Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Uh.
When they've explicitly got the faster ships, betting on being able to control which engagements happen isn't a good idea.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
And play with risk of internal fractures, ST is passive now, but their infrastructure is shaping up.
I recall more instances of nations fell by dissident and rebel more than pirates.
The Northern Trading Post is going to be painful. It will require support subordinate actions over the coming turns, and likely a dedicated mercenary company.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Does anyone else think that if we start seeing Trelli pirates raiding our traders, we should completely boycott their city and go trade with our neighbors?
We'd take a hit, but a very survivable one. I don't really want anything to do with jerks of that caliber. Perhaps we can form a great eastern alliance against them!
We'd take a hit, but a very survivable one. I don't really want anything to do with jerks of that caliber. Perhaps we can form a great eastern alliance against them!
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Not all pine.
The King's Broad Arrow and Eastern White Pine | NELMA
Hell, cedarwood is a pinewood and was used in shipbuilding for centuries and is sacred for it.
It was also used in longships for hundreds of years.
Viking Ship Construction
Article: Planks for Viking ships appear to have been made from two main types of trees; oak and pine. There is, amongst marine archaeologists, a tentative division of Viking shipbuilding areas into "pine areas" (probably Northern Norway and Sweden) and "oak areas" (Southern Norway, Southern Sweden and Denmark).
Heck, a quick google search gave me a dozen methods for building boats with pinewood.
As for weather resistance, that is what pitch and resin is for.
Don't make blanket statements that don't always apply or aren't universally true.
unless they are going to break off in the next two turns, integrating them is a non-factor. Completing the palace will tremendously reduce the likelihood of our northern provinces from breaking away.
The bolded is the key part of the argument.
Look at the trade goods list. We can assume we know what they are Dominant in otherwise they can't be dominant in a trade good nobody knows about:
Dominant
-Slaves
Leading/Significant
-Bronze
-Tin
-Wine
So they formed 1 Company, leaving themselves at Martial 3, and sent it to the Saffron Isles for Wealth.
They used this Wealth to hire local tribes to be mercenaries for them like Heaven's Hawks. So far so good?
At present they can only afford 2 Companies on pirate duty and one must be out on hire to pay for this.
Their objectives are then(assuming they have Center of Trade) to take control of the Tin trade, and become Triple Dominant, allowing them to field THREE active Companies at all times, and double that for short periods if half their companies are out earning money.
That's where the West Trelli trade post comes in.
-If we take it and fortify it, then they can kiss their expansion goodbye. With two Bronze equipped Companies, they can probably harass us for a while, but with the Red Banner in garrison and the Trade Post's own built in force, we have the advantage in that fight. They can't win it quickly, and losing the Ymaryn trade goods will cost them enormously when they do so.
-If they take it and fortify it, we can forget about contesting their region, since with three Dominances they'd have a force we can't beat without straining our own economy.
We know a few things:
-They don't have alchemy. The Ymaryn alchemical dyes are something new and strange.
-They probably don't have rams. Their ships are built wrong to support rams, since their fast ships are built for archery harassment and parallel boarding actions. Longships could support rams however.
-They probably have a bit more experience in boarding battles, but our warriors can handle defensive boardings better than they do with our bows.
We actually do have the means to deliver them. Not a lot they can do about coasthugging longships really. The problem is mostly that we can't use that method until they take a swing at us first, and that this method would be better the earlier they try to take a swing at us.
Need the mills first. Won't discover wood pulp's qualities until we have the means to crush it to paste
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Except when it's appropriate to do so?
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Their are dangers for having max any stat, however their are also boons. (except maybe hierarchy)
Look at the threadmarks of road to war and War was declared? to see the general what things are like when were over mil cap, as long as we don't stay above it for long we shouldn't have a problem over it.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Actually, I suspect that they have a more powerful evolution of CoT. They probably get wealth by trading with dominants as well as dominating by themselves. Maybe even lesser benefits for Leading.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Says the strawman.
Seriously. I read the damn update and it looks to me that our prosperity and "the goodness in everything" right now is making the corruption hard to see. This is exactly what festivals do and exactly what I was arguing.
The festival we just did? Good. It synergized well with admitting our mistakes and the end of the environmental difficulties. Another festival just after the first? Not only is that a little excessive for a 'work hard' society, but it just makes people happy but doesn't really accomplish anything.
Edit: oops lost a chunk.
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- Location
- Panama City
Ok, I see that, thanks. Still think it's nuts to do the integration right now since A) even being briefly over max until we bleed it off somewhere is pretty risky(since I also recall AN saying martial gets increasingly dangerous the higher over cap we go, and the integration will push us pretty far over), and B) there's simply not pressing reason at the moment, narratively OR statwise. The last WOG we had was that the North is actually pretty happy with us, so they're not breaking away in the next couple turns it'll take to build the palace, which should push our admin up enough to prevent a breakaway.
- Location
- his hidden lair
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
Because the Trelli need that tin in order to field enough mercs to contest us. The Red Banner is the finest fighting force in the known world that we're aware of, and with the somewhat defensible terrain, we can leverage that.
Yes, it's letting the Trelli pit their navy against us, but it prevents them from expanding further. The response to growing belligerence is to cut it off at the knee, not to try and bide our time. Because I can guarantee the thread this, the Trelli will do nearly as much military buildup as us.
Going to the North because of better ship components is a gamble that won't have dividends for quite a while. Better to cut Trelli ambitions at the knee, contest and slow their build up while we settle the Northern TP and do a massive boat building expansion roughly simultaneously. The sooner this fight happens on our terms, the better.
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
Because the Trelli need that tin in order to field enough mercs to contest us. The Red Banner is the finest fighting force in the known world that we're aware of, and with the somewhat defensible terrain, we can leverage that.
Yes, it's letting the Trelli pit their navy against us, but it prevents them from expanding further. The response to growing belligerence is to cut it off at the knee, not to try and bide our time. Because I can guarantee the thread this, the Trelli will do nearly as much military buildup as us.
Going to the North because of better ship components is a gamble that won't have dividends for quite a while. Better to cut Trelli ambitions at the knee, contest and slow their build up while we settle the Northern TP and do a massive boat building expansion roughly simultaneously. The sooner this fight happens on our terms, the better.
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Ironically, this encourages defensive wars...
- Location
- Panama City
...Look, the issue is our trade normalizing is drowning out the wealth malus we're getting from taxes. Festivals has ZERO to do with that.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Fuck ponderosas. Shit gives me allergies. Makes spring in Colorado absolutely miserable.Well, yeah, if you make a boat out of Ponderosa pine you deserve what you get
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@Academia Nut, given that putting a trade post up north is considered dangerous, what actions can we take to mitigate the danger?
Remember, Defender here. It'd simply change trade from Single ships to Trade Convoys(i.e. 4 merchant ships with two shiploads of warrior escorts). They can pick the overall terms of battle, but as with land caravans, the solution is to just travel in large groups.
At least longships can be lashed together fairly safely.
Update does say that we can afford to take that trade hit now, but I kind of want to see what they'd do if they can't buy Tin with slaves anymore.
That'd change their market strategy to buy up Saffron to buy Tin.
Certainly pitch and resins do the job, but noting that the pines we're talking about aren't cedars(which we already have). We're looking at the northern softwood conifers, and while they are awesome for a lot of things...getting better boats in the next 2 generations isn't it.
It's the longshot investment, which is kind of the wrong thing to do if you want to contest Trelli pirates for the sea, and also must send a lot of support to keep it afloat.
Take the risky trade post site that we have partial solutions for, which gives us a counter to regional piracy, and becomes selfsufficient defensively in 2-3 turns once they put up walls and towers...or take the dangerous trade post site which splits us between dealing with piracy, dealing with taxes AND keeping a trade post alive in unfamiliar environments?
- Location
- Illinois
Also, minor note on our vassals.
They are fortifying now that they have a moment of peace. Hopefully our victories will have bought them enough time to build up their defenses enough to discourage further attacks.
Finite Magician
Working within limits
- Location
- World's End
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
Because even if we plop down a trade post next to the Trelli, what is to stop their pirates raiding us? Our focus is not on naval dominance. It has rarely even been about sailing on rough waters. The Trelli has those advantages over us. I say we search for materials to make bigger and better boats, commit to building some infrastructure to supporting the logistics of protracted naval battles (Grand Docks) as well as study the Trelli more for ideas on what to build so as to even the terms between us. This is step one.
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
I wanted to send trade missions to our neighbors, then I remembered their treachery. Our clerks and the Stallions have not betrayed us, thus I favor them. Once our admin infrastructure and internal logistics are rock-solid, we can efficiently do everything else.
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
Before, our main concern was Econ. Now, it is Econ Expansion. Since I'm pushing for integrating Stallion ASAP (pushes this option above Festivals) and do not want to further use up Econ Expansion (nulls rest of choices), this is my vote.
P.S.
My current priority: Integrate Stallions (while they are happy) IMMEDIATELY after Palace benefits kick in.
Secondary goal (something I hope happens soon): Census/Iron Law as appropriate.
Tertiary goal (as of now just shiny): Grand Docks or Dam. Will decide as situation grows clearer.
Because even if we plop down a trade post next to the Trelli, what is to stop their pirates raiding us? Our focus is not on naval dominance. It has rarely even been about sailing on rough waters. The Trelli has those advantages over us. I say we search for materials to make bigger and better boats, commit to building some infrastructure to supporting the logistics of protracted naval battles (Grand Docks) as well as study the Trelli more for ideas on what to build so as to even the terms between us. This is step one.
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
I wanted to send trade missions to our neighbors, then I remembered their treachery. Our clerks and the Stallions have not betrayed us, thus I favor them. Once our admin infrastructure and internal logistics are rock-solid, we can efficiently do everything else.
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
Before, our main concern was Econ. Now, it is Econ Expansion. Since I'm pushing for integrating Stallion ASAP (pushes this option above Festivals) and do not want to further use up Econ Expansion (nulls rest of choices), this is my vote.
P.S.
My current priority: Integrate Stallions (while they are happy) IMMEDIATELY after Palace benefits kick in.
Secondary goal (something I hope happens soon): Census/Iron Law as appropriate.
Tertiary goal (as of now just shiny): Grand Docks or Dam. Will decide as situation grows clearer.
NewAgeOfPower
Engineering Pornagrapher Extraordinaire
- Location
- An Certain Hive of Scum & Villainy, known as NYC
Highly walled vassals have been shown to have dangerous ideas regarding independence and obeying central rule...