putting too much Grimdarkness in (Ironically, that criticism also includes Warhammer. Let's just say that I...severely disagree with some of GW's Writing-Choices in the past few Years.) or when they darken Franchises that really do not need it.
Take, for example, Harry Potter. So, SO many Fan-written Stories there have the Plot of Harry getting betrayed by everyone and turning into a Dark Conqueror as a Result.
Some say that that is a great 'mature' way of writing Harry Potter.
I say it's more often then not a mess of everyone being horrendously out of Character with such tasteless things as Ron suddenly doing...certain things to Hermione without any other Motivation then that he's EVIL!!!, Ginny trying to feed Harry Love Potions because she's EVIL!!!, Harry suddenly deciding that murder and torture where always A-OK to use and-

...Sorry, I got carried away.
Anyway, my Point is: Yes, Grimdarkness CAN work. My Issue is that so many People who try to use it don't know HOW and WHEN to use it properly.
 
The Problem comes when People overdo it, when they start putting too much Grimdarkness in (Ironically, that criticism also includes Warhammer. Let's just say that I...severely disagree with some of GW's Writing-Choices in the past few Years.)

Funnily enough, famous YTer Sovietwomble came to similar conclusions for OPPOSITE reasons - to him, GW de-grimdarked 40k too much by having things actually progress for once and all bad stuff happening to him is only "GW trying to backpedal because they realized their fuckup"

But yeah, writing grimdark/mature *well* is hard to do and requires more than simply piling sin on top of sin for the heck of it.
 
I want to add to the conversation, but also not take the topic too far off the rails...

I'll just say that there's two stories I've read that were enjoyable at first, but I dropped once I realized that they were examples of "things never seem get better, only a different flavour of bad." These stories are Worm and The Wandering Inn. I consider stories like that to be exhausting, because the main characters never seem to get a break when they sorely need one, and I don't want that in my fictional settings. They're fantasies meant to let us escape from our dreary lives, consarnit, don't be such absolute downers!

That paragraph got longer than anticipated.

Regardless, this story, despite being a "Villains Won" interpretation, is light-hearted enough to not trigger that response. The main antagonist that would turn the world into such a thing is Doom, so I want to focus our efforts on our Greatest Enemy sometime soon.
 
My favorite way to introduce dark themes to Harry Potter is to show what themes were already there but introduce them way earlier. For instance if something lighter happens and the Dursley family acts rationally then Harry is treated better. A Harry that is not in a rush to escape from his family might take his time to look around at what the wizarding world has to offer. With time,patience, and trusted adults to help him read between the lines the wizards do not come off looking nearly as nice. No effort to fit in with muggles looks funny to a kid but when the adults read about memory spells and that they are a go to solution for a muggle seeing something they shouldn't it reads as far less funny. Other examples of Fridge Horror include Neville's home life, the fact that the Weasleys never talk to their squib accountant relative, and the fact the most popular wizarding sport involves cannon balls flying around trying to hurt people. Hidden throughout the books t hff ete is just enough info to hint at darker nature of the world around him that a Harry who is more attentive would pick up on it a lot faster. No unnecessary Grim dark needs to be added, Harry just has to be aware of what is around him before Voldemort revives to make the story a touch darker. In a sense asking for whom is he fighting and why?
Authors Note: While this is meant as answer to the post above it also fits neatly into my perspective. The best ways to introduce darkness into a setting naturally is to look at what the setting has implied but maybe not outright stated yet. For example if toys can feel pain or not does that make the incinerator scene worse or better? Relevant to this quest is if we ever get the means to hold seances and ask questions what secrets do we re as all want to know vs which questions are we better off not asking?
 
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I want to add to the conversation, but also not take the topic too far off the rails...

I'll just say that there's two stories I've read that were enjoyable at first, but I dropped once I realized that they were examples of "things never seem get better, only a different flavour of bad." These stories are Worm and The Wandering Inn. I consider stories like that to be exhausting, because the main characters never seem to get a break when they sorely need one, and I don't want that in my fictional settings. They're fantasies meant to let us escape from our dreary lives, consarnit, don't be such absolute downers!

That paragraph got longer than anticipated.

Regardless, this story, despite being a "Villains Won" interpretation, is light-hearted enough to not trigger that response. The main antagonist that would turn the world into such a thing is Doom, so I want to focus our efforts on our Greatest Enemy sometime soon.

Little correction:

Our "Greatest Enemy" is *Shego*... Doom is our *"Most Hated Enemy"* - proper labelling is important for an "Evil" Genius like us

But yeah, out of all the Kings, Doom is the most immediate threat and needs to go asap.

After him it´s either Syndrome or Belllwether, depending on whether we reach out to Supers or Preds next. I´d advise taking on Syndrome after Doom because a) his Domain directly borders ours, B) we stand a good chance at securing Shegos support (or at least her not stabbing us in the back while us and Syndrome duke it out) against the fucker, c) he is still trying to get back up after the Sands fiasco and d) he might get wise on where exactly our Normbots got their heightened competence from and take countermeasures.

As for Bill, I´d rather not go up against someone that´s essentially Q/Trelane/Discord without serious prep work and preferably strong allies.

Going back to the grimdark convo, I never got into Worm after hearing some of the particulars from people on my Discord server - particular one of the mods describing it as "poorly concealed misery pr0n"...So yeah, I´d rather stay with stuff like 40k
 
My favorite way to introduce dark themes to Harry Potter is to show what themes were already there but introduce them way earlier. For instance if something lighter happens and the Dursley family acts rationally then Harry is treated better. A Harry that is not in a rush to escape from his family might take his time to look around at what the wizarding world has to offer. With time,patience, and trusted adults to help him read between the lines the wizards do not come off looking nearly as nice. No effort to fit in with muggles looks funny to a kid but when the adults read about memory spells and that they are a go to solution for a muggle seeing something they shouldn't it reads as far less funny. Other examples of Fridge Horror include Neville's home life, the fact that the Weasleys never talk to their squib accountant relative, and the fact the most popular wizarding sport involves cannon balls flying around trying to hurt people. Hidden throughout the books t hff ete is just enough info to hint at darker nature of the world around him that a Harry who is more attentive would pick up on it a lot faster. No unnecessary Grim dark needs to be added, Harry just has to be aware of what is around him before Voldemort revives to make the story a touch darker. In a sense asking for whom is he fighting and why?
Sorry, but I feel like many of these Points you brought up either just really aren't that big a deal or are properly explained within the Books at some point.

Far better examples, in my Opinion, would be the Facts that the Ministry approves of Good Emotions- and Soul-eating Monsters as Guards of their only real Prison - which doesn't really seem to serve as a Facility to rehabilitate People but just to hold them inside forever - the Treatment of House Elves, the Prejudices against Werewolves, Centaurs, Goblins and other non-Human magical beings, the Corruption within the Ministry itself, etc.

But I fear we have gone off on a bit of a Tangent here... Let's stop this now before we derail the Thread.
 
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Little correction:

Our "Greatest Enemy" is *Shego*... Doom is our *"Most Hated Enemy"* - proper labelling is important for an "Evil" Genius like us

But yeah, out of all the Kings, Doom is the most immediate threat and needs to go asap.

After him it´s either Syndrome or Belllwether, depending on whether we reach out to Supers or Preds next. I´d advise taking on Syndrome after Doom because a) his Domain directly borders ours, B) we stand a good chance at securing Shegos support (or at least her not stabbing us in the back while us and Syndrome duke it out) against the fucker, c) he is still trying to get back up after the Sands fiasco and d) he might get wise on where exactly our Normbots got their heightened competence from and take countermeasures.

As for Bill, I´d rather not go up against someone that´s essentially Q/Trelane/Discord without serious prep work and preferably strong allies.

Going back to the grimdark convo, I never got into Worm after hearing some of the particulars from people on my Discord server - particular one of the mods describing it as "poorly concealed misery pr0n"...So yeah, I´d rather stay with stuff like 40k
Shego is our Greatest Rival now.
"Eh?" you ask, surprised. "What about Greatest Rival Shego?"
 
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So next turn if no fires need to be put out who thinks using the ring to summon Malifishmirtz is a good idea. Besides magic there are a couple of things I like to know. How did he achieve his ghostly state because it sounds like a neat idea as a backup incase anything should happen to us. Can he interact with the world of the dead in any way because if he can getting info straight from the horses mouth is great. And finally what is his opinion on moving the castle and if he likes the idea where would he want to move it.
 
So on a lighter note I was reading the setting lore for Cruel Network,the Cartoon Network equivalent of DVV, and realized there is a character who fits a similar role to Doof. Does anyone think a ck2 quest in that setting headed by The Monarch of Venture Brothers sounds like a good idea?

Hoooo boy, yes.

Though probably if we only focussed upon the American Continent at first to be manageable since that's a global spanning expansion.

Personally though, I am unfamiliar with over half of the shows involved/referenced.
 
So next turn if no fires need to be put out who thinks using the ring to summon Malifishmirtz is a good idea. Besides magic there are a couple of things I like to know. How did he achieve his ghostly state because it sounds like a neat idea as a backup incase anything should happen to us. Can he interact with the world of the dead in any way because if he can getting info straight from the horses mouth is great. And finally what is his opinion on moving the castle and if he likes the idea where would he want to move it.
And perhaps get him to tell us about what the Villagers thrown into his castle as well.
 
I don't even know half of the Disney cartoon universe, let alone cartoon network. Or any of these game settings either honestly.
 
A false alarm that (at least in this recent example) almost caused an outcry at the quest´s seeming overflowing grimdarkness and could have seen scores of followers abandon a "sinking ship"
Yes, but the root problem there wasn't the Discord. It was the false alarm. If you want to get upset with someone for willfully taking a joke throwaway line out of context and asserting their misinterpretation as fact, that's fine... But the exact same thing could have happened if "death by inhaled cheez" had been the subject of a joke in the thread.

It might have been not so bad in the end, but always brushing off uncomfortable concerns as "not worth the hassle" isn´t the right way either.

I admit that I am being rather heavy-handed about this topic, but I just can not stand the inherently callous nature of expecting people to always be on the hunt for crucial info in a medium as fluid as Discord channels - especially while accounting for different timezones.
That is fair, but at the same time, it is at best discourteous to condemn people for things that didn't happen, or that are not their fault.

Regardless, this story, despite being a "Villains Won" interpretation, is light-hearted enough to not trigger that response. The main antagonist that would turn the world into such a thing is Doom, so I want to focus our efforts on our Greatest Enemy sometime soon.
I think that the catch is that we have a fairly realistic chance of beating Judge Doom, or at least collapsing his fortunes as badly as we collapsed Syndrome's.

Then again, maybe you're concerned that if Judge Doom goes down, someone else will just muscle in on his territory?

My favorite way to introduce dark themes...

Authors Note: While this is meant as answer to the post above it also fits neatly into my perspective. The best ways to introduce darkness into a setting naturally is to look at what the setting has implied but maybe not outright stated yet. For example if toys can feel pain or not does that make the incinerator scene worse or better? Relevant to this quest is if we ever get the means to hold seances and ask questions what secrets do we re as all want to know vs which questions are we better off not asking?
How about we just stop going out of our way to introduce additional dark themes into a setting that doesn't belong to us, that we didn't create, and that a QM is trying to actively manage and cultivate so that it won't be too dark for most of the audience to want to participate in?

Like, if adding more dark themes to a work of fiction is just your one big hobby that you gotta do... could you maybe do it somewhere else? DVV Doof Quest is not the best place for it.

After him it´s either Syndrome or Belllwether, depending on whether we reach out to Supers or Preds next. I´d advise taking on Syndrome after Doom because a) his Domain directly borders ours, B) we stand a good chance at securing Shegos support (or at least her not stabbing us in the back while us and Syndrome duke it out) against the fucker, c) he is still trying to get back up after the Sands fiasco and d) he might get wise on where exactly our Normbots got their heightened competence from and take countermeasures.
I think Syndrome might actually be on the way down no matter what we do, as others move in on him in his time of weakness.

Also, note that we have a strong inherent disadvantage when it comes to reaching out to supers, because Shego is already doing that and is better at it than we are. We might be able to reach out to the 'predator' anthropomorphic animals of Zootopia, but... I'm not really sure we should push into that too much; I don't think it'd be especially advantageous.
 
I am totally shipping Shego/Doof. He need someone to be... not goofy in his life, and Sheog could probably use some levity in hers. Plus the romancing would probably take the form of a musical, and while that would probably induce a lot of eye rolling from her, I also think she would find it extremely sweet that he would go to such lengths for her. One hundrent percent Shoof shipping for sure.
 
Beats me, because I am unfamiliar with the Verse as a whole. Anyone in the know mind throwing us interested ones a link?
I don't even know half of the Disney cartoon universe, let alone cartoon network. Or any of these game settings either honestly.
All of the material for DVV and its subsequent spinoffs can be found on my Google Drive, linked right here, on the Discord, and also on 1d4chan.

 
So next turn if no fires need to be put out who thinks using the ring to summon Malifishmirtz is a good idea. Besides magic there are a couple of things I like to know. How did he achieve his ghostly state because it sounds like a neat idea as a backup incase anything should happen to us. Can he interact with the world of the dead in any way because if he can getting info straight from the horses mouth is great. And finally what is his opinion on moving the castle and if he likes the idea where would he want to move it.
Sorry but next turn any action not spent putting out fires should ideally be spent getting a second action for our economy.

It'll pay off in the long run.
 
I think Syndrome might actually be on the way down no matter what we do, as others move in on him in his time of weakness.

Also, note that we have a strong inherent disadvantage when it comes to reaching out to supers, because Shego is already doing that and is better at it than we are. We might be able to reach out to the 'predator' anthropomorphic animals of Zootopia, but... I'm not really sure we should push into that too much; I don't think it'd be especially advantageous.

Syndrome probably going down anyway is all the more reason to make sure we get our slice of the cake as well for reasons I already explained.

As for whom to reach out to, I admit that I simply want us to be the "Equal Opportunity Evil" King of the bunch...maybe a bit naive, but nonetheless a nice idea.
 
@Made in Heaven , I have a request.

Right now we have 84 'main' threadmarks, 20 'sidestory' threadmarks, and 7 'apocrypha' threadmarks.

Could you move the canon omakes to 'sidestory' and the noncanon omakes to 'apocrypha?' It'd make it a lot easier to browse back through specifically the quest's main story. Right now there are like a dozen canon omakes threadmarked between the January 2016 turn post and the start of Blue Hawaii...

Sorry but next turn any action not spent putting out fires should ideally be spent getting a second action for our economy.

It'll pay off in the long run.
Summoning Malifishmertz is a Personal Action though.

We could still (in theory) give Personal Attention to one of the 'double-action actions' and still summon him, admittedly at the cost of not doing any other Personal Actions that turn.
 
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I think that the catch is that we have a fairly realistic chance of beating Judge Doom, or at least collapsing his fortunes as badly as we collapsed Syndrome's.

Then again, maybe you're concerned that if Judge Doom goes down, someone else will just muscle in on his territory?
Something that was discussed in the Discord, and that I meant to bring here, is that we can possibly knock out several birds with a few stones. We finish our flubber research and adapt our own tech for it...and then we give Khan an inside track on them since he is one of the more...reliable of the Kings/people in charge, and Flubber energy would hit his source of power rather hard. In Tailspin, Khan followed a code on par with Lord Vetinari from Discworld and would make a reliable ally that could arguably do a good job of helping us take down Judge Doom and then taking over the turf. For all his faults, Khan treated his employees well and would definitely treat the Toons better than Doom does if only out of enlightened self-interest.


I also had the idea of us moving in on Kronos and managing to put Mirage in charge, give her a chance to make amends with what happened with Syndrome, if we handle it right and even bring in Winston, it could give us all of Kronos tech, territory and a powerful new ally/vassal without having to be too directly involved.

And this dovetails into the final idea I had: That of gathering the more...consistent of the Kings in a loose alliance/cooperative venture. Doof, Khan, Xanatos, and Shego would make a powerful force and be able to deal with each other pretty decently. It wouldn't be a case of being best buds or anything like that, but you'd essentially have them meeting once a year or so to touch base on potential ventures relating to each other's strengths, compare victories, and essentially engage in a bit of mutual rivalry over who did better and how for prestige, wealth, and pride.

One such way to get the ball rolling is through using Bill as an accurate world ender threat to temporarily unite against and then just...keeping the cooperation going after that. It'd also be a good way to take down Toffee if we can get him and Bill going at it, as Toffee strikes me as a rather dangerous threat in his own right due to his competence with both tech and magic as well as being utterly amoral and his code being must less constrained than the others we could work with. Having Bill and Toffee out of the way would do the quest a lot of good.
 
Something that was discussed in the Discord, and that I meant to bring here, is that we can possibly knock out several birds with a few stones. We finish our flubber research and adapt our own tech for it...and then we give Khan an inside track on them since he is one of the more...reliable of the Kings/people in charge, and Flubber energy would hit his source of power rather hard. In Tailspin, Khan followed a code on par with Lord Vetinari from Discworld and would make a reliable ally that could arguably do a good job of helping us take down Judge Doom and then taking over the turf. For all his faults, Khan treated his employees well and would definitely treat the Toons better than Doom does if only out of enlightened self-interest.
I like this plan except for the part where we use Flubber.

Until and unless we deal with the Masquerade-related issue of Flubber being blamed for the 'disappearance' of Hawaii, Flubber energy just isn't going to go very far and has a lot of risks of people trying to stop us out of a misguided desire to stop us from accidentally putting a two hundred mile wide crater in the Tri-State Area.

If we were talking about fusion power or something, though, I'd feel differently.

I also had the idea of us moving in on Kronos and managing to put Mirage in charge, give her a chance to make amends with what happened with Syndrome, if we handle it right and even bring in Winston, it could give us all of Kronos tech, territory and a powerful new ally/vassal without having to be too directly involved.
This is not a bad idea.

And this dovetails into the final idea I had: That of gathering the more...consistent of the Kings in a loose alliance/cooperative venture. Doof, Khan, Xanatos, and Shego would make a powerful force and be able to deal with each other pretty decently. It wouldn't be a case of being best buds or anything like that, but you'd essentially have them meeting once a year or so to touch base on potential ventures relating to each other's strengths, compare victories, and essentially engage in a bit of mutual rivalry over who did better and how for prestige, wealth, and pride.
Complication: Doof, Khan, Xanatos, and Shego may have significant incompatible goals.

For example, Khan appears to harbor anti-super prejudice even if he isn't as much of a maniac about it as Syndrome. Shego is... the opposite of that. Doof has literally seceded from the federal government; Xanatos is backing and attempting to puppet the federal government.

One such way to get the ball rolling is through using Bill as an accurate world ender threat to temporarily unite against and then just...keeping the cooperation going after that. It'd also be a good way to take down Toffee if we can get him and Bill going at it, as Toffee strikes me as a rather dangerous threat in his own right due to his competence with both tech and magic as well as being utterly amoral and his code being must less constrained than the others we could work with. Having Bill and Toffee out of the way would do the quest a lot of good.
I'm, uh, pretty sure that dealing with Bill Cypher is an endgame-tier threat no matter what. I'm not sure there IS much that can happen to top that.
 
@Made in Heaven , I have a request.

Right now we have 84 'main' threadmarks, 20 'sidestory' threadmarks, and 7 'apocrypha' threadmarks.

Could you move the canon omakes to 'sidestory' and the noncanon omakes to 'apocrypha?' It'd make it a lot easier to browse back through specifically the quest's main story. Right now there are like a dozen canon omakes threadmarked between the January 2016 turn post and the start of Blue Hawaii...

I actually would really prefer it to stay the way it is. When I want to read the whole quest, I also want to be able to read the canon omakes that were written at the same times, since they often contribute context, characters, etc. Moving the canon omakes into a new section makes it much harder to view the updates and the omakes at the same time in the proper order. You'd have to jump back and forth and constantly check dates.
 
I like this plan except for the part where we use Flubber.

Until and unless we deal with the Masquerade-related issue of Flubber being blamed for the 'disappearance' of Hawaii, Flubber energy just isn't going to go very far and has a lot of risks of people trying to stop us out of a misguided desire to stop us from accidentally putting a two hundred mile wide crater in the Tri-State Area.

If we were talking about fusion power or something, though, I'd feel differently.

That is fair and a good point, and I can easily see replacing Flubber with Fusion power for the same sort of plan, i'd forgotten about Flubber being blamed for Hawaiil

Complication: Doof, Khan, Xanatos, and Shego may have significant incompatible goals.

For example, Khan appears to harbor anti-super prejudice even if he isn't as much of a maniac about it as Syndrome. Shego is... the opposite of that. Doof has literally seceded from the federal government; Xanatos is backing and attempting to puppet the federal government.

True, and that'd be part of why it wouldn't be too close, but I also see your point and it'd need some diplo actions to say the least to see if such a "Club" or "Boardroom" would be possible in spite of competing goals/interests.At the very least, we seem to be in a good place to bridge the various factions above for mutual fun, profit and EVIL!
 
Complication: Doof, Khan, Xanatos, and Shego may have significant incompatible goals.
I hate to be That Guy, but akshually that's not the case.
  • Shere Khan: Money & Power, as per a direct quote from 'Citizen Khan'. He may not like Supers, but he's not Anti-Super. He just doesn't want them causing disruptions in his business.
  • Xanatos: Immortality has always been his overarching goal, in one way or another. Keeping the masquerade up merely means he can continue his search unimpeded by others looking for the same thing that aren't "in the know" right now.
  • Shego: Shego is honestly a bit trickier. At this point she seems to be more creating a safe haven for Supers due to Syndrome's major lashing out and basically hunting Supers down. With Syndrome on a downward spiral she's likely to be focused on taking KRONOS out and then holding her territory against the Zaibatsu and whoever is controlling the LA Underworld.
  • Doof: The Tri-State area is honestly what he wants; but he's also reasonable and can be talked around if the plan makes sense and is even further overarching than his own initial goals. People have been making noises about making nice with the government already (though I disagree on that) so the fact that it's an option at all means that he can be talked into supporting the masquerade.
 
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