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Paths of Civilization

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VoidZero said:
Again you boast without substance, like a chick mimicking flight without realizing the earth supprting without a complaint.

Can you prove Crow's domain over god and world? What about wisdom?

The goddess proved her domain with our harvests when others suffered famines.

You wish to soar and fly? Go right ahead, the earth will always be here to catch your fall.
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And where is your substance?
Where is the might of your goddess alone. Without farmers and men and our skills, how can a goddess be so mighty when she is incapable of doing their duty alone?

You claim Crow is not wise? How foolish are you?

When the world was moulded by Crow, when he made Gwy and Goya and then the world, did he not whisper his lessons in their ears? Was it not Arxyn himself who asked the question "Are we not wise?"?

Who did the First King ask?

Crow.

Has it not been Crow who taught us to value wisdom with his many tricks? He taught us to always question superstition and test the world about us. Whilst your goddess relied on the wisdom of the people, wisdom being what Crow teaches us, to make the best use of her bounty, she is useless without us, but Crow is beyond any other being. He is the first, he will be the last, and he needs no one, unlike your god who needs us and our wisdom to properly do her duty.

You wish to crawl in the dirt and dark ignorance with a goddess whose might only comes from us. I wish to fly above the world and learn its secrets with a being great enough to live in the world before the world and create the Garden and the Spirits and the Gods.

I wish to gaze upon the sun, upon knowledge and fly up to the future.

You only wish to wallow in the filth below.

Besides, when has Crow ever fallen? Who has ever had the might to defeat him? Who has ever been able to bring him down fromm the skies, from enlightenment?

No one.

And no one shall drag us back into the filth of ignorance again, not now that we are finally learning to be wise, not even 'men' like you.
 
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I do have to say, while we could get Centre of Trade to produce for us to great effect, there is certainly danger in the long run. Mainly, we are Dominant in iron, but when other civilizations discover iron that won't last very long. Iron is just way too common, and even if it weren't our civilization is too environmentalist to build lots of mines to keep ahead. This is a recipe for a lot of wars/stability hits. We should try to evolve it before that happens. Luckily, if we take advantage of it a lot it's more likely to evolve, and it could also get us cheap Golden Ages which we could use to evolve it.
 
Omegahugger said:
You want to know why you should vote for the harvest deity?

Plants are naturally hermaphroditic. This means that a Goddess in charge of them and their growth has a direct influence on mystical forces.

Incidentally, this is also the most likely explanation for why so many rituals and potions require plants. They naturally have shards of both male and female and therefore naturally contain mystical power.
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But she is strictly defined as a she in the update. Don't make stuff up dude.
 
Mrgh. We have so much we need to do. But I think probably our best bet, if we only have one secondary next turn, is to take a Black Soil option-it's hiding something shiny behind it, be it better Expand Forests or even gunpowder. The new saltern is a close second, but that and expanding snail production I think we can count on the provinces to do on their own time, with maybe a little prodding.
 
McLuvin said:
But she is strictly defined as a she in the update. Don't make stuff up dude.
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Well hey, maybe she'll become a sie if we put her temple in the Sacred Forest so that she becomes a nature - rather than harvest - deity. Or she'll get a hubby - a deer, "Horned Lord," if you will - and they'll be the twin gods of nature together. Or she'll evolve into a blood hungry god that demands we flay the young warrior who won last year's games so that the new victor has to wear them for a year.

@Academia Nut Will the Saltern Diplo bonus convert to a Wealth bonus or disappear entirely? At what number of salterns is salt saturation reached, assuming we do not develop an increased number of trade ties?
 
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I would like to know that it seems likely that we can't evolve traits that we steal from other civilizations aside from combining them with our existing traits, and I don't really see very many ways to combine this trading trait with any of our other current traits beyond maybe Honor of Elites but that's kind of pushing it.

Economy expansion slots represent unused space for things like farms or fisheries. Some things take up that land instead like the vineyards or the forests but things like the black soil pits do not actually cost econ expansion space beyond the econ used to produce them because they do not take up very much space. Main Expand Forests appears to not actually add that much more forest instead it makes that forest of a higher quality and thus worth more econ.

Umi-san said:
IIRC symphony just adds an extra hidden action that still costs. I could be wrong though. Ask @notgreat, he's better at #'s.
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Last time this discussion happened I checked and could not come to a definitive conclusion. It seems to be the most likely situation but it is definitely not guaranteed as the one turn in which we are certain that we triggered the symphony bonus also had a large amount of confusion due to AN initially posting the wrong stats.
 
notgreat said:
I would like to know that it seems likely that we can't evolve traits that we steal from other civilizations aside from combining them with our existing traits, and I don't really see very many ways to combine this trading trait with any of our other current traits beyond maybe Honor of Elites but that's kind of pushing it.
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We can retain them by opening up a slot. At this point we can likely evolve them.

It is also possible, however, that if we reach the point at which we would evolve a trait we would adopt and then evolve it. It's more sensible. AN isn't a cruel Crow.
 
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[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
The coolest thing we have going on is our food production being so crazy our people never hunger. A focus on a harvest goddess fits that. I would have also liked the god of "please dont fuck up, king" though. Crow should definitly stay abstract and distant.
 
notgreat said:
I would like to know that it seems likely that we can't evolve traits that we steal from other civilizations aside from combining them with our existing traits, and I don't really see very many ways to combine this trading trait with any of our other current traits beyond maybe Honor of Elites but that's kind of pushing it.
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Good point. I was forgetting a step. Use a Golden Age to get a new Social Value slot, let Centre of Trade slide into that slot, then evolve it. It's annoying but man, oh so worth it if we can pull it off.
 
10ebbor10 said:
Amazing but self-destructive.

Trade will prompt the evolution of currency, which will kill the Saltern bonus.
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Umi-san said:
Kills the saltern bonus but that's counterbalanced by shifting it into the trade bonus. Also, it would die in about the same rate of time anyways since the Xo could start developing a trustworthy currency.
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Deathbybunnies said:
Salterns will still have an effect - we're the dominant producer of salt - and losing 1 Dip/turn for 3 Dip/turn is well worth it. Besides, inventing money would still be really god damn useful.
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pblur said:
AN said that Currency would rework Diplomacy into a Wealth stat. So we'll almost certainly still get a bonus, it'll just be statted different.

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Also, if supercharging our trade goods does lead to us creating currency (which sounds like the kind of thing a Golden Age diplo innovation crit would make), then we'll almost certainly get some sort of "Pioneers of Wealth" legacy bonus, as well as a shorter-term bonus from our neighbors initially using our currency
 
Abby Normal said:
Also, if supercharging our trade goods does lead to us creating currency (which sounds like the kind of thing a Golden Age diplo innovation crit would make), then we'll almost certainly get some sort of "Pioneers of Wealth" legacy bonus, as well as a shorter-term bonus from our neighbors initially using our currency
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Doubtful that it would be a short-term bonus. IIRC it was usually a pretty long one as even when neighboring kingdoms developed coinage it took a while before it was trusted as much, widely, as the coinage of the original, more reliable maker.
 
McLuvin said:
And where is your substance?
Where is the might of your goddess alone. Without farmers and men and our skills, how can a goddess be so mighty when she is incapable of doing their duty alone?

You claim Crow is not wise? How foolish are you?

When the world was moulded by Crow, when he made Gwy and Goya and then the world, did he not whisper his lessons in their ears? Was it not Arxyn himself who asked the question "Are we not wise?"?

Who did the First King ask?

Crow.

Has it not been Crow who taught us to value wisdom with his many tricks? He taught us to always question superstition and test the world about us. Whilst your goddess relied on the wisdom of the people, wisdom being what Crow teaches us, to make the best use of her bounty, she is useless without us, but Crow is beyond any other being. He is the first, he will be the last, and he needs no one, unlike your god who needs us and our wisdom to properly do her duty.

You wish to crawl in the dirt and dark ignorance with a goddess whose might only comes from us. I wish to fly above the world and learn its secrets with a being great enough to live in the world before the world and create the Garden and the Spirits and the Gods.

I wish to gaze upon the sun, upon knowledge and fly up to the future.

You only wish to wallow in the filth below.

Besides, when has Crow ever fallen? Who has ever had the might to defeat him? Who has ever been able to bring him down fromm the skies, from enlightenment?

No one.

And no one shall drag us back into the filth of ignorance again, not now that we are finally learning to be wise, not even 'men' like you.
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Ah! you wish to bask yourself in shadow of the Crow, why don't you say so in the beginning?

I wish for all human to work with the Spirits not forever under their guidance. We are fostered by the world but we will eventually out grow this earth, and we will lift ourself from our own strength not reliant on Spirit's strength.

Go ahead and climb onto Crow's back, he will show you the way. You will forever be the passenger, not the driver.
 
Umi-san said:
Mixed in, do an expansion on the current Saltern somewhat slowly, cus it takes the most $ but provides the greatest return
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Keep in mind, we're the only local power with sea access besides the Hathatyn. Salt isn't something that is going to come on the market easily, so the salterns aren't an immediate need. This is especially true with the Hathatyn not en producing salt yet. They are competing with our dye market. Mostly, we will need to stabilize and boost the production of wines and dyes just a bit.


BungieONI said:
Fuck.



E: And we just got occupational admin. Double Fuck.
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Yeah, it sucks, but also keep in mind that we will only hit the downsides if we lose a leading position in a market. Currently we aren't at risk for that to happen in any of our goods, but only dyes and wine are currently even a consideration. The Hathatyn don't have the stoneworking to produce a saltern, so there's no risk. So long as we boost Snail and Wines a bit more, possibly main Snail, Main vineyard at some point, we shouldn't have an issue.
 
[X] [Temple] Mathulmyn
[X] [Crow] Benevolent
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Umi-san said:
Well hey, maybe she'll become a sie if we put her temple in the Sacred Forest so that she becomes a nature - rather than harvest - deity. Or she'll get a hubby - a deer, "Horned Lord," if you will - and they'll be the twin gods of nature together. Or she'll evolve into a blood hungry god that demands we flay the young warrior who won last year's games so that the new victor has to wear them for a year.
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There are possibilities, then there is fanfiction. This is you basically saying what you want to happen not what could happen mate
 
pbluekan said:
Keep in mind, we're the only local power with sea access besides the Hathatyn. Salt isn't something that is going to come on the market easily, so the salterns aren't an immediate need. This is especially true with the Hathatyn not en producing salt yet. They are competing with our dye market. Mostly, we will need to stabilize and boost the production of wines and dyes just a bit.




Yeah, it sucks, but also keep in mind that we will only hit the downsides if we lose a leading position in a market. Currently we aren't at risk for that to happen in any of our goods, but only dyes and wine are currently even a consideration. The Hathatyn don't have the stoneworking to produce a saltern, so there's no risk. So long as we boost Snail and Wines a bit more, possibly main Snail, Main vineyard at some point, we shouldn't have an issue.
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The main problem I see is that we just lost our only reliable way to restore our stability.

The tools to do it currently available to us all come with significant downsides.

We will have to be extremely careful with stability for now, and an economic crash could cost us a lot.

Otherwise I would have been fine with the new trait.
 
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pbluekan said:
Keep in mind, we're the only local power with sea access besides the Hathatyn. Salt isn't something that is going to come on the market easily, so the salterns aren't an immediate need. This is especially true with the Hathatyn not en producing salt yet. They are competing with our dye market. Mostly, we will need to stabilize and boost the production of wines and dyes just a bit.
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Yes it is. We need to become Dominant (wording) ASAP so we can receive the positive sides of the trait ASAP and start on the path to GA/overflow.

McLuvin said:
There are possibilities, then there is fanfiction. This is you basically saying what you want to happen not what could happen mate
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*shrug* I think her becoming hermaphroditic/weird is inevitable if we put her in the forest. It's not something I want.

What I want is for us to put her in Valleyhome, so she becomes the goddess of fertility and health. This thus splits up Study Forest for Sacred Forest and Study Health for Valleyhome, where we have a larger population that will allow us to perform more intensive studies on the effect of medicine upon various people. We can eventually put the twins in Redcoast, the King of Gods in Rainbow, and eventually a metal smith or something in the mountains somewhere.

Also, fertility applies to both cities (valleyhome) and crops (valleyhome) so it just makes sense.
 
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VoidZero said:
Ah! you wish to bask yourself in shadow of the Crow, why don't you say so in the beginning?

I wish for all human to work with the Spirits not forever under their guidance. We are fostered by the world but we will eventually out grow this earth, and we will lift ourself from our own strength not reliant on Spirit's strength.

Go ahead and climb onto Crow's back, he will show you the way. You will forever be the passenger, not the driver.
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This looks like fun.;)

You say that you follow the Goddess and not Crow for you feel you may overshadow her, but Crow never. How simple thy dreams... the roots may go deep but they do not dare to soar. Fitting that...
 
pblur said:
does any negative change in trade status on a good trigger the downside, or is it only losing dominant?
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Only losing dominant, although there will be grumbles for other downward trends.

Umi-san said:
Is the goddess a hermaphrodite?
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No, only the earliest spirits to emerge were hermaphroditic as male and female had not yet fully separated, although there is basically a deity of queerness and magic.

Umi-san said:
Will the Saltern Diplo bonus convert to a Wealth bonus or disappear entirely? At what number of salterns is salt saturation reached, assuming we do not develop an increased number of trade ties?
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It will change form. And at this era, if you can saturate the salt market you've won. Permanently.
 
VoidZero said:
Ah! you wish to bask yourself in shadow of the Crow, why don't you say so in the beginning?

I wish for all human to work with the Spirits not forever under their guidance. We are fostered by the world but we will eventually out grow this earth, and we will lift ourself from our own strength not reliant on Spirit's strength.

Go ahead and climb onto Crow's back, he will show you the way. You will forever be the passenger, not the driver.
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You talk about removing ourselves from this earth?

Then why do you want to make us reliant upon a goddess bound to it!

Your hypocrisy is foolish. It is Crow who drives innovation, it is Crow who will lead us from this earth into enlightenment, not a goddess bound to the earth, who draws her strength from others.

Being bound to her will make us slaves, make us forced to till the earth and only till the earth, to focus upon the ground, when we could fly amongst the sky.

Where no shadows exist.

If you stay stuck doing the harvest, then the Crows flying above the air will always cast their shadow down on you.
 
Umi-san said:
Doubtful that it would be a short-term bonus. IIRC it was usually a pretty long one as even when neighboring kingdoms developed coinage it took a while before it was trusted as much, widely, as the coinage of the original, more reliable maker.
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I mostly meant "not a theoretically permanent bonus, unlike the legacy bonus" by shorter-term; i was thinking "major bonus for 2-4 turns for having the first reliable currency"

Of course, i wouldn't be surprised if the Xoh ended up ending their golden age via currency innovation. Actually... @Academia Nut we got an alert when the Xoh started their golden age, will we get an alert when they end it? Or for that matter, was there anything special about why we got that alert, or are golden ages just obvious enough that we'll get an alert for any neighbor we have decent contact with?
 
Also, didn't vote yet

[X][Temple] Crow
[X][Crow] Alien but knowable
[X][Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X][Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X][CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Abby Normal said:
Of course, i wouldn't be surprised if the Xoh ended up ending their golden age via currency boost. Actually... @Academia Nut we got an alert when the Xoh started their golden age, will we get an alert when they end it? Or for that matter, was there anything special about why we got that alert, or are golden ages just obvious enough that we'll get an alert for any neighbor we have decent contact with?
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You'll get an alert for neighbours who you are in good contact with as you'll notice that they seem to be doing great.

The Xoh are deliberately rejecting golden age advances as they are attempting to build up their stats to max while still also fulfilling the military duties the Thunder Horse want of them. With everything at max, they can use their dominant fine pottery advantage to not have to worry about losing their True City status and then do... things.
 
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