How about 'number of people helped'? There is nowhere on Earth that needs aggressively renovating more than Drusselstein does.

How about 'great feats achieved'? Turning a 4th World Country into somewhere worth living would be the sort of accomplishment history books are written about?

There are plenty of reasons beyond "I want to run a country" for conquering a country.
Yeah, but do we have the resources, time, or ability to do any of those things? We have enough people to help back in the area we do control. There's something which has been consistent in the quest: If we refuse to listen to the QMs telling us an idea is stupid, then bad shit happens! And this seems pretty well-signposted. The narrative of the quest is pretty damn clear: Doof's desire to own a nation is a symptom of deep mental trauma, and i'm not gonna let you people bring us further into our delusions! We have enough shit to be concerned about without trying to reform the worst country on Earth to almost no actual benefit to us! Aren't you the guy who's always against opening up new fronts for no reason? I feel like I shouldn't have to try and argue that an action whose description includes the phrase "this is a dumb idea" is, in fact, a dumb idea. The only real benefit I can see of owning Drusselstein is putting stuff we don't want people to find out about in it, and that's not really worth it. The benefits are minuscule and the cost would be a massive sink of actions for no real benefit to us, when, frankly, our priority list is already overcrowded. Even if it does make a better story, that story could still end up just being "and then Doof did something stupid and ate shit". There is ample precedent to prove that is immensely entertaining, but I doubt that's the direction anyone wants to go.
 
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and why do we need that and can't use... anything else
What else is there? Drusselstein is a country sized area outside of any jurisdiction, there aren't two of those; We can make the laws; Magic is openly acknowledged in Drusselstein and we can both look for and stash magical things there; Any outsider would stick out like a sore thumb in Drusselstein, so it would be harder to infiltrate; Anything we do in Drusselstein is out of the sphere of influence of any other King.

On the productive end, we can literally terraform Drusselstein and make it more productive through all of our food production techs, but that's not Drusselstein's true value. Even if all we manage to do is make the place pay for itself, it means we have a place with no economic regulations to do stuff in.

Yeah, but do we have the resources, time, or ability to do any of those things? We have enough people to help back in the area we do control. There's something which has been consistent in the quest: If we refuse to listen to the QMs telling us an idea is stupid, then bad shit happens! And this seems pretty well-signposted. The narrative of the quest is pretty damn clear: Doof's desire to own a nation is a symptom of deep mental trauma, and i'm not gonna let you people bring us further into our delusions! We have enough shit to be concerned about without trying to reform the worst country on Earth to almost no actual benefit to us! Aren't you the guy who's always against opening up new fronts for no reason? I feel like I shouldn't have to try and argue that an action whose description includes the phrase "this is a dumb idea" is, in fact, a dumb idea. The only real benefit I can see of owning Drusselstein is putting stuff we don't want people to find out about in it, and that's not really worth it. The benefits are minuscule and the cost would be a massive sink of actions for no real benefit to us, when, frankly, our priority list is already overcrowded/
Oh, come off it. The action description is this:

Outcome: Drussestein will become sovereign territory ruled by you. Like, actually. You will have genuine absolute power over the land of your birth, with all the responsibility that implies. Just don't, uh, expect international recognition or anything. Everyone will continue to pretend that Drusselstein doesn't exist and hope that if they do that long enough, it will be true.
It's an orange action. The benefits and problems are clearly laid out. This action A) exists, and B) was not vetoed by the Council. It is a viable course of action. If QMs didn't want us to do it, they wouldn't have let us. This isn't the result of a write-in, we didn't ask for this.
 
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It's an orange action. The benefits and problems are clearly laid out. This action A) exists, and B) has clearly laid out benefits and consequences.
Read a few paragraphs above in the Council summary:
Council Outlook: This is a Dumb Idea 3/6 (Pass)
I don't know how much more clear they could be that this is a dumb idea.

What else is there? Drusselstein is a country sized area outside of any jurisdiction, there aren't two of those; We can make the laws; Magic is openly acknowledged in Drusselstein and we can both look for and stash magical things there; Any outsider would stick out like a sore thumb in Drusselstein, so it would be harder to infiltrate; Anything we do in Drusselstein is out of the sphere of influence of any other King.

On the productive end, we can literally terraform Drusselstein and make it more productive through all of our food production techs, but that's not Drusselstein's true value. Even if all we manage to do is make the place pay for itself, it means we have a place with no economic regulations to do stuff in.
I don't think that's a thing we actually need even a little. The only benefit would be to store things we don't want anyone knowing about, and we OWN A DIMENSIONAL PORTAL. What, exactly, do we even WANT to do that would actually benefit from that, and is any of it worthwhile enough to offset the massive action sink that would be having responsibility over a nation of people when we are barely qualified to run a megacorp and not-even-qualified to run three states. I don't think you're fully comprehending what OWNING A NATION means. It's. Not. Fucking. Worth. It. Jesus.

It's an orange action. The benefits and problems are clearly laid out. This action A) exists, and B) was not vetoed by the Council. It is a viable course of action. If QMs didn't want us to do it, they wouldn't have let us. This isn't the result of a write-in, we didn't ask for this.
The QMs give us actions because they would make an intersting story. That story could still feature "and then Doof did something very dumb and ate shit as a result".
 
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I don't think that's a thing we actually need even a little. The only benefit would be to store things we don't want anyone knowing about, and we OWN A DIMENSIONAL PORTAL.
Item number one on the list of things we don't want anyone knowing about? A DIMENSIONAL PORTAL. In U.S. soil, surrounded by all the other Kings, while experimentla tech prototypes were recently stolen from us and we don't even know by who. You see the problem there?

I don't know how much more clear they could be that this is a dumb idea.
And yet, every mad scientist in the Council unanimously voted for it. Ask any other mad scientist in our employ, they'll say the exact same thing. This is mad science 101.
 
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Item number one on the list of things we don't want anyone knowing about? A DIMENSIONAL PORTAL. In U.S. soil. You see the problem there?


And yet, every mad scientist in the Council unanimously voted for it. Ask any other mad scientist in our employ, they'll say the exact same thing. This is mad science 101.
Yes. Pointless revenge for quasi-imagined slights. The thing we FIRED LOVEMUFFIN for. Mad science is, by definition, NOT a sane thing to do. This is not the sort of quest where insanity somehow makes an idea better.
 
And yet, every mad scientist in the Council unanimously voted for it.
I mean, I feel like that's not exactly the best point to use considering Coyote voted for it because he hated the retreat than any other reasoning in his blurb and Ludivine rolls for her Pass/Abstain/Veto choice.

Edit: and even then the council outlook right above that says "This is a dumb idea"
 
I mean, I feel like that's not exactly the best point to use considering Coyote voted for it because he hated the retreat than any other reasoning in his blurb and Ludivine rolls for her Pass/Abstain/Veto choice.
And Janus, however much he refuses to admit it, is a sociopath who wants a steady stream of impoverished peasants to do nonconsensual experiments on. Because he is a crazy person.
 
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[ ] Invade Drusselstein
DC 100

So apparently there's this thing called 'NATO', and they get reeeaallllly testy if you push up against their borders. But! Your lawyers have found the one place on Earth that absolutely nobody in any foreign government will care at all if you invade.

Oh no.

Drusselstein! The invasion is… well, it's not going to be complicated, most of the effort is going to be spent in making sure your mindless peons and normbot operators don't just leave as soon as humanly possible, but it is, technically, on paper, sort of… okay to do?

Council Outlook: This is a Dumb Idea 3/6 (Pass)
Coyote: I demand revenge for the events of our previous retreat. (Pass)
Goofy: Invadin' another country? Even if they don't care, that's awful! (Veto)
Janus Lee: Just imagine an entire country cut off from the rest of the world that is unbeholden to any of their limiting laws! (Pass)
Mirage: Doctor, this is in no way a sane idea. Please don't listen to Janus. (Veto)
Ludivine: Every scientist secretly yearns for a leettle undeveloped European backwatah to call their own. I just wish it smelled bettah. Ah well, we'll work on et. (Pass)
Malifishmirtz: NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! (Veto)

Outcome: Drussestein will become sovereign territory ruled by you. Like, actually. You will have genuine absolute power over the land of your birth, with all the responsibility that implies. Just don't, uh, expect international recognition or anything. Everyone will continue to pretend that Drusselstein doesn't exist and hope that if they do that long enough, it will be true.
Here is the councils take on Drusselstein for people that dont want to go back and find it.

OK, so while I dislike both ideas; I might as well talk about the pros and cons of the 2 actually worth considering (AKA the ones that dont piss off the Feds).

Drusselstein: Pros
Isolated-We can do whatever mad science we want there without issue
Tax Benefits-Own a country lets us do crazy things with our taxes, and even collect taxes!
Pride-in your face dad
Foothold-Gives us a foothold in europe
Easy-One action Genghis Khan is guarenteed to succeed at

Drusselstein Cons:
Poor-The taxes won't be very high, and I don't think Drusselstein has a lot in the way of natural resources outside of it's flora. We will be using it first and foremost for the physical land
Traditionalism- Any Attempts to perform actual reforms will fail, Drusselstein simply is to small-minded and superstitious to do so.
Loyalty Issues-Half our Council dislike the idea, and I'm certain a lot of heroes such as Wendy would as well. Malf is also a bit agitated do to the fact we're summoning Celena already, so doing something even worse then getting a better ghost wizard would infuriate him.
Action Economy-Running a Country is Hard

Colony Pros:
Better Rewards-Since we get an entire dimension, we can probably stop buying shit like metal and oil from other companies.
Less Concern-Our heroes are more likely to be enthusiastic and not irritated about this
Complete Control- What we say, goes; no angry mobs or anything
Foothold-First steps for Interdimensional Profit
Public Relations-People will likely be enthusiastic when we do this.

Colony Cons:
Harder to Start-Better Profits come with higher cost. There are a lot of actions (And likely Income) spent to prepare the Colony before we start
Under Public Eye-While we can do whatever we want without legal consequences, this project will almost certainly be public
Interdimensional Freakshow-Magic Lizards, Life-Draining Birds, Cyborg Newts, and Phobos all can and will pose a fret to the colony.
Action Economy-Even when its set up we have some major issues keeping it afloat.

I will say this, I can be pursuaded on Colony towards the end of the quest. When we aren't juggling a ton of flaming torches.
 
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I mean, I feel like that's not exactly the best point to use considering Coyote voted for it because he hated the retreat than any other reasoning in his blurb and Ludivine rolls for her Pass/Abstain/Veto choice.

Edit: and even then the council outlook right above that says "This is a dumb idea"
Okay, so I'll address this concern that "this is a dumb idea" very simply:

If we conquer it and don't like it, what is stopping us from putting Drusselstein back where we found it?

Yes. Pointless revenge for quasi-imagined slights. The thing we FIRED LOVEMUFFIN for. Mad science is, by definition, NOT a sane thing to do. This is not the sort of quest where insanity somehow makes an idea better.
It absolutely is the sort of quest where insanity somehow makes an idea better. All of our greatest accomplishments in Genetics, AI, and dimensional travel, are Mad Science. Ressurecting Gengis Freaking Khan, was Mad Science. Attempting to scientifically study magic, is Mad... well, Magic. Doofenshmirtz is a mad scientist, with a collection of the greatest mad scientists in the galaxy working for him. This is not a game we win by playing discount Xanatos, it's a game we win by playing to our actual strenghts.

We fored Lovemuffim for not doing Mad Science we approved of, and even then, they were plenty useful before we got rid of them.
 
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It absolutely is the sort of quest where insanity somehow makes an idea better. All of our greatest accomplishments in Genetics, AI, and dimensional travel, are Mad Science.
No? I mean, I guess in a sense, but this quest has defined what mad science looks like. It's petty revenge for quasi-imagined grievances. We have used mad scientists to our benefit, but that does not make what they do mad science.
 
So since I feel like were arguing in circles, heres an idea for what might be good to search for in our last 5 hero spots

Celena
Occult Hero
Intrigue Hero
Terraformer
Heroball Fodder Slot

Terraforming is the last INdustry we need some focus on, Occult and Intrigue are the last 2 stats that need help, and a slot where we get some extra guys to use in heroballs is always good. If we don't want to try that we can always get another intruge or occult unit, or save it incase we find a hero we really, really want later.
 
No? I mean, I guess in a sense, but this quest has defined what mad science looks like. It's petty revenge for quasi-imagined grievances. We have used mad scientists to our benefit, but that does not make what they do mad science.
Then you read Technor's interlude with Doof wrong. Mad Science can be petty revenge for quasi-imagined grievances... Or it can be usefully harnessing that spiteful energy to achieve feats thought impossible and leave a mark in the world.

Like Jumba, like Ludivine, and yes, like Janus. They're all crazy, and they're all doing things nobody else could because of that crazy. Doofenshmirtz's problem on accomplishing his goals was never the Mad Science, it was a lack of focus.
 
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Then you read Technor's interlude with Doof wrong. Mad Science can be petty revenge for quasi-imagined grievances, or it can be usefully harnessing that spiteful energy to achieve feats thought impossible and leave a mark in the world.

Like Jumba, like Ludivine, and yes, like Janus. They're all crazy, and they're all doing things nobody else can because they're crazy.
Yeah, but...Like...The whole point of Technor's rant is that Doof needs to be pragmatic, to actually think through the consequences of his actions. And i'm not convinced the insanity is a vital component. The weirdness, maybe, the INSANITY, no. Ludivine would still have 40 Learning, whether or not she also has a 1-in-6 chance of doing the wrong action due to her terminal level of scatterbrained-ness. We can do mad science without being insane. Hell, Xanay does mad science (I mean, Coldstone, the Steel Clan, Coyote, his power armor), but one of the reasons he's effective is because he's (generally) able to avoid falling into the tropes and doing stupid stuff for reasons of his pride. We should keep doing mad science, but BEING an insane person is not actually an asset. Doof's...Provecalities have been a hindrance on countless occasions. Basically, i'm not against mad science, i'm against doing something that has been clearly signposted as a dumb idea at every turn.
 
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Okay, so I'll address this concern that "this is a dumb idea" very simply:

If we conquer it and don't like it, what is stopping us from putting Drusselstein back where we found it?
Putting aside the fact that I'm not sure how one relates to the other, it wouldn't negate the fact that we did it in the first place. Malf would definitely remember this. Mirage and Goofy probably would as well.

And going by the "all the responsibilities that implies" bit there's probably a non-zero amount of consequences to just letting it go, and even if there weren't if we just let go would mean we burned at least one action for absolutely nothing, at best.

Like, even with the pass votes the QM's still felt the need to point out, and write down, that this is a dumb idea. I won't argue that there arent some benefits, but I don't really get why you're using the mad scientists as a point of reference for this and not Mirage, our usual reference point for this sort of thing.
 
Putting aside the fact that I'm not sure how one relates to the other, it wouldn't negate the fact that we did it in the first place. Malf would definitely remember this. Mirage and Goofy probably would as well.

And going by the "all the responsibilities that implies" bit there's probably a non-zero amount of consequences to just letting it go, and even if there weren't if we just let go would mean we burned at least one action for absolutely nothing, at best.

Like, even with the pass votes the QM's still felt the need to point out, and write down, that this is a dumb idea. I won't argue that there arent some benefits, but I don't really get why you're using the mad scientists as a point of reference for this and not Mirage, our usual reference point for this sort of thing.
Yeah, honestly, the whole mad science bit is a bit of a tangent. Like, yeah, mad science is good. Doing something like resurrecting the dinosaurs is mad science, but it's mad science that also had an actual benefit to us. Owning Drusselstein does not.

So since I feel like were arguing in circles, heres an idea for what might be good to search for in our last 5 hero spots

Celena
Occult Hero
Intrigue Hero
Terraformer
Heroball Fodder Slot

Terraforming is the last INdustry we need some focus on, Occult and Intrigue are the last 2 stats that need help, and a slot where we get some extra guys to use in heroballs is always good. If we don't want to try that we can always get another intruge or occult unit, or save it incase we find a hero we really, really want later.
I want Fredzilla. Past that...Eh?
 
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Yeah, but...Like...The whole point of Technor's rant is that Doof needs to be pragmatic, to actually think through the consequences of his actions. And i'm not convinced the insanity is a vital component. The weirdness, maybe, the INSANITY, no. Ludivine would still have 40 Learning, whether or not she also has a 1-in-6 chance of doing the wrong action due to her terminal level of scatterbrained-ness. We can do mad science without being insane. Hell, Xanay does mad science (I mean, Coldstone, the Steel Clan, Coyote, his power armor), but one of the reasons he's effective is because he's (generally) able to avoid falling into the tropes and doing stupid stuff for reasons of his pride. We should keep doing mad science, but BEING an insane person is not actually an asset. Doof's...Provecalities have been a hindrance on countless occasions.
Xanatos jerking around a clan of Gargoyles and failing to achieve immortality might look very impressive, but Doofenshmirtz is a man that regularly rewrites the laws of the universe and preforms miracles in an afternoon. Xanatos just outsources his mad science to proper mad scientists. I know who I'd prefer playing.

Putting aside the fact that I'm not sure how one relates to the other, it wouldn't negate the fact that we did it in the first place. Malf would definitely remember this. Mirage and Goofy probably would as well.

And going by the "all the responsibilities that implies" bit there's probably a non-zero amount of consequences to just letting it go, and even if there weren't if we just let go would mean we burned at least one action for absolutely nothing, at best.

Like, even with the pass votes the QM's still felt the need to point out, and write down, that this is a dumb idea. I won't argue that there arent some benefits, but I don't really get why you're using the mad scientists as a point of reference for this and not Mirage, our usual reference point for this sort of thing.
Because I want to play Doofquest, not Miragequest. We heed Mirage's advice so we can more effectively do the things we want to do. Or do you seriously want to play a quest about sound business practices and safe long-term investments? A quest where we bury the hatchet with Doom because it's pointless and instead dedicate the actions to Tax Avoidance?

Personally, I am here for the petty villainy and mad science, not to run a business simulator.
 
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Xanatos jerking around a clan of Gargoyles and failing to achieve immortality might look very impressive, but Doofenshmirtz is a man that regularly rewrites the laws of the universe and preforms miracles in an afternoon. Xanatos just outsources his mad science to proper mad scientists.
I mean, no? Xanay built lots of his tech himself. And, yeah, Doof can do that. But he has no mind for application. Give Xanay ONE of Doof's inators, and he'd conquer the world. Doof can become competent while retaining the charm that makes him Doof.

Because I want to play Doofquest, not Miragequest. We heed Mirage's advice so we can more effectively do the things we want to do. Or do you seriously want to play a quest about sound business practices and safe long-term investments?

Personally, I am here for the petty villainy and mad science, not to run a business simulator.
Yeah, uh...No offense, but...Doof is not an aspirational figure, in the original show? His name literally contains the German word for "idiot". He was once thwarted by a potted plant. Mad science is fun, I love doing that, and listening to Mirage all the time does sound deathly dull, but that doesn't mean we should give in to every stupid impulse that arises from our fevered mind. Doofquest is, in many ways, the story of a cartoon villain winning and then having to cope with the reality of...ACTUALLY RUNNING A LARGE ORGANIZATION. The old Doof LOST. Every single time. He wasted his potential on petty revenge. We shouldn't change entirely, but we should get smarter about this. If you want to be like original model Doof, then OK, sure, but...Original model Doof spent most of his time getting fucked over due to his own bad decisions. We need to change. Not entirely, mad science is still very useful, and a little petty revenge here and there is its own reward, but...We do need to be a bit more sensible. One thing that has arguably been the theme of this entire quest: This is not Phineas and Ferb. If this were, Syndrome would have been fine next episode, and Perry wouldn't be...Well...Yeah. Our actions have consequences now. It's time for Doof to face reality.

Coyote, Janus, and Ludivine all agree it's a good idea. And they are the smartest three members of the council.
Nys, I know you're joking, but, seriously, come on. Ludivine hardly gives a shit, Wile has no sense of risk assessment, and Janus is a misanthrope.
 
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Because I want to play Doofquest, not Miragequest. We heed Mirage's advice so we can more effectively do the things we want to do. Or do you seriously want to play a quest about sound business practices and safe long-term investments?
No, I fully get the urge to do things that line up with Doof and not Mirage. I'm not opposed to that.

But like, the three people who voted yes are
1. Coyote, who is a. Voting yes to get back at Drusselstein and b. who will generally vote along the lines of high risk action
2. Ludivine, who votes her preferences randomly
3. Janus, who has his own problems, and wants this mainly so he can get around laws.

Like there's a lot of arguements to be made for the idea, but I don't feel like noting the fact that these three people voted for this is a great arguement to use for the validity of the idea.
 
You claim they are the smartest councilers, yet they were not smart enough to join DEI on their own terms. Curious
So you're saying the wisest member ls of DEI are Tobe and Dennis? *Nods sagely* That checks out.

Give Xanay ONE of Doof's inators, and he'd conquer the world. Doof can become competent while retaining the charm that makes him Doof.
And yet, when Xanatos needed an inator built that could travel dimensions, he went to Doofenshmirtz for it. Because he can't make 'em. We don't become "competent" by trying to mimick a master at his specialty, we become competent by committing to our own field of mastery.

Because let me tell you this in advance, we're never going to beat Xanatos by playing the same game he's playing. You keep saying thay we should start playing the same game everybody else is playing, which is a game where we're not good at and have no incentive to play, instead of playing our own game, where we make the rules.

The old Doof LOST. Every single time. He wasted his potential on petty revenge. We shouldn't change entirely, but we should get smarter about this.
We are getting smarter about this. Say, by acquiring a country we can do Mad Science in without the risk of a government agent busting in to stop us?

No, I fully get the urge to do things that line up with Doof and not Mirage. I'm not opposed to that.

But like, the three people who voted yes are
1. Coyote, who is a. Voting yes to get back at Drusselstein and b. who will generally vote along the lines of high risk action
2. Ludivine, who votes her preferences randomly
3. Janus, who has his own problems, and wants this mainly so he can get around laws.

Like there's a lot of arguements to be made for the idea, but I don't feel like noting the fact that these three people voted for this is a great arguement to use for the validity of the idea.
Ludivine also points out that having an European backwater country to call your own is very good for mad science, and that's my main argument: We can and should acquire it for mad science. We can do other things with Drusselstein, but mad science and intrigue are the primary reasons why it's valuable.
 
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And yet, when Xanatos needes an inator built that could travel dimensions, he went to Doofenshmirtz for it. Because he can't make 'em.
It's not like becoming sane would somehow remove Inators. Hell, if anything, i'd expect one of our main buffs from self-actualization to be the Inator Table skewing towards the positive.

We are getting smarter about this. Say, by acquiring a country we can do Mad Science in without the risk of a government agent busting in to stop us?
The feds aren't doing that now. They have their grievances with us, but, really, they've barely TOUCHED us. Partly because we don't actually do much, partly because, well, we're a megacorp CEO and they know they can't fight us on open terms. It's not like they're gonna send hit squads after us. I mean, unless we do something absurdly stupid. Like, "Even Wile's atrophied sense of risk assessment says no" stupid. This is a solution in search of a problem.
 
Also we were told cause of our current situation that Martial is less valuable, but by starting to invade other countries and stuff, martial becomes just as valuable as say, stewardship, for expanding our influence.

And if we invade Drusselstein and have a country, law, people, etc. Already formed, then when we continue the expansion into other dimensions we already have a people, law, order, etc.

Also just because we can colonize another dimension doesn't mean people will willingly settle there. Having Drusselstein means we have people to settle the new dimensions we colonize.

It's a strong foundation for expanding our reach to multiple dimensions.
 
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Also we were told cause of our current situation that Martial is less valuable, but by starting to invade other countries and stuff, martial becomes just as valuable as say, stewardship, for expanding our influence.

And if we invade Drusselstein and have a country, law, people, etc. Already formed, then when we continue the expansion into other dimensions we already have a people, law, order, etc.

Also just because we can colonize another dimension doesn't mean people will willingly settle there. Having Drusselstein means we have people to settle the new dimensions we colonize.

A foundation for a multi dimensional empire
I don't WANT a multi-dimensional empire, Nys. That would not actually help us much I don't think. Knowing ABOUT other dimensions, giving them a look in and all, sure, but actively colonizing multiple ones...Eh. Largely, I would just want to establish diplomacy with the natives. Also, like...There are plenty of things we can do with Martial that don't involve causing an international incident. Hell, we JUST GOT a team of supervillains designed specifically to do that sort of thing.
 
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