....Whaaaaaah...?

ROGER considers US the better and stronger man?

HE envies US?

>is itterly flabbergasted<

Awesome omake is all I can say and that I hope it gets canonized

Hope so far more than for my dinky little thing awkwardly wedging the "Dinosaurs" sitcom into the Quest´s verse, in fact.

It makes sense based on what we know in Canon. Doof comes to America 16 or more years ago and starts a family. Roger definitely comes to America *after* Doof. Roger actually becomes Mayor over the course of the P&F series. But Doof wants to be in charge right from the start. Doof has a 16 year old kid, but Roger despite being only a couple of years younger doesn't. Out of all the cities in America, Roger came to the one city that his brother was in, and decided to take the one thing he knew that his Brother wanted.

Roger isn't as petty or spiteful as Heinz. So he clearly did it for some other reason. We never actually find out what that reason is though. Roger also clearly loves his brother. He spent 20 years restoring Heinz's masterpiece painting in magic carpet Ride, for instance as penance for accidentally destroying it. So not only does roger care for Heinz, he also cares about Heinz's feelings, and also his accomplishments. Again, it took him 20 years to recreate his brother's masterpiece. so he knows how talented his brother is, even without his Inators. But Roger also never misses an opportunity to one up Heinz. At kickball, at Golf, with the teddy Bear Heinz saved up for, writing his name on their mother too... These are not the actions of a man who is confident in his superiority. These are the actions of a Mna who feels he needs to prove he is better than Heinz. That is to say, someone who is jealous.

But why is Roger jealous of his Brother? It's definitely not Heinz's relationship with his parents. It's not because Heinz is successful financially or politically. So what does Heinz have that Roger does not? Heinz has only 2 things, failure, and a family.

The Doofenshmirtz family is a clear Golden Child/Scapegoat child abuse dynamic. and one of the most common issues that Golden children have when they grow up is that they are terrified of failing (and becoming the scapegoat). if Heinz is jealous of anything, it's that failure hasn't destroyed Doof (like he suspects it would destroy him) and that Doof has actually broken free of the cycle of abuse and managed to have his own family (that Roger is not really a part of). Honestly, it's the only characterization that makes sense to me.
 
Man, Taking Wacky comedies like P&F seriously always leads to something VERY interesting.
I mean, The abuse dynamic has always been present in the Doof subplots, and his bits with Perry have always felt more like psychotherapy and friendship than normal hero villain dynamics, even the friendly ones. So I don't think I'm coming out of left field here. One of the reasons that Heinz spent 9 years searching for a doll for his daughter is because he felt insecure about how good a father he was. Like, Vanessa even sings a song about it where we get to see Doof's extremely overenthusiastic parenting.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxFnxBa12Vk

That's not subtext, by the way. It's Text. Here's from the episode Transcript:
Doofenshmirtz: (holds up Mary McGuffin doll) No, your happiness! Remember when you said if I got you a little Mary McGufffin doll, I'd be the world's greatest dad?
Vanessa: Yeah, when I was like, seven.
Doofenshmirtz: At long last I have found one! I have been scouring the Internet and... and Garage sales trying to find the discontinued doll.
Vanessa: Wow, I can't believe you remembered I wanted this.
Doofenshmirtz: Remembered?! I never stop looking!
Vanessa: Really?
Doofenshmirtz: You know, I may be an evil scientist, but it doesn't take a degree purchased from the Internet with your ex-wife's money, to know how special and important you are to me.

Doof really, desperately wants to be a good parent, because his own were just, pretty objectively, the worst parents since Genma Saotome.

EDIT: That song also marks the change in Vanessa's relationship with Doof (along with her birthday party, and Platypus Controlling me).
 
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Wow @Stratagemini, your omake had me tearing me up a bit. Despite my dislike of DVV, it has given me insight I hadn't thought of onto characters. And I can relate with Roger. Failure is one of my greatest fears and hinders me from the unknown. Heinz is strong to be able to bounce back from failure like that.
 
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I'm glad! But now I'm also wondering how you managed to get 2,082 pages into a DVV quest while disliking DVV? Did you... get lost?
I am a big hero fan(heroes in general, not just BH6) and seeing how bad the setting could go with villains victorious even if you don't include Fridge Logic tends to get me a little angry. If the quest wasn't centered on Heinz and had known the villain winning would pertain to the whole setting, I would not care for it. This was the first time of me hearing about DVV in the first place. I am here for character interactions, hearing of Disney properties I didn't know of before, and the expert way the crossover welding is handled.
 
I am a big hero fan(heroes in general, not just BH6) and seeing how bad the setting could go with villains victorious even if you don't include Fridge Logic tends to get me a little angry. If the quest wasn't centered on Heinz and had known the villain winning would pertain to the whole setting, I would not care for it. This was the first time of me hearing about DVV in the first place. I am here for character interactions, hearing of Disney properties I didn't know of before, and the expert way the crossover welding is handled.
That's reasonable. The CMs are really good at all those things. I've been trying to get some of the minorly obscure Disney properties (like Best Friends Whenever) in to no effect, but they (and by they, I mostly mean @weredrago2 ) constantly come up with weird Disney stuff I've never even heard of, Like Combos Ninos.
 
At kickball, at Golf, with the teddy Bear Heinz saved up for, writing his name on their mother too... These are not the actions of a man who is confident in his superiority. These are the actions of a Mna who feels he needs to prove he is better than Heinz. That is to say, someone who is jealous.

To me, these moments were the *Exact opposite* of your opinion.

I always saw them as Roger rubbing his superiority and "being a golden child" into Heinz´ face and being an arrogant little brat.

Then again, I identify with Doof *A lot*, so of course I´d take his side...
 
That's reasonable. The CMs are really good at all those things. I've been trying to get some of the minorly obscure Disney properties (like Best Friends Whenever) in to no effect, but they (and by they, I mostly mean @weredrago2 ) constantly come up with weird Disney stuff I've never even heard of, Like Combos Ninos.

Huh, was that Omake not made Canon? That stinks if so, I really liked it.
 
Huh, was that Omake not made Canon? That stinks if so, I really liked it.
It was not. They didn't think the time travel fit well, or something. Not sure why.
I don't actually have a lot of canon Omake compared to how many Omake I've written. Only 7, but the ones I do have have been pretty useful to the quest. One let us keep Juniper around a bit longer till I could convince people to recruit her, for instance. Another one established Janna gave Marco an I.M. Cazador monogramed robe.
 
To me, these moments were the *Exact opposite* of your opinion.

I always saw them as Roger rubbing his superiority and "being a golden child" into Heinz´ face and being an arrogant little brat.

Then again, I identify with Doof *A lot*, so of course I´d take his side...
The two are not mutually exclusive. It is somewhat common for people with low self-esteem to hide it by acting haughty and dismissive of other people as a coping mechanism, talking up their accomplishments and putting others down to quell their internal self-doubt. So, it's possible the answer's both. And the idea that Roger constantly felt the need to prove his superiority, to prove his golden child status makes sense, especially since he had Heinz as a good example of how his parents were likely to respond to their child "failing" them. Roger fears failure, that even one crack will send his life tumbling down, and the idea that he may some admiration for Doof, his brother who has done basically nothing BUT be a failure his whole life, but keeps going and even seems happy in spite of it...Yeah, makes sense.
 
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The two are not mutually exclusive. It is somewhat common for people with low self-esteem to hide it by acting haughty and dismissive of other people as a coping mechanism, talking up their accomplishments and putting others down to quell their internal self-doubt. So, it's possible the answer's both. And the idea that Roger constantly felt the need to prove his superiority, to prove his golden child status makes sense, especially since he had Heinz as a good example of how his parents were likely to respond to their child "failing" them. Roger fears failure, that even one crack will send his life tumbling down, and the idea that he may some admiration for Doof, his brother who has done basically nothing BUT be a failure his whole life, but keeps going and even seems happy in spite of it...Yeah, makes sense.

Just saying that to me in Canon, Roger didn´t seem to really care about Heinz past some superficial politeness.

Because of that, I always truly saw *Heinz* burying the hatchet in the Quest as him being the better man - basically going "you know what? what happened *happened', let´s at least try to explicitly be nice to each other from now on".

Not that I mind either the Doofenshmirtz brothers burying the hatchet or this omake - just that I never expected Roger to *actively look up to us* or even LIKE us all that much past "well, he´s my older brother and because of him, I got a niece I am somewhat close to".
 
To me, these moments were the *Exact opposite* of your opinion.

I always saw them as Roger rubbing his superiority and "being a golden child" into Heinz´ face and being an arrogant little brat.

Then again, I identify with Doof *A lot*, so of course I´d take his side...
Just saying that to me in Canon, Roger didn´t seem to really care about Heinz past some superficial politeness.

Because of that, I always truly saw *Heinz* burying the hatchet in the Quest as him being the better man - basically going "you know what? what happened *happened', let´s at least try to explicitly be nice to each other from now on".

Not that I mind either the Doofenshmirtz brothers burying the hatchet or this omake - just that I never expected Roger to *actively look up to us* or even LIKE us all that much past "well, he´s my older brother and because of him, I got a niece I am somewhat close to".

I feel the need to point out something rather important to keep in mind whether you're the scapegoat or the golden child, you're still abused, just in a different way. Being in Roger's position growing up can mess you up just as much as Heinz's and what can be seen as someone just being a dick can also stem from deep seeded psychological trauma. It's actually pretty common.
 
Wasn't there a episode where Roger recreated a painting Heinz made in his honor?

I mean sure Heinz misunderstood and destroyed the painting out of jealousy before he understood it was a nice thing for him Roger was doing, but the thought was nice.
 
Wasn't there a episode where Roger recreated a painting Heinz made in his honor?

I mean sure Heinz misunderstood and destroyed the painting out of jealousy before he understood it was a nice thing for him Roger was doing, but the thought was nice.
He spent 20 years restoring it. Note, by the by, this is literally the only time Roger is involved in a tragic backstory while being an adult, and the pain he causes Heinz is a clear accident he takes great pains to make up for. He's maybe a bit full of himself, but I think it's clear Roger is a good dude.
 
I feel the need to point out something rather important to keep in mind whether you're the scapegoat or the golden child, you're still abused, just in a different way. Being in Roger's position growing up can mess you up just as much as Heinz's and what can be seen as someone just being a dick can also stem from deep seeded psychological trauma. It's actually pretty common.

Trust me, I know how it feels to be the scapegoat.

Another reason why I sympathize with Heinz far more than with Roger - his plight is very familiar to me.
 
Trust me, I know how it feels to be the scapegoat.

Another reason why I sympathize with Heinz far more than with Roger - his plight is very familiar to me.
Well, that's fair. But it may be a good idea to consider that while the "golden child" definitely derives benefits from not being the scapegoat, they are themselves being abused in a different way.

If you have been the scapegoat, you are fully within your rights to say "the abuse suffered by the scapegoat is worse than the abuse suffered by the golden child." But the 'golden child' did not create the situation, did not choose the situation, and may, MAY in later years come to terms with how they have been abused and learn constructive lessons.

So I think this take on Roger's personality is valid. It doesn't match Heinz's impression of Roger, but of all the people in all the world, who has the most reason not to really understand Roger? No one could ever blame Heinz for not having an accurate understanding of Roger. It would be a miracle if Heinz did understand Roger, when their parents went out of their way to prevent the two from really connecting or bonding and constantly used each of the two boys as a sort of tool for tormenting and abusing the other.
 
Admittedly, I don´t know where on the Scapegoat vs. Golden Child scale I would fall and if the problems I faced were even deliberate from my family´s side...so I am the wrong person to ask anyway.
 
Well, that's fair. But it may be a good idea to consider that while the "golden child" definitely derives benefits from not being the scapegoat, they are themselves being abused in a different way.

If you have been the scapegoat, you are fully within your rights to say "the abuse suffered by the scapegoat is worse than the abuse suffered by the golden child." But the 'golden child' did not create the situation, did not choose the situation, and may, MAY in later years come to terms with how they have been abused and learn constructive lessons.

So I think this take on Roger's personality is valid. It doesn't match Heinz's impression of Roger, but of all the people in all the world, who has the most reason not to really understand Roger? No one could ever blame Heinz for not having an accurate understanding of Roger. It would be a miracle if Heinz did understand Roger, when their parents went out of their way to prevent the two from really connecting or bonding and constantly used each of the two boys as a sort of tool for tormenting and abusing the other.

To add to this. I am going to remind people that this is canon. So Doof actually has had it pointed out that the Golden Child dynamic is abusive as well.

I'd like to make my pitch. Even with his Malus, Goofy is the stronger hero for it. Technor is 32+4-10=26 and Goofy 28+4-5=27 But I'd like to make a altnerate argument for putting Goofy on CJ and Technor on Doof. And I will do it, in Omake form.

Doctor to Doctor
"Dr. Doofenshmirtz. It is good to see you here, please take a seat."

The doctor rubs the back of his neck, awkwardness, Technor suspected. "Right. Sorry, just a little weird to do this, me being your boss."

"Not at all. One of the biggest problems in organizations can be those too high up unable to admit weakness. I believe you finally coming here represents a great deal of strength. " Also, privately, Technor did find supervillains the most fascinating of patients, and though it was slightly poor professionalism, he was curious about his boss. "Don't worry, everything in here is completely confidential." He may have been a supervillain, but some things were beyond the pale.

"Right. So, um, is there a couch I need to sit down on or-"

"I have one if you want, but they aren't necessary, would you prefer a comfy chair instead?"

"Oh, that's one of the ergonomic chairs!" Doofenshmirtz rushed to it. "Ugh, so much better."

"Back troubles?" You ask.

"CJ tried to replace my chair with a throne." He groans, perhaps the neck was simply physical discomfort then? "So, uh, how does this work now. We talk about my mother right?"

There is a second pause as Technor is only able to hold in his contempt thanks extreme restraint and the fact that his face is technically only a projection for patient benefit. "Freudian analysis isn't standard in the field these days." He offered neutrally. "Instead, I'd like to ask you what you would like to talk about."

"Oh, well, it's just a few things. I mean, it all started I was programming, the new Administrator AI."

"The one who insists on being called Princess Coffee Java?" Technor asked, unable to entirely keep the interest out. The idea of a robot patient was... interesting. On the one hand, similar circumstances might give him an advantage. On the other, he was programmed for human (and toon, and animal) psychology, and one did not send a Vet to treat humans. Not that it mattered right now, the other AI's were far too primitive to be that deep right now.

"Right, so, I programmed it, and Norm bugged me. Wanted a bedtime story, which I was so tired I read, and then well, I ended up programming CJ and it went wrong and called me father. Also when I woke up Norm was like 'you promised to think about it 10 months ago.'"

"This about what, if I may ask."

"About him being my son."

Technor noded, or more accurately tilts his entire body, because, well, no neck. "I see, and how does that make you feel?"

His fellow Doctor crosses his arms defensibly. "Not guilty, if that is what you are asking. Cause I don't. I mean, I'm not obligated to. He's just my creation, not my son. Just like an inator." Technor gives a small hum and he writes in his notes. "Hey, what are you writing? Are you writing something bad? I mean, it's not like I have a robot problem, I mean, I think you are great!"

"Of course," Technor responds, though even as he does acknowledge he is far beyond the Doctor's creations, suspicious are already forming in his circuits. "Please continue."

"Then, well, I saw Goofy reading her stories... CJ, that is. And he was just reading them to her like she was a child. Like, you, know, I used to read to Vanessa. It made me really uncomfortable and I've been talking a lot with Roger these days. He's my brother, always loved, always the lucky one. Only now I'm doing well instead and but I'm trying to bury the hatchet. But he's just so... he never thinks about me. I'm the one who thinks about him."

"I see." Technor says. It is fascinating how people can be so subconciously aware. Their seemingly unconnected ramblings forming connections that they can't see. "I apologize, but I must retract one of my previous statements. Would you be okay with telling me a bit about your childhood?"

"Ugh, no, I don't want to talk about that mess." Before Technor can even respond, Doofenshmirtz leans forward, "Anyways, so it all started when my parents missed my own birth." Technor found his vision fading as he was absorbed into the flashbacks.

They came one after the other, describing a litany of trauma that would be unbelievable had Technor not had so much experience with the unusual and supervillain. A lesser psycologist would not have been able to hand the level of flashbacks, being unable to write down their notes amid the sepia-toned trauma. Technor was thankfully superior, as he could commit notes to his memory bank. After what seemed like several hours, Doofenshmirtz finished and Technor found himself back in the office.

Privately, Technor felt that research into the time-distorting power of flashbacks was something that should be looked into. But lazers and machines were often the order of the day. Not that he could complain too much about that. Still, perhaps if he did this well, a grant might be considered. That, unfortunately, would have to wait. A quick check of his internal clock showed that even if it had not been hours, time was running short, and so he would, at best, only begin to be able to unravel the ball of issues that his current employer contained. "I see. That is quite a childhood. I'm very sorry you went through all that."

"Yeah, but it's fine now. I mean, I rule the Tri-State area. And I defeated my most hated rival. I'm great!" The tremble on the third sentence had a litany of implications, sadly, they were on a schedule and it was best to focus on one thing for now.

"Right. For now, I'd like to leave you with some thoughts and insights in the field of psychology. First, are you familiar with the concept of 'Golden Child and Scapegoat'?" Doofenshmirtz shook his head, and so Technor continued. "It is a type of psychological phenomena that manifests amongst abusive households."

"Abusive? I mean traumatic sure but-" Yet another thing they wouldn't have time for.

"In it, one child is designated as the golden child, a child who can do no wrong and is perfect. The other the scapegoat, can do no right and is terrible. The reasons why can vary; narcissistic projection, or giving the illusion of control. By scapegoating a child, all blame can be externalized to them, not unfortunately circumstances or the parent. By having a golden child, they can assure themselves that their scapegoating is rational and that they have a worthwhile legacy"

"Okay, okay I get it, I was the scapegoat and Roger the golden child-"

"But perhaps the most interesting thing is that both positions are considered abusive and damaging and lead to low self-esteem."

Doofenshmirtz stopped at that, confused. "Come again?"

"Both positions are abuse. The scapegoating issues are more apparent, as you are well aware. But the golden child experiences them as well. The projections the parents put on them cause them to need to be perfect. To constantly worry about not doing enough. And, when they fail, as everyone does, to find themselves paralyzed and unable to pick themselves up because failure is unacceptable."

"Okay, but like, Roger's not like that. Always so successful and happy. I mean, he's a little grumpy right, now, but that's because I won for once."

"They often feel the need to hide it, because they are taught that anger and sadness are for the scapegoat. That to show anything would imply they are like them."

"But... but Roger had everything. His parents love, the admiration of everybody."

"You mentioned that your father named his dog 'only-son'. Was Roger alive during that time?"

"I- he was like, only a few years old. Besides, once only-son got too old, my father went straight to Roger."

"Do you think Roger remembered 'only-son'?"

Doofenshmirtz frowned. "I don't see how he couldn't, given the way father would talk about him."

"So Roger lived his life being constantly reminded that his position as favored child could be replaced by a dog?"

"I-" Doofenshmirtz paused. "You know I never thought of it like that." Uncertainty in his voice. "I... let me think about this."

"Of course," Technor replied, silently setting a reminder to himself. Given Doofenshmirtz's previous avoidance issues, it was best not to let him sit on this for a year. "Now, on to Norm and Princess Coffee Java. I'd like to have you consider another phenomenon. Often abuse survivors." Survivors was the best to use. Given Doofenshmirtz's discomfort with the word 'abuse', Technor suspected that he would not like to be called a victim, a word with connotations of weakness and passivity. "Often, they tend to worry about children of their own. Worried that the will pass on that abuse-"

"Okay, I get it. I see where you are going with this." Doofenshmirtz interrupted. "I'm afraid of calling them my children because I don't want to be my father. I get it." Taking control of the conversation by preempting knowledge, Technor added to his notes. "But I have Vanessa."

"And from what I can see, you did a wonderful job raising a perfectly psychologically healthy teenager. However, I'd want you to consider, how did you feel when Vanessa was born?"

"Great, I mean scared obviously. But I was so happy to see my little girl."

"Happier than a boy?"

Doofenshmirtz gave a slight hum. "I mean, I guess. Actually, it felt like a relief."

"And your family was just Roger, and yourself, no sisters?" Technor asked, trusting his employer to make the connection.

"So... you are saying, I find it easier with Vanessa because she isn't a boy, and doesn't feel as much a repeat?"

"I think it is something to consider."

"But the ah 'Princess' is a girl..."

"And does that make you uncomfortable? More so than Norm?"

"Yes!" Technor let than hang in the moment, as Doofenshmirtz realized what he said. "Look, I mean, I can't treat them like my children, it wouldn't be fair to Vanessa."

"Has Vanessa expressed significant distress at them?"

"I mean, no but-"

"Vanessa is, and I feel you should give yourself some credit here. A young woman spreading her wings. But what I find most interesting is why you feel that it would be unfair to her."

"Well... I mean, other siblings wouldn't be fair to spring on her."

"I apologize doctor, but I have an appointment in about five minutes" Specifically destroying every non-energy efficient light you could find. "I think we've had a very productive conversation and I would highly encourage you to see my assistant about scheduling regular sessions. However, there is one last insight I wish you to consider, as you are a very intelligent man,and that is this. One of the effects of abuse households is making love seem like a limited resource."

Doofenshmirtz frowns at this, as Technor presses on. "That love for one child must come at the expense of another. I'd like you to consider that this is an aberration of relationships, and is not normal. That believing it is can cause problems not only in parent-child relationships, but in work, and other familial relationships as well, and I would encourage you to think about this."

With that, Technor turned and blasted himself through the wall.

"You, know." Said, the doctor, watching the other Doctor fly off. "I think I know why CJ felt the plaster expenses were so high for this building."



On a serious note, my sister is doing psychology as med school student, so I'm getting second-hand knowledge* when she talks about it. And make me start overanalyzing Doof until this was in my head..

*the worst kind of knowledge

@gleeman one of the parts of the abuse of scapegoat/ golden child is that it prevents and sabotages healthy sibling relations. The scapegoat sees the golden-child as unfairly loved, without understanding how fragile (and how constricting) that love is, and the golden child sees the scapegoat as a fuck up who just can't 'be good' without understanding that the game is rigged for them.
 
You know there's one episode in particular that stands out to me in terms of Roger's behavior. In the episode The Beak, Roger becomes afraid that the people of Danville will blame him for the supervillain attacks, and growing into a state where he seems to care more about his reputation than people's lives what does he decide to do?

He temporarily makes his brother mayor so that they'll blame him instead.

When the idea comes up that he's going to fail in some way, and more importantly the people are going to blame his failures on him, he immediately goes to a drastic measure to try to avoid it. More than that, he defaults the behavior that his parents instilled on him from an early age and tries to blame his brother. To me that speaks of someone who is utterly petrified of failure and falls back onto old scars and coping mechanisms when it comes into play, perfectly in line for someone who suffered the abuse of being the golden child growing up.
 
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Huh, was that Omake not made Canon? That stinks if so, I really liked it.

Ultimately, canonicity isn't really a measure of quality so much as a "how well does this fit into this particular story" metric. Sure there's a baseline bar for writing quality, but sometimes an omake just tells a story that doesn't fit with something the QM is planning, whether because it impinges on a major story beat or brings up a can of worms the QM isn't interested in opening, or what have you.

As an example, I could write an omake where Doof gives in to his worse impulses and builds an inator that mind controls everyone in the tri-state area into loving him because his deep seated issues prevent him from believing that anyone would care about him otherwise, culminating with Agent Russ returning only to be assigned to putting a bullet in Doof's brain because he's building a Flubber bomb to force the US to acknowledge him as a sovereign nation. It's something that could in theory happen if Doof went down that path, thematically it's entirely plausible, but even if I were the best writer in the world it still wouldn't and shouldn't be canonized because it's not the story either the QMs or the players are looking to tell here, especially not this far into the game.
 
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