Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
Susano said:
And we didn't give in to Trader demands. So why should we appease the Patricians now? Nobody is saying the Patricians are the ultimate evil or something (though I would say they are extra dickish, what with needing a suppressing action and being so petty), it's just that they are being dickish right now and hence we should act accordingly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I've already said we shouldn't give in to the demands, merely that we should consider why the factions are asking for something, and not just assume that they are doing it merely to be dicks.

I mean, I'm sure they are doing it partly because they want to screw with us after the reforms, but they have to have a deeper reason than just knowing we'd never do the actions they want. They have reasons for their actions, and I see too much dismissal of those reasons without thinking them through or trying to understand them.
 
ETA50M said:
I don't mind the Freehills failing to conquer the Tin Tribes but I do mind them falling to a new power which won't be as friendly or close to us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree that would be bad, but I think it's quite unlikely. They could well be at risk of losing all their western expansions up to the strait (Possibly even trelli), but the original eastern core is the heart of their kingdom and is quite hard to assault so I expect they'd hold it pretty comfortably.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I agree that would be bad, but I think it's quite unlikely. They could well be at risk of losing all their western expansions up to the strait (Possibly even trelli), but the original eastern core is the heart of their kingdom and is quite hard to assault so I expect they'd hold it pretty comfortably.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm just various because it was a recommend action if not for that I would be all for lending out 2 of our merc companies (third one stays in our new March).
 
VoidZero said:
You are assuming that land under distribute land doesn't require clerks to manage, which is strange; i don't think Patricians have magic wand that do "more productivity" and poof land spills more food. So it is logistical to think that Patricians will get more people to work and manage that land while under the purview of the law. So effectively we are creating more positions that requires read and writing, even if those are not government jobs. Do you really think Patricians will hire clerks that gives lower quality paperwork or results?



This is yet to be proven as we did not do DL even once, nor did we get IC information or narratives support for or against.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We're not adding new land so there's no reason the Patricians would need more clerks than we already have managing it. Moreover, my specific statement was that we would not add more clerks to the central government specifically, which is where the exam system would be most likely to emerge. Consequently, transferring clerk positions from the central government to individual Patricians' staff would be counterproductive.

As to social effects, it has not been proven in-quest that distributing land will increase inequality, but privatization clearly does so IRL. Not to mention the fact that it's a logically predictable outcome - the more forms of power the Patricians have access to, the more chances they have to accrue as much as possible to their own control.
 
Citino said:
...You do realize what an economic shutdown would do to our society right? The guilds explicitly allow our warriors and patricians to do what is needed. Take that away, and, well...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Their threats are completely unreasonable but their demands (IW4) are not.

EDIT: They're still extreme, yes, but not on the level of the Patricians.
 
ETA50M said:
Everyone made comments about her being exceptional and a woman its how she became noticed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nobody did when she was running. There wasn't a single comment on her genders. The only comments came from outside the Ymaryn, like when it came to marriage alliances etc. In fact, those issues highlighted just how different the Ymaryn were to our neighbours regarding those issues. Just read those updates again. No Ymaryn remarked on her being a woman, and it wasn't the reason she was less liked.

That trader was a woman who was a part of the Red Banner and that was only a few hundred years ago, I'm positive we still have some female messengers in our merc companies. I mean I think your projecting values we never really had onto our civ. That women were a part of our Red Banner was because only women were able to ride those horses. Our gender equality was good but it was never at the level your describing it to be.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Conversely, I think your projecting our current situation at the past. The strongest women being warriors alongside the men used to be the norm, female clan heads used to be normal, female clan heads running for kingship wasn't worth a comment. It was always statistically less than men, but not extraordinary. Things simply changed - for the worse. Why should that be so extraordinary?

Citino said:
...You do realize what an economic shutdown would do to our society right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Read my post again - I said their demand, not their threat. Building a level 4 Ironworks is a giant resource sink, of course, but it isn't something that might threaten to tear apart our societies, like 4x DL and establishing the patricians' families in their lands.
 
ETA50M said:
It is a unreadable demand or else it wouldn't be a spite quest and they wouldn't be open to us building them a harbour instead.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Like I said in my edit - it's an extreme demand, but not fundamentally contrary to our ideals, unlike certain other factions I could (and did) name.
 
Wiadi said:
We're not adding new land so there's no reason the Patricians would need more clerks than we already have managing it. Moreover, my specific statement was that we would not add more clerks to the central government specifically, which is where the exam system would be most likely to emerge. Consequently, transferring clerk positions from the central government to individual Patricians' staff would be counterproductive.

As to social effects, it has not been proven in-quest that distributing land will increase inequality, but privatization clearly does so IRL. Not to mention the fact that it's a logically predictable outcome - the more forms of power the Patricians have access to, the more chances they have to accrue as much as possible to their own control.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But our existing land is getting more populated with more demand for more services, which also requires more food and stuff from everywhere else. So as population gets denser, there will be more demand for people providing said services; which are all being taxed and regulated. Therefore, we need more warm bodies doing counting and reading; which also requires more rules to be made and adjusted that leads to the new LAW mega. That means the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the population, which refutes your point. Private services are also managed and taxed mind you. I too can say logically predictable outcome of privatization leads to developments of goods things, your electricity proves this.
 
Susano said:
Nobody did when she was running. There wasn't a single comment on her genders. The only comments came from outside the Ymaryn, like when it came to marriage alliances etc. In fact, those issues highlighted just how different the Ymaryn were to our neighbours regarding those issues. Just read those updates again. No Ymaryn remarked on her being a woman, and it wasn't the reason she was less liked.


Conversely, I think your projecting our current situation at the past. The strongest women being warriors alongside the men used to be the norm, female clan heads used to be normal, female clan heads running for kingship wasn't worth a comment. It was always statistically less than men, but not extraordinary. Things simply changed - for the worse. Why should that be so extraordinary?


Read my post again - I said their demand, not their threat. Building a level 4 Ironworks is a giant resource sink, of course, but it isn't something that might threaten to tear apart our societies, like 4x DL and establishing the patricians' families in their lands.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Academia Nut said:
.Unfortunately, given that she very much had an involvement in setting up the mine, pretty much everyone assumed that she wanted to downplay things for political reasons, which was frustrating given that she was already having problems on the council relating to her relative youth and gender.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Magwyna did get grief over her gender but she was that good that they had to overlook it. Also I can't remember our strongest women being warriors except way back during Sacred Warding when we were fighting the Dead Preists. The women in the Red Banner were primarily messengers although I'm sure some of them also fought and some probably still do to this day. We dissolved the clans (the easiest way for a woman to gain power) but we should still have female guildmasters but mostly the Guilds that are considered woman's work like weaving. However I do agree that we have become worse on gender equality.
 
Last edited:
George said:
We don't have the luxury of deciding our actions based on proof. Reasonable arguments about their effects are the most we can consistently rely on. Insisting on more than that would trap us in indecision or have us walk into every trap.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Sure, but people still complains about bad consequences of their own making. :V
 
ETA50M said:
Saffron Isles taking over the straits would be horrible for the region not good. If the Freehills were going to be fine than I wouldn't care but if AN is recommending we stay on Offensive policy to help them out? Sounds like they will be near death if they get hit on two to three fronts. Right now we have a friendly civ that we have strong trade and diplomatic ties to about to pounced on all sides.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I wouldn't mind Treilli exchanging hands, because city tend to be damaged and population suppressed at this age. :V Freehill being beaten back to their original size is very good for us, that means whoever doing the damage are also damage; while we are doing internal stuff.
 
VoidZero said:
But our existing land is getting more populated with more demand for more services, which also requires more food and stuff from everywhere else. So as population gets denser, there will be more demand for people providing said services; which are all being taxed and regulated. Therefore, we need more warm bodies doing counting and reading; which also requires more rules to be made and adjusted that leads to the new LAW mega. That means the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the population, which refutes your point. Private services are also managed and taxed mind you. I too can say logically predictable outcome of privatization leads to developments of goods things, your electricity proves this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay, but literally none of the things you listed (increasing population, taxation and regulation, law megaproject) are contingent upon or increased by Distribute Land.

Explain to me why electricity would be impossible without privatization?
 
Wiadi said:
Okay, but literally none of the things you listed (increasing population, taxation and regulation, law megaproject) are contingent upon or increased by Distribute Land.

Explain to me why electricity would be impossible without privatization?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think he's referring to industrial moguls, such as Edison, which is honestly just a bullshit comparison. Especially when you consider our empire's existing engineering capabilities and potential for advancement.
 
Titus Stargazer said:
I think he's referring to industrial moguls, such as Edison, which is honestly just a bullshit comparison. Especially when you consider our empire's existing engineering capabilities and potential for advancement.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Choosing to extend the benefit of the doubt, given the obvious problems you cited with that line of argument.
 
Wiadi said:
Like I said in my edit - it's an extreme demand, but not fundamentally contrary to our ideals, unlike certain other factions I could (and did) name.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Eh technically we don't have the health infrastructure set up yet to build the Ironworks and it will add even more tech costs to our actions when we have not increased our tech refund to deal with IW3.
VoidZero said:
I wouldn't mind Treilli exchanging hands, because city tend to be damaged and population suppressed at this age. :V Freehill being beaten back to their original size is very good for us, that means whoever doing the damage are also damage; while we are doing internal stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I do mind having to establish diplomatic relations to a power that might be hostile to us and ruin us with piracy or attempt to sack our colonies. I'm not saying help them conquer the Tin Tribes but at least make sure they hold onto the straits for us.
 
Wiadi said:
Okay, but literally none of the things you listed (increasing population, taxation and regulation, law megaproject) are contingent upon or increased by Distribute Land.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

VoidZero said:
You are assuming that land under distribute land doesn't require clerks to manage, which is strange; i don't think Patricians have magic wand that do "more productivity" and poof land spills more food. So it is logistical to think that Patricians will get more people to work and manage that land while under the purview of the law. So effectively we are creating more positions that requires read and writing, even if those are not government jobs. Do you really think Patricians will hire clerks that gives lower quality paperwork or results?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
VoidZero said:
But our existing land is getting more populated with more demand for more services, which also requires more food and stuff from everywhere else. So as population gets denser, there will be more demand for people providing said services; which are all being taxed and regulated. Therefore, we need more warm bodies doing counting and reading; which also requires more rules to be made and adjusted that leads to the new LAW mega. That means the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the population, which refutes your point. Private services are also managed and taxed mind you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

How is your reading and memory roll on average? I clearly said private services increase need of government clerk because of taxation and regulations. If DL land is not part of the government, then they are private; which generates needs of having private clerks and this leads to demand of government accounting and tax services.

Explain to me why electricity would be impossible without privatization?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because steam engines are developed due to demand of bulk movement, which was the result of industrial and population demand. These are business activities that was not planned or driven by the government, apart from tax and red tape once it took off. :V
 
VoidZero said:
How is your reading and memory roll on average? I clearly said private services increase need of government clerk because of taxation and regulations. If DL land is not part of the government, then they are private; which generates needs of having private clerks and this leads to demand of government accounting and tax services.



Because steam engines are developed due to demand of bulk movement, which was the result of industrial and population demand. These are business activities that was not planned or driven by the government, apart from tax and red tape once it took off. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They weren't planned by the government in OUR universe, but I see no reason why a more evolved version of the Ymaryn government and guilds should be wholly unable to create a working electrical grid. I mean, just look at the fucking iron works, and the sanitation systems. We can totally do it without corpies gettin' up in our shit.
 
ETA50M said:
Eh technically we don't have the health infrastructure set up yet to build the Ironworks and it will add even more tech costs to our actions when we have not increased our tech refund to deal with IW3.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And...? It's inconvenient, but that's not the same as the level of damage Distribute Land would do to our attempts at mitigating private accumulation of power. I'm only trying to claim a difference of degree.

VoidZero said:
How is your reading and memory roll on average? I clearly said private services increase need of government clerk because of taxation and regulations. If DL land is not part of the government, then they are private; which generates needs of having private clerks and this leads to demand of government accounting and tax services.



Because steam engines are developed due to demand of bulk movement, which was the result of industrial and population demand. These are business activities that was not planned or driven by the government, apart from tax and red tape once it took off. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay, but the land we distribute isn't appearing out of the aether - it already needs to be regulated and taxed in its current government-owned state. And private clerks do nothing to encourage development of government bureaucratic structures.

Considering that we control the Ymaryn government, we can make it plan and drive innovation - as indeed we historically have. Private land ownership would at best accelerate the process, and frankly, I'll accept a slower rate of technological progress if it means limiting societal inequalities.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top