But nothing stops us from getting Law with our own actions and MP support! It won't be much longer, if at all. We can't do the same with cultural heroes.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Astra Stargazer
Comma Queen
- Location
- In a book, somewhere around here...
You know, I missed the most obvious answer to the Patricians wanting to distribute land. Just deal with it every time it comes up.
Slave societies dealt with slave rebellions every couple of generations for several thousand years without changing their economic model. We can deal with the Patricians bitching and moaning and needing to be put back in their box every so often.
Slave societies dealt with slave rebellions every couple of generations for several thousand years without changing their economic model. We can deal with the Patricians bitching and moaning and needing to be put back in their box every so often.
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And once we get those megaprojects done, we still will not have the Culture Hero, when most of the work we'd be setting that hero to does not require those megaprojects be done first.
Take the culture hero while they're available.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Problem is, the vocal voters (not sure if minority) will knee-jerk to NO DL whatsoever. So we don't know what it will actually do nor it's narratives.
And boy will it cause a stability hit whenever we'd want to take it.
As a way to reduce the number of stupid fights our civilization gets into with itself, that one's an utter failure.
Keep in mind: If the government has the right to take away your lands, it's very much in your interests to never let anyone else ever be in control of the government.
To add on to what I just said, do keep in mind that AN said one of the ways we've avoided several civil wars in the past is by avoiding private land ownership. If we cross the line where people own land and not the state, we're in for some serious problems as they use their power over controlling land against us.
That's because the action is a powder keg. It can easily screw us over and the only time it comes up is when factions want to do it in extremes. We also likely don't have a sophisticated enough government to actually properly manage it at this point, and by the time we do, I can easily see the demand for it going by the wayside.
- Location
- Hell
[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Hero (-15 Culture)
[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Hero (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Mystic] Nothing
Noblesse Oblige please ;_;
Now imagine the Joyous Symphony bonus from having three heroes working together.
The law can start next turn.
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Hero (-15 Culture)
[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Hero (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Mystic] Nothing
Noblesse Oblige please ;_;
Now imagine the Joyous Symphony bonus from having three heroes working together.
The law can start next turn.
Astra Stargazer
Comma Queen
- Location
- In a book, somewhere around here...
[X] [Parl] Dryad Housing Act (Main Expand Forest, Priests +1 Faction Power, Yeoman approve, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Judge (Sec Enforce Justice)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Boost all subordinate loyalty (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Judge (Sec Enforce Justice)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Boost all subordinate loyalty (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
But we DO know some stuff about DL. AN has said before that double main DL may lead to the privatization of lands. We know repeated use is a road to feudalism. We know the patricians want it to establish themselves as power centres independent of the state. We know the rural elites would profit from it; hence why Yeomen and Patricians are for it. And so on.
I think that's enough information to conclude it's a bad idea, especially coupled with the Pandora's Box effect: We can't just try it out. Once it has been taken, the Patties can take it on their own. So there is no testing the waters. It's either full yes or full no. And given what we know about DL, the latter sounds the better option.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Yeah, I think with the whole parliamentary government we're going to have to deal with nobles and holdings sooner rather than later. But at the same time, I think it's important it's not just a concession on the part of the king or anything like that but something where both parties have restrictions and rights.
Having the nobles have enshrined rights over their land is iffy. Them having enshrined rights in exchange for the king/government having the right to inspect them and see that they meet certain standards? That's a lot more palatable and less disagreeable.
The reason this thread despises DL and balks at doing it now is that they don't know if they can hold the Patricians accountable if they do something sketchy (and this whole clusterfuck is a result of centuries of sketchy malpractice). And the Patricians want it to have a power they can force accountability/ have a degree of protection from the king with.
Getting someone who can reconcile those two groups and create a system where power is divided more but each group has checks on the other is really the key to getting the thread to play ball.
Having the nobles have enshrined rights over their land is iffy. Them having enshrined rights in exchange for the king/government having the right to inspect them and see that they meet certain standards? That's a lot more palatable and less disagreeable.
The reason this thread despises DL and balks at doing it now is that they don't know if they can hold the Patricians accountable if they do something sketchy (and this whole clusterfuck is a result of centuries of sketchy malpractice). And the Patricians want it to have a power they can force accountability/ have a degree of protection from the king with.
Getting someone who can reconcile those two groups and create a system where power is divided more but each group has checks on the other is really the key to getting the thread to play ball.
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Celebrate (Sec Improve Annual Festival)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Nothing
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Celebrate (Sec Improve Annual Festival)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Nothing
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
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Making the Patricians' positions less all-or-nothing helps, which is why I say vote subordinate commanders.
Also, thinking about it - there's an extra benefit to making more academies: Those who can't, teach. Between that and the extra time in education reducing the number of people trying to take any given position at any given moment...
And we really need to lock in Division of Power.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
[X] [Parl] Dryad Housing Act (Main Expand Forest, Priests +1 Faction Power, Yeoman approve, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Judge (Sec Enforce Justice)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Hero (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Judge (Sec Enforce Justice)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Hero (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
You're so close to being right. C'mon max, figure out the truth, I believe in you.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
So...are the Saffron Islands a Great Power on the Mediterranean now?
And this would take an advancement in law to properly apply.
Seriously people, you don't have to take both the Law and Library, but please do take the Law if you only want one.
The big issue is that the players have pushed the Ymaryn into a very unnatural shape for their level of tech and particularly cultural development. The various actors in Ymaryn society can see this, and know that such anachronistic decisions can happen again. They want the power to say no, so they can start exploiting the local optima they can see are right there begging to be exploited.
They can't see why it's foolish in the long term to just clear cut the forests, or to keep slaves, or to consider foreigners and women as being less than real people. Once we give away the levers of control over society, then the natural tendency of people to optimise very hard for the short term will come into play, and we will have less tools to stop them.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
No. I want a cultural hero. We can grab the Law at any time if need be by investing a secondary action. We can't get a Culture hero.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Except the slave rebellions where always a very marginal threat, with only very rare occasions producing something resembling an actual concern.
And most importantly, slaves where not the segment that ruled society, nor where they the segment just beneath that one. Slaves where political and economically none existent (the chattel ones that is)
Chattel slave rebellions is a bad example, as it doesn't even make since to compare the two.
Noble rebellions and gentry machinations is a better example. And historically, the way empires dealt with them was :
1- give in, or butter them up to avoid the unholy hell that would be unleashed if not.
2- gather whatever soldiers are not rebelling or beg a foreign monarch to come save your ass, all the while praying that you still have a kingdom at the end of it.
Now Admittedly, noble and gentry revolts are not the best example, a those did own lands, which distinguishes them from Ymar counterparts in that aspect.
Hmm, Chinese eunuch coupes are a better example I suppose: the buecracy removing the uncoporative monarch.
The household slave revolts of the middle east is a better one. The slave buecrats and soldiers would up and rebel or replace the monarch if they feel he's not giving them thier just due.
Key part in all these, is when the most powerful, wealthy, or influencal segments of your society are pissed and making demands, antagonising them is idiocy.
Chattel slaves where non of the above, so naturally, empires can just squash them every couple of decades.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You've basically conceded the entire Mediterranean to them, so yes. Yes they are.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, they're using slaves so I'm very much not proud.
Hey, @Academia Nut do Free Cities count as Landed Subordinates for [] [Diplo] Alter Subordinate Management (-10 Diplo, -1 Diplo per landed subordinate/turn)?
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I AWAKEN (And have finally caught up with the thread in my skimming 
)
)1/4th actually
Ooh, good point on competing...though i'm still not convinced italics is "leading" as opposed to "threatening to lead/dominate"...which i guess is competing? I had meant to have that as one of my AN questions but forgot
We knew that they didn't as of the last time we had good ties with them...you know, back before we had high level cities either? Pretty sure we only heard the "2 or 3 cities" line back before the trelli war.
You accidentally copied my stuff instead of quoting it and replying here, btw
Thats why we can build aqueducts beyond city level, yes, but thats different than "can baths go above aqueduct level"
On the other hand, if its De Jure, then it can be easier to enforce laws about abuses, if set up right.
Oops, thanks <3
Thanks <3
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They do not.