I did the math and as long as we do actions with 35% chance of success or less we are net benefiting from Joking Around. And considering high DC actions are a thing... If we find one in the sweet spot of 10% chance of success we get 9 times more crit success chance (1% to 9%) and a third less crit fail chance (9% to 6%).


Still sounds like a bit of a niche case...then again, I don´t quite understand the math indicating that the new Joking Around is worse than the old one
 
We have a hard cap on hero slots dude.

That plays badly with hero caps, so we have a mechanical problem there.

Sigh...

I was making a joke. I've added a emoji so that it's more obvious now.

I know about the hero cap.

Didn't we make Ludivine our councillor and didn't that take her out of circulation for purposes of actually taking National Learning actions?
The increased crit fail chance applies to heros AND learning councilors. By our councilor having omni-disciplinary we've avoided it on that front.

As Learning actions tend to have very specialized categories without easily-transferable skills, learning actions by default have a 5% increased crit failure chance if the unit assigned is not a specialist in that area. This applies to both councilors and heroes.
 
Sigh...

I was making a joke. I've added a emoji so that it's more obvious now.

I know about the hero cap.
Sorry, since this is very specifically a discussion of mechanics, I'm bringing those issues up seriously, not as a way of correcting you or arguing with you, but because it needs to be said.

I don't want us to feel inhibited from mentioning mechanical issues in a discussion of whether new rules are balanced or not, y'know?

The increased crit fail chance applies to heros AND learning councilors. By our councilor having omni-disciplinary we've avoided it on that front.
Ahhh. But apparently, giving that to Doof would have been too overpowered?
 
I did the math and as long as we do actions with 35% chance of success or less we are net benefiting from Joking Around. And considering high DC actions are a thing... If we find one in the sweet spot of 10% chance of success we get 9 times more crit success chance (1% to 9%) and a third less crit fail chance (9% to 6%).
The problem is that we will very rarely have an incentive to take an action with a 35% or lower chance of success and specifically use a toon character for that action.
 
I'm mostly content with the changes. They make sense for the setting and make the mechanics feel more immersive. I particularly like the Learning changes- not the least because we're in the best position to benefit from it and it'll only really hurt everyone else.

I also am content because this will lead to some suffering for Doom, as he seems to apply Joking Around to his corporation:

[97+35]+28+26+4=190 [Lobby[ing] against the SRA] (March/April 2016 Rival Reports|Turn 8)
[92+56]+27+33+8=216 [Release updated flying cars] (May/June 2017 Rival Reports|Turn 17)
 
Sorry, since this is very specifically a discussion of mechanics, I'm bringing those issues up seriously, not as a way of correcting you or arguing with you, but because it needs to be said.

I don't want us to feel inhibited from mentioning mechanical issues in a discussion of whether new rules are balanced or not, y'know?

Ahhh. But apparently, giving that to Doof would have been too overpowered?
Kings don't get the penalty according to the discord. Hence, Doof reduces it.
 
I did the math and as long as we do actions with 35% chance of success or less we are net benefiting from Joking Around. And considering high DC actions are a thing... If we find one in the sweet spot of 10% chance of success we get 9 times more crit success chance (1% to 9%) and a third less crit fail chance (9% to 6%).

Yikes. The potential malus is more than double the potential benefits. (25% to 11%).
 
Honestly, maybe we should just wait for an official response on the new Toon traits? That way we could more constructively hash out some kind of compromise, for one.
 
What do you mean "compromise" ?

Well, the QMs quite clearly thought that Joking Around needed an overhaul to work better with what will essentially be "Doofquest 2.0".

Prudent idea, but the way the overhaul is worded right now, it got people worried that now, our Toon Operatives (a rather significant part of our powerbase, among other things) will become useless at best and outright counterproductive at worst - meaning that we need to somehow reconcile the QMs desire to adapt this trait to a changing meta narrative with our desire to not have our Toon units become utter garbage in the process.

*That´s* what I meant by "compromise".
 
Okay, after discussion, we've decided to return Joking Around to its original form. Limiting the maximum critical failure and success to their relevant base chance should prevent anything overly unreasonable, we hope. We do reserve the right to change it back again if it proves very necessary.
 
Okay, after discussion, we've decided to return Joking Around to its original form. Limiting the maximum critical failure and success to their relevant base chance should prevent anything overly unreasonable, we hope. We do reserve the right to change it back again if it proves very necessary.

Like if something like my Impossible Omake happened and we got like 7 critical rolls in a single Turn?
 
Infiltration Mechanics

As part of our general policy of making things clearer, we're beginning to lay down explicit mechanics for infiltrating enemies and the doing of sneaky things to them.

There are three levels of info security a piece of information can be held at, assuming it is being hidden at all, depending on the degree to which it can reasonably be disguised.

Tier 1: Information available by necessity to rank-and-file DEI employees, ex. Upcoming construction projects, major purchases, and other projects that require large-scale work.

Tier 2: Information or resources provided only to your hero units. Ex. The existence of magic, other dimensions, most of your research options, your secretive black ops work.

Tier 3: Information held only by you and your direct Council. Ex. The fact that you have Flubber samples for research, the location of your Crystal Key, etc.

Note that things can change security levels- for example, on the turn a unit is working on the Other-Dimensionator, the Crystal Key must logically be in hero unit hands until the thing is complete and will thus be at level 2. Information is much harder to put back in its box than an object, obviously.

Likewise, there are three levels of infiltration.

In Tier 1 infiltration, you have placed informants and potential saboteurs into a company.

In Tier 2 infiltration, you have successfully infiltrated the enemy's hero unit list.

In Tier 3 infiltration, you have penetrated the enemy's inner circle of secrets and knowledge. Do note that if a faction has no council-equivalent or is small enough to not need one, this level is impossible. Small or command-focused factions are fundamentally slightly more secure than larger ones. In practice though this level is very hard to reach and its unlikely anyone will manage to do it to you unless you make some ill-thought council choices, especially regarding Opinion.


Infiltration Actions:
The base DC to infiltrate at Tier 1 is:
Base Infiltration DC= 50+Intrigue of King or Councilor equivalent+Relevant traits and company bonuses-penalties

Each higher tier of infiltration increases the DC by 50. However, having the lower level in place reduces the DC by 25, for a total increase of only 25.

You will not be able to infiltrate a faction unless you have already set up a spy network in the relevant area (Red Car, Olympia Network, etc).

The base DC will also be used when you are infiltrating with a purpose- say, trying to steal an item or discover a specific secret rather than performing a general infiltration. For every rank of security your target is behind, add 25 to the DC. For every rank of infiltration you have, reduce it by 25 (canceling out a level of security). Then we add whatever logical bonuses or penalties might be in place for a certain target, and there we go.

If this all sounds complicated don't worry, it's our job to do all this math. We're just letting you know how all this is calculated from now on instead of the previous 'eyeball it'.

So let's use DEI as an example.

We start with our base 50. Mirage has higher Intrigue than Doofenshmirtz, so we add her 31 (soon to be increased, but I'm using the numbers currently on the sheet). Diseased Lunatic grants a +7 to this DC.

So the base DC to infiltrate DEI is 50+31+7=88. In addition, Gary the Goozim grants a -5 to the target's roll if they are operating within DEI headquarters.

Stealing the Zero-Point technology was a tier 2 security action, granting +50 to the roll, so under this system the DC to perform what happened last turn was 138. However, each rank of infiltration the target had accomplished reduces that by 25.

Fallback Actions

In addition, the topic of stealing provides us with the chance to talk about what we now call Fallback Actions.

Sometimes, you perform an action that is risky. Even a regular failure might pose a problem of some kind, whether discovery or injury. As such, if one takes certain actions and fails, one then performs a Fallback Action of a different type using the same unit. Success and failure on the roll will lead to different effects.

One of the most notable sorts of Fallback Actions is a Heist, so let's give an example to show what I mean.

You've sent Mirage to try and steal Granny Crockett's cookie recipe you remember liking, but refuse to pay for store-bought frozen cookies. The DC is 100. If she succeeds, the action just completes, nothing unusual happens. But let's say Mirage gets a 72, which means she fails!

The Fallback Action for this heist will be listed in the action in question. For this example, it's a DC 50 Martial roll. Mirage must attempt to make this DC. Her Martial is low, so this will be difficult.

On a Critical Success, Mirage gets away with the recipe and without her identity being discovered. Phew! Action saved.

On a normal success, Mirage must choose: does she get away clean but without the target, or does she take the delicious cookie goodness with her at the cost of your involvement becoming known? You get a vote.

On a failure, you fail to obtain the target and your identity becomes known. Bad times.

On a critical failure, Mirage has been captured by Granny Crockett, leaving your hero unit list until she can be retrieved. If she can be. Also neither of you would ever live it down.

Other examples of Fallback Actions include Flubber technology (Learning, Fallback Diplo) and Large Carnivorous Dinosaurs (Learning, Fallback Martial).
 
So, we either have a Intrigue specced enemy, or we are infiltrated at the hero rank, or both.
 
Stealing the Zero-Point technology was a tier 2 security action, granting +50 to the roll, so under this system the DC to perform what happened last turn was 138. However, each rank of infiltration the target had accomplished reduces that by 25.
???
[ ] Steal ???
DC 120
54+??+??+30 (???)+?=137
Decent Success

The, like, third or fourth thing you did after you woke up from your two month long nap was what you liked to do every couple of months: go and look at all the stuff you took from Syndrome! You really can't help yourself, that was one of the most successful schemes you've ever had! But when you opened up the safe to bask in your ill-gotten goods, you discovered something horrifying! The zero-point energy tech was gone!

This… isn't that catastrophic, since you made backups of the blueprints and everything, but it'll make it harder without having something physical to work off of! And it really makes you mad that someone took your stuff!

The DC for researching Zero Point Energy tech has increased!
Someone Else has gained access to an example of ZP Tech!
Preliminary investigation has left little to no evidence as to who it was that took your stuff; investigation is likely to be very hard!
So, just to be clear, this is from now on out, correct? The DC being 120 this previous turn has nothing to do with the new mechanics?
 
So, we either have a Intrigue specced enemy, or we are infiltrated at the hero rank, or both.
It is possible, but unlikely that neither are the case, especially the first one. The DC for the final roll was 120, which while it is technically a different system, is a lot higher then what Tier 2 Infiltration would have gotten them. 138-25 (tier 1) is 113, barely below the final DC, while tier 2 would lower it to back down to 88. they also had a +83 of Bonuses (30 from an unknown source, a single digit of loyalty, and the hero and kings stats both in the double digits) . It's fully possible they had managed to Infiltrate our hero list and that was what the +30 was in the old system, but its also possible that was a bonus for some other thing, potentially a long term infiltration.

The King would have a maximum of a +42 in Intrigue, almost certainly lower since it's unlikely they'd send a low loyalty, low intrigue hero to do this. We can safely write out most kings actually specced into Intrigue (Xanatos, Toffee) because of that, they're simply to high. The 2 characters i am most suspisous of being the mole if our hero list was compromised, Mez (Joined right before this) and Tobe (Joined at Random, has gained 0 Loyalty during his time here), would lower that number to being less then 20 which no King except Doof has tmk.

It's likely even if a Mole has infiltrated the list, they didn't steal the Tech unless they themselves are less then 20 Intrigue. There are 12 Heroes we have that could have done it for another King with mid levels of Intrigue, and even then, its likely to be someone closer to Judge Doom or Shego since its literally impossible for it to be Toffee or Xanatos.

Alan Bradley 19
Queen Lizzie 18
Malifishmertz 18 (+10 vs. Drusselstein)
Genghis Khan 18 (-20 To tech)
Wile E. Coyote 18 (+10 to Hunting Nemeses on Nationals, +5/-5 Coinflip)
Juniper 16
Janus Lee 15
Moseby 15
Tom Lucitor 15 (Limited availability)
Max 12
Gomez 11
Roddy Blair 10

We can safely write out Khan, since we're the reason he is here, the rest are technically fair game.
 
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