And are also far smaller in population and militarism than the Xoh, being a single non True City Sate who was more interested in merchentalism.

They are not even close in war power to the Xoh in either of those two examples and whilst the Red Banner may be disadvantaged more than in previous assignments their opponents are not on the same level of said opponents.

Have we not already established that their military strategy is to use their immense wealth to hire multiple mercenary armies from their neighbors? We don't even know how many. We have one, they could have three, or six, or ten, if they pull out all the stops due to a crisis such as, maybe, someone threatening access to a vital strategic resource?

We're not looking at fighting just the Trelli natives here.
 
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[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)

Tactical voting time.
May I suggest adding approval voting for the east? Unless you dislike it.

I mean, I'm not currently voting for north, because I think it would be a disaster, so if you don't want to reciprocate, I understand.
 
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Crap wood for planking and keel, it's not even straight...

The pines we will get Syberian Pine
I too can post pictures of tall straight trees and say it means something.

That Lebanese cedar looks pretty straight to me. Tall too.

The Lebanese cedar was considered sacred for shipbuilding for thousands of years by the Egyptians and Phoenecians. Lebanese cedar tends to grow straight to heights upwards of 35 meters, is heavily resistant to swelling and decay and is easy to work.

Do a little bit of research before you say something at least.

Cedars of God - Wikipedia
www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bible/lebanese-cedar—the-prized-tree-of-ancient-woodworking/
The use of lebanese cedar for ship construction

I also think you guys are overestimating how far north this northern trade post might be. I mean, if we as a civ sit on the 36th parallel and get some sleet and cold winter rains in our northern provinces along with high altitude snow, then it doesn't take much farther north to get a cold winter and pine trees.
 
Nomadic tribes are terrifying and I am not sure how the everloving fuck did we survive bordering them so long.

They are still chariot-nomads rather than the much nastier horse-riding nomads.

Once the steppes gain good horse-riding and iron they switch off of Easy Mode.

Yes, you have been dealing with Easy Mode Nomads thus far.

How has the switch back to normal weather affected the provinces bordering the steppes? Is it getting too dry again or can they maintain the forests they planted?

How do the steppes look? Is there enough food for the nomads or is the grass turning brown again?

Steppes are still quite green at this point.

Btw what does the Do Nothing Here action result in? A simple lack of expenditure?

Yeah, nothing will happen if you choose that, saving on resources.

Does culture shift occurs to Tradepost like March and Colony?

The reason i ask is that trade post gives impression that population growth from immigrants would be less as the focus is on trade, which leans toward people with some math and read & write.

I know that supporting muscles are still needes for feeding the merchants and moving the goods, but rate of shift might be lower?

The trade post is significantly more mercantile and the population considerably less settled. Its average age is far narrower than most, with fewer children and seniors and more young adults from elsewhere, but there are permanent settled groups who maintain farms outside the post.
 
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Exp] Do nothing here
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)

Approval voting ho!
Also, with the info on Golden Age things, I do not really want it all that much because I want Baby Boom to last as long as possible.

And are also far smaller in population and militarism than the Xoh, being a single non True City Sate who was more interested in merchentalism.

They are not even close in war power to the Xoh in either of those two examples and whilst the Red Banner may be disadvantaged more than in previous assignments their opponents are not on the same level of said opponents.

They have all the dudes they can pay...or promise our loot, which we have a lot of, what with Iron they will see on like everyone.
Seriously, "You get a share of Starmetal weapons" with a halfway-decent diplo roll will probably get Trelli a fuckton of dudes to throw at us without expending much of thier own people.
 
To those who are voting for the western trading post, what will change your mind?

Convincing argumentation that the Trelli lose their minds and abandon every other consideration they have to get into a grueling slugging match with us despite the fact we'd still be supplying them with the product.

Some convincing reason why the constant refrain of the idea we can just ignore them could have some backing (This in particular is exasperating to me because they assume hyper aggression as the default mindstate of the Trelli in addition to incredible military power and then assume they won't be raiding Greenshore, Western wall, hatvalley, and our oceanic shipping at incredible intensity's which we would then have to respond to anyway, merely from a worse position.). If the anti TP argumentation is correct on one plank it completely undermines the other plank of the argument which i've not seen addressed by any of them.
 
@Academia Nut, what type of ships are trelli using?
Galleys, dhows or something else.
More importantly, did they develop naval ramming?

Are they a true city as we know, or do they follow different mechanics?


And lastly are they ahistoric Venice, Genoa or Carthage?
 
Yeah, approval voting time.

[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Exp] Do nothing here
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
what type of ships are trelli using?
Galleys, dhows or something else.
More importantly, did they develop naval ramming?

Are they a true city as we know, or do they follow different mechanics?


And lastly are they ahistoric Venice, Genoa or Carthage?

They're using fast galleys as interceptors, so they haven't really worked on ramming as an actual tactic, but if you're smaller enough they have no compunctions about running you over.

They have developed to a True City now.

And 'Yes' to your last question.
 
We should just wait. A trading post to boost salt income is too good to pass up, but not in a position likely to start a swift and massive retaliation to protect vital strategic assets, nor in a location that would tie up the Red Banner full time and maybe freeze to death anyway. In the east.
So make a new Mercenary company. Poof, solution. We have e martial and we need to do it anyway to integrate the tribes. So what's the problem?
 
Have we not already established that their military strategy is to use their immense wealth to hire multiple mercenary armies from their neighbors? We don't even know how many. We have one, they could have three, or six, or ten, if they pull out all the stops due to a crisis such as, maybe, someone threatening access to a vital strategic resource ?

We're not looking at fighting just the Trelli natives here.
  • What is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy.
  • It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.
Art of War concurs with you, we don't know our enemy, and with that we can't attack the enemy strategy eficiently.
 
May I suggest adding approval voting for the east?
Hmm. I'm not terribly fond of the practice, but this is as appropriate a time as any.

[x] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[x] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[x] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company

[x] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)

[x] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
They are still chariot-nomads rather than the much nastier horse-riding nomads.

Once the steppes gain good horse-riding and iron they switch off of Easy Mode.

Yes, you have been dealing with Easy Mode Nomads thus far.

I know it. And fully expect to lose a chunk of Western Wall the first Martial Hero Khan with cavalry.
A lot of people in the thread seriously think we can colonize the steppes. >_<

Which kinda means we'd better make a new Merc company and/or Support at least one of our subbordinates to the north as soon as possible. Huh.
 
The trade post is significantly more mercantile and the population considerably less settled. Its average age is far narrower than most, with fewer children and seniors and more young adults from elsewhere, but there are permanent settled groups who maintain farms outside the post.
So there's a lot of interchange between the core provinces and the trade post? Good.
 
Time to ask pointed questions, folks!

@Academia Nut

So, what did our advisors mean by "hard but probably can do it" if we are at war with Trelli?

What is the biggest issue here? Is it the logistics and the fact that we can't project as much force? What about recruiting from the local population? Are the tin tribes likely to support us?

If the NTP is found, our risk comes from starvation right. Does support subordinate help with that?
 
No, it is leaving us breathing room to turn on Defensive Polict/Support Subordinate before they come.
Like, the very next turn we can just send Support Subordinate to some of the northern provinces...or Lowlands if we are concerned about war flaring up yet again there. If we start any new trade post, we cannot really do that - even Far North one requires support to not die due to colder climate. Though it, at least, is not visibly endangered by pissed off rival powers with a big pool of violent people to throw at it.
But, like, point is, overextending is going to hurt everything else we do because, well, there is only so much actions to go around.
Assuming a) we get warning in time to do it and b) that whatever possible war we get in with the Trell is i) consuming most of our actions (dependent on other actions also consuming urgent actions) and ii) hasn't ended, getting involved in a war definitely would preclude preparatory actions for an imminent nomad invasion.

The Northern Trade Post only requires support to not die for ~3 turns, acc. to AN. I assume it would spend this time on Study + Farm actions and building up ties?

R.E. the Trell: Again, they are *not* natives. They're neighbors. So the NA at least aren't a good example(, especially if we're looking at blockades rather than the literal raids that being natives would allow for. I also don't know of any colonies they killed, but I guess that's because they didn't survive long enough for their name to matter. Poor homesteaders).

Rome + Persia are better, and I know nothing about Rome kicking out greek colonies. Didn't greek colonies come before Rome became a big thing? All I really know about historical greeks is like 1) war with Persia, 2) Homer, 3) the Aeneid was written because Ovid wanted Rome to seem cooler, 4) arches columns, romans were the arches but hung flat roofs because they thought dome roofs were uncivilized 5) naked oil fights.

E: R.e. Losing the Western Wall. Yeah. We really need to found a March to the West of ST.

Also, only twice more our current height in northern extension and we'll have consumed a fair amount of the steppes, reducing the ability for horse-riding nomads to end us. Not that this would be worthwhile, as the rivers all follow where the ST already are. So we'd do like... a funnel. So ugly.
 
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So, what did our advisors mean by "hard but probably can do it" if we are at war with Trelli?

What is the biggest issue here? Is it the logistics and the fact that we can't project as much force? What about recruiting from the local population? Are the tin tribes likely to support us?

If the NTP is found, our risk comes from starvation right. Does support subordinate help with that?

The Red Banner are probably hard enough to take them, but the Trelli are much closer and it would be difficult to support a post that far out. If you got blockaded things could get very dicey, especially if the Trelli brought in extra tribes for support.

For the NTP the problem is both climate and being so far away that if anything goes wrong it will be quite some time before help can arrive.
 
The Red Banner are probably hard enough to take them, but the Trelli are much closer and it would be difficult to support a post that far out. If you got blockaded things could get very dicey, especially if the Trelli brought in extra tribes for support.

So our biggest problem is that we would besieged constantly and not being able to go out and farm.
 
[x] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[x] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West

[x] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)

Approval voting! Also, I lost track of the arguments and projected econ and expected actions next turn regarding the internal vote, can some one give me a summary of the arguments behind whatever the winning couple votes are?
 
The Red Banner are probably hard enough to take them, but the Trelli are much closer and it would be difficult to support a post that far out. If you got blockaded things could get very dicey, especially if the Trelli brought in extra tribes for support.

For the NTP the problem is both climate and being so far away that if anything goes wrong it will be quite some time before help can arrive.

@Academia Nut
The NTP is 6 months to a year by boat, right?

Also, how do the Ymaryn measure age?
 
Convincing argumentation that the Trelli lose their minds and abandon every other consideration they have to get into a grueling slugging match with us despite the fact we'd still be supplying them with the product.
I don't expect a slugging match, I expect a blitz.

Hiring lots of mercs for one turn to utterly smash a threat is a very feasible strategy, and threatening their tin would give them ample cause to press their own exterminatus button.
Some convincing reason why the constant refrain of the idea we can just ignore them could have some backing
Because our saltern wealth is independent of them, so we don't really need to go near them, and we can deal with basic raiding by simply being strong enough that we're not worth the cost?
(This in particular is exasperating to me because they assume hyper aggression as the default mindstate of the Trelli in addition to incredible military power and then assume they won't be raiding Greenshore, Western wall, hatvalley, and our oceanic shipping at incredible intensity's which we would then have to respond to anyway, merely from a worse position.).
If we do nothing special, then I expect a basic level of raiding, which we can deter by making it too expensive. But if we go out of our way to make a threat that, as @veekie himself says, could put them out of the war - well, then, they will probably give us special treatment.
If the anti TP argumentation is correct on one plank it completely undermines the other plank of the argument which i've not seen addressed by any of them.
I think it's clear that the Trelli are thinking short term. They have a new shiny and they love it. If it doesn't work very well on us, they'll pout, but probably go raid more profitable people. If, on the other hand, we try to break their shiny, they'll likely throw a tantrum.
 
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