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Paths of Civilization

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Umi-san said:
Only if the male kings are gay.
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The fuck? Most of our kings are straight dude, I know gays are magic and shit but not all gods are gay, in fact since a majority of people are straight and almost every king has been straight he's more likely to be straight
Candesce said:
If Mathylmyn is the voted pick, we probably get to vote on the form displayed
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You don't know that, we have found our civ running away from us more than once before
 
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Dieb said:
There's no indication we'll have a casus belli in order to attack them militarily. In fact, in story we probably do not know they do child sacrifice. Even if we did, we'd have to attack the Thunder Horse to get to them, which, again, no casus belli.

If you want to punish them though, you could always take lots of Art Patronage actions. They have a dominant position in Fine Pottery and have Centre of Trade, if we can up our position from "Minor" there we'll cause stability drops and make them mad enough they might try to attack us. Admittedly stability drops are very cheap for them to cure with those self-same child sacrifices, but it's the only thing we can really do to hurt them right now. Probably not worth it in my opinion, but its something to keep in mind for the future.
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We'd have to do enough to take them down from dominant to cause them more than "grumbles", and with their current situation i doubt they'd attack us for anything other than taking them down from dominant at some point after they've solidified their position like AN has said they're going for, when they're not needing to fight the HK for the TH
Academia Nut said:
Only losing dominant, although there will be grumbles for other downward trends.
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McLuvin said:
The fuck? Most of our kings are straight dude, I know gays are magic and shit but not all gods are gay, in fact since a majority of people are straight and almost every king has been straight he's more likely to be straight
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So the straight male king is going to bang the male god or advisor, rather than the god's female consort form?

Obviously not. Pay attention.

"Positive discrimination is still discrimination" is rather untrue, imo. But that's a topic I'm not willing to delve into further.

Also, pretty much every god is flexible.
 
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Umi-san said:
So the straight male king is going to bang the male god or advisor, rather than the god's female consort form?

Obviously not. Pay attention.
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What? Wait! Wait!

Mathylmyn's Supposed to be an advisor in his male forms, his female form is the consort.

I'm just saying that the male forms are more likely to solidify out of the three versions, that would make him an advisor type god, not a lover of the king.
 
Honestly, the thread's proven so hostile and dismissive of Mathulmyn I'm almost positive it's going to run away from us and cause problems because no one is actually going to do anything about it.

'If we enshrine him as God of Kings in an advisory position, he'll metamorphose into a King of Gods!- fuck the fact he's getting prayed to already'

'He'll become a symbol of masculine domination because there's no way the 3 interpretations of him can coexist! What do you mean Crow is an over millennia old three-faced god and three-faced gods' have grounding in several diverse cultures?! Nevermind the fact enshrining all 3 facets would be a coup for gender-equality because it legitimizes the idea men need women to temper themselves.'

'We don't want to empower the king by recognizing the populist god anyways, let's just not try and control/dictate his worship because that'll keep it from going out of control! What do you mean we need a strong king position to counteract the despised oligarchs and the ever-present threat of hereditary nobility?'

'Clearly Mathulmyn is an aristocratic construct made to oppress the poor Ymaryn, nevermind the fact he's the most popularly prayed to god in our civ! Nevermind the fact Crow is explicitly too esoteric and removed from the mundanities of reality to be casually worshipped!'

Pretty much every time we've demonized and refused to recognize the validity of something in it's context- I'm looking at the ST here, it's nearly blown up in our faces. All I've been told is that Mathulmyn is a problem, but seen absolutely nothing to address that besides 'it'll fade in time'.

I'm not even arguing for the sake of the vote anymore, I'm legitimately curious how people actually plan on addressing this if Mathulmyn triggers them that much.
 
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Karugus said:
Honestly, the thread's proven so hostile and dismissive of Mathulmyn I'm almost positive it's going to run away from us and cause problems because no one is actually going to do anything about it.

'If we enshrine him as God of Kings in an advisory position, he'll metamorphose into a King of Gods!- fuck the fact he's getting prayed to already'

'He'll become a symbol of masculine domination because there's no way the 3 interpretations of him can coexist! What do you mean Crow is an over millennia old three-faced god and three-faced gods' have grounding in several diverse cultures?!'

'We don't want to empower the king by recognizing the populist god anyways, let's just not try and control/dictate his worship because that'll keep it from going out of control! What do you mean we need a strong king position to counteract the despised oligarchs and the ever-present threat of hereditary nobility?'

'Clearly Mathulmyn is an aristocratic construct made to oppress the poor Ymaryn, nevermind the fact he's the most popularly prayed to god in our civ! Nevermind the fact Crow is explicitly too esoteric and removed from the mundanities of reality to be casually worshipped!'

Pretty much every time we've demonized and refused to recognize the validity of something in it's context- I'm looking at the ST here, it's nearly blown up in our faces. All I've been told is that Mathulmyn is a problem, but seen absolutely nothing to address that besides 'it'll fade in time'.

I'm not even arguing for the sake of the vote anymore, I'm legitimately curious how people actually plan on addressing this if Mathulmyn triggers them that much.
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Personally, I'd push for enshrining Mathulmyn in Valleyhome once we get the Temple finished. Hopefully we'll get a vote for that.
 
McLuvin said:
You don't know that, we have found our civ running away from us more than once before
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Actually...
Academia Nut said:
Take a wild guess what the next phase of the arguments about the temple will be :p

Thus far, outside of Crow who is different in that he has multiple aspects rather than depictions, the depictions have been very local and thus conflicting ideas haven't particularly come up yet.
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So after this vote, we get to decide how they appear.

I imagine this will be the same with Crow. We get to decide if he looks like a man, crow, or abstraction.
Karugus said:
'Clearly Mathulmyn is an aristocratic construct made to oppress the poor Ymaryn, nevermind the fact he's the most popularly prayed to god in our civ! Nevermind the fact Crow is explicitly too esoteric and removed from the mundanities of reality to be casually worshipped!'
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Okay I recognize the other strawmans but this one is new.

Also I am voting for Crow as he is our Main Deity and should get First Temple. People have brought up that Library being placed in his temple would also open up the path to having it be a place of learning and education, further helped by the fact that the Sacred Forest Holy Site is already a place of education.
 
Tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Jun 1, 2017 at 4:37 PM, finished with 45066 posts and 107 votes.
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McLuvin said:
What? Wait! Wait!

Mathylmyn's Supposed to be an advisor in his male forms, his female form is the consort.

I'm just saying that the male forms are more likely to solidify out of the three versions, that would make him an advisor type god, not a lover of the king.
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Academia Nut said:
Mathulmyn was thus variously conceived of as a king passing on experience, a wizened advisor giving good counsel, or a consort who could rein in the impulses of the king.
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The consort form is basically still an advisor form, though acting in a restraining form rather than a wisdom providing one.

If we don't go to war and do wise administrative tactics while being otherwise boring, the wise old king form will solidify.
If we do go to war for expansionary purposes and do wise administrative tactics, possibly while engaging in trade, the advisor/vizier form will solidify.
If we go to war in a non-expansionary way and do trade based stuff, or back out from a war and seek a better path, the consort form will solidify.

These are based from tropes developed in other cultures, though... Which might mean they're still applicable if religion can leak from, say, the TH.

Glassware said:
Personally, I'd push for enshrining Mathulmyn in Valleyhome once we get the Temple finished. Hopefully we'll get a vote for that.
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I'm just going to again restate that I'd rather enshrine our Harvest goddess in our most fertile land instead.

Rainbow Trail is where Kings are buried. Settles us on the old king form, though...
 
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Karugus said:
'He'll become a symbol of masculine domination because there's no way the 3 interpretations of him can coexist! What do you mean Crow is an over millennia old three-faced god and three-faced gods' have grounding in several diverse cultures?!'
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To be fair the older a god is the more unusual they are.

Younger gods seem to be simplified by the people in comparison to the older gods, there's no other officially tripartite major spirit like Crow and only the older gods like Gwy and Goya are hermaphroditic.

It's unlikely that he will gain the same treatment as the elder gods, as there seems to be a major divide between the older gods and new, the older gods being more 'different' and sometimes even outright alien and unknowable against the more clearly defined newer gods
 
McLuvin said:
Some people are already praying to him as king of the gods, it's not that hard a leap
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Except by getting all the shamans to agree that he's the God of Kings, writing it down explicitly stating as such, and proceeding to teach all the pilgrims that come to said temple that he's the God of Kings not the King of Gods- will do far more to actually prevent that transformation than screaming about the risks and flailing impotently will.

  1. Fact: All those King of Godders will now have less people telling them they're wrong and explaining why
  2. Fact: Strictly oral traditions mutate much more than written traditions
  3. Fact: As time goes on the shamans, our clergy, are going to be more entrenched in their differing opinions and less likely to present a unified theological doctrine on him
  4. Fact: There are now massive amounts of Ymaryn praying to a god with no clearly defined nature and we've already seen arguments boil over from stupider shit than religion

Glassware said:
Personally, I'd push for enshrining Mathulmyn in Valleyhome once we get the Temple finished. Hopefully we'll get a vote for that.
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That? That I can approve of, and if the thread actually discussed that and was willing to go through with it- I'd be much less irritated than I am right now.
 
Umi-san said:
The consort form is basically still an advisor form, though acting in a restraining form rather than a wisdom providing one.

If we don't go to war and do wise administrative tactics while being otherwise boring, the wise old king form will solidify.
If we do go to war for expansionary purposes and do wise administrative tactics, possibly while engaging in trade, the advisor/vizier form will solidify.
If we go to war in a non-expansionary way and do trade based stuff, or back out from a war and seek a better path, the consort form will solidify.

These are based from tropes developed in other cultures, though... Which might mean they're still applicable if religion can leak from, say, the TH.


I'm just going to again restate that I'd rather enshrine our Harvest goddess in our most fertile land instead.

Rainbow Trail is where Kings are buried. Settles us on the old king form, though...
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So considering our plans at the moment the Wise Old King is the most likely to solidify?

Meh, not bad
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1767 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 44165-44996]
##### NetTally 1.9.4
Task: Temple
[43][Temple] Crow
[42][Temple] Fythhagyna
[12][Temple] Mathulmyn
[7][Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[1][Temple] Crow and Mathulmyn
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Crow
[79][Crow] Alien but knowable
[15][Crow] Benevolent
[3][Crow] Prankster
[3][Crow] Alien and unknowable
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Boats
[81][Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[12][Boats] Size
[3][Boats] Speed
[1][Boats] Portability
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Drought
[77][Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[13][Drought] Found March in the North-East
[3][Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)
[2][Drought] Ensure proper behaviour (Main Enforce Justice)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: CA
[85][CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[6][CA] Open the borders and granaries (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[1][CA] Bring in as many as possible (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
Total No. of Voters: 107

@BlueFlamingWings You can only pick one. May I suggest Crow?
 
[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna

I have decided a nonvote is worse than a vote, and believe that Fythhaghna is slightly superior to Crow for the purposes of the first grand temple.
 
Umi-san said:
Rainbow Trail is where Kings are buried. Settles us on the old king form, though...
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Yeah, that's my least favorite of Mathulmyn's aspects. I much prefer them as the god of "please help the king not fuck up," without the context of being a ruler-if we could merge advisor/consort it might be interesting, actually, though I could see it leading to problems.
 
[X][Temple] Crow
[X][Crow] Alien but knowable
[X][Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X][Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X][CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
Preventing a tiiiiee
 
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