Paths of Civilization

BungieONI · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
You and I both know that hereditary was an inevitability in this era. Cementing it around a heroic line(and a WOMAN at that) is better than most.

Besides it's really tying together all the chiefs from all the provinces together. This has problems, but it also has benefits.

bluefur87 said:
So, was the admin upgrade chariot couriers?

Also, what are the long term side effects of Atkin's proposal? It sounds like we'll go off of the elective system which... well, honestly was inevitable until we get decent public education (which won't happen in the near future).

No I don't think it does take us off the elective system de jure. De facto it does, but since we were already having a group of educated families (chief families) that were really the only source of chiefs, much like Roman Senatorial families, we've been operating de facto for a while now all this does is put those many chief families under the House Of Magwyna.

Not bad in my opinion.

VoidZero · May 12, 2017

[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

What? The true thunder horses carved thunder speakers while maintaining city state system? With strong walls no less.

We have very big problem there.

And now we are aligned with Highland Kingdom against nomads. How does this work? Nomads are north-west and HK are South-East.

Anyway, we might pull HK apart, devour the pieces then content against DP and TH in the fertile lowland.

10ebbor10 · May 12, 2017

[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

bluefur87 · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
sounds like a yes to both questions.

Yes, but my one major question is, how likely is this to lead to hereditary land ownership?

I'm not against hereditary leaders, honestly, but I do not want hereditary land ownership. At the very least, I'd like someone to give me a reasonable 'this is how it could happen,' scenario so I can give a rough estimate to the risks.

ctulhuslp · May 12, 2017

Candesce said:
We need more expensive study actions.

#NeolithicFirstWorldProblems

Magwyn is absolutely glorious. Best girl.
And CHARIOT COURIERS FUCK YEAH.

OTOH, his advice is...I do not know. Alliance with HK could be the first step on the road to integrating them, or at least will cement our alliance, but....oh, I know what's happening, I think.

@Academia Nut , is 'Family First'-like value of nomads Honour?

Glassware · May 12, 2017

[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

BungieONI said:
No I don't think it does take us off the elective system de jure. De facto it does, but since we were already having a group of educated families (chief families) that were really the only source of chiefs, much like Roman Senatorial families, we've been operating de facto for a while now all this does is put those many chief families under the House Of Magwyna.

Not bad in my opinion.

Yeah, it shouldn't affect our specialist chiefs too much, meaning a hero unit can still make their way into kingship by merit.

Dieb · May 12, 2017

Other great things about this update: Chariot Couriers is AMAZING as an administration tech, just what we needed. Two new provinces means another province action. And with our Centralization at 3 due to those two new provinces, we can try a double Main New Trails and see what happens. If Magwyna is still alive next turn, and, you know, actually lets us decide anything, that would be a very interesting choice.

DragonParadox · May 12, 2017

The way I see it having our inevitable transition away from the elective under the rule of a woman would to some extent tie the prestige of the ruling house to the idea that women can rule in their own right... that's a very big stumbling block in the path of evolving gender biases.

Glassware · May 12, 2017

Wait a second, did the provinces double main Eastern Hills? They should have three secondary actions, one doubled by The Law.

Kiba · May 12, 2017

bluefur87 said:
So, was the admin upgrade chariot couriers?

Also, what are the long term side effects of Atkin's proposal? It sounds like we'll go off of the elective system which... well, honestly was inevitable until we get decent public education (which won't happen in the near future).

It looks like it. Is it a relay system, though?

[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Candesce · May 12, 2017

Glassware said:
Wait a second, did the provinces double main Eastern Hills? They should have three secondary actions, one doubled by The Law.

Secondary EH, doubled;
Secondary Black River, x2.

Doubling goes for a single secondary if at all possible.

ctulhuslp · May 12, 2017

bluefur87 said:
Yes, but my one major question is, how likely is this to lead to hereditary land ownership?

I'm not against hereditary leaders, honestly, but I do not want hereditary land ownership. At the very least, I'd like someone to give me a reasonable 'this is how it could happen,' scenario so I can give a rough estimate to the risks.

Thing is, if Family First is Honour value, then it will fill our remaining Honour value slot with the last thing we wanted to be there.

Dieb said:
Other great things about this update: Chariot Couriers is AMAZING as an administration tech, just what we needed. Two new provinces means another province action. And with our Centralization at 3 due to those two new provinces, we can try a double Main New Trails and see what happens. If Magwyna is still alive next turn, and, you know, actually let's us decide anything, that would be a very interesting choice.

Double Main Trails under the Mason Queen sounds cool.
OTOH, I want Double Main Festivals.
OTYAH, we need more boats.

Motoko · May 12, 2017

[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] The People always let in those that come to them (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
Next turn we should build the Dam and study metalworking in hopes of using the overflowing mysticism to get us a tech discovery!

Kiba · May 12, 2017

If we secure an alliance with the highland kingdom, we will be forced to send soldiers to them for their defenses?

tryrar · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
#NeolithicFirstWorldProblems

Magwyn is absolutely glorious. Best girl.
And CHARIOT COURIERS FUCK YEAH.

OTOH, his advice is...I do not know. Alliance with HK could be the first step on the road to integrating them, or at least will cement our alliance, but....oh, I know what's happening, I think.

@Academia Nut , is 'Family First'-like value of nomads Honour?

yup, that was one of the honor values we could have gotten fro LoO. Sounds like we might get something similar from this that cements hereditary systems.

Candesce · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Thing is, if Family First is Honour value, then it will fill our remaining Honour value slot with the last thing we wanted to be there.

Then we'll have to take actions to remove it.

We can do that.

The catch is that we might end up in a war with the Highlanders in the process.

bluefur87 · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Thing is, if Family First is Honour value, then it will fill our remaining Honour value slot with the last thing we wanted to be there.

I think it might be their single societal value.

random_npc · May 12, 2017

I'm not going to complain that a heroic admin will take control away for a turn. I would be unsurprised if they get to act with knowledge we don't, and if nothing else the guy deciding what would be the best thing to do knows the system better than we do.

BungieONI · May 12, 2017

Dieb said:
My only problem with following Attrikwyn's advice is that he seems to think that it will lead to Magwyna's family being kings going forward. While I very much doubt it will lead to hereditary kings or something like that, it COULD lead to our leaders being chosen in a more hereditary rather than a more meritocratic way. I need to think about this more, because otherwise it would seem that taking this will pretty much end potential conflicts we might have with the Stallion Tribes and the north.

We've been a meritocratic system for sure, and a lot of candidates are screened by skill.

The kicker here is that we are operating a system much like the Roman Senatorial families. Our chiefs all generally come from the same groups of "rich" families that can provide the education needed to make good chief candidates. This means that yes a newcomer can rise to power on the scene but it is rare. Doing this basically fuses all of these chief families under the House Of Magwyna. From the Marchers to the Southshore the Rulers of the People will be one House. But that opening for a newcomer to join the House will still be there, so the status quo does not change very much and it really only stabilizes by canceling infighting. This also dilutes the foreign influence like Atti is saying and that is very important.

Dieb said:
Other great things about this update: Chariot Couriers is AMAZING as an administration tech, just what we needed. Two new provinces means another province action. And with our Centralization at 3 due to those two new provinces, we can try a double Main New Trails and see what happens. If Magwyna is still alive next turn, and, you know, actually let's us decide anything, that would be a very interesting choice.

I know right?

VoidZero · May 12, 2017

Kiba said:
If we secure an alliance with the highland kingdom, we will be forced to send soldiers to them for their defenses?

Well it's an alliance, so coming to defence of other is the point.

Besides we don't know if that includes civil war on their part, interesting to find out.

tryrar · May 12, 2017

Side note: I'm amused that both our CONFIRMED heroic admin kings/chiefs have been women

bluefur87 · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
yup, that was one of the honor values we could have gotten fro LoO. Sounds like we might get something similar from this that cements hereditary systems.

It was merely confirmed to be one of their values, not one of their honor values, I believe. Still makes it a possibility to acquire through LoO, mind.

Honor values deal with glory and where it comes from, and I don't think 'family first' is any more glory oriented than our divine stewards line or protective justice line. In either attaining glory or losing it. I think it's a societal value.

tryrar · May 12, 2017

@Academia Nut is the Nomad's family oriented value Honor-based or Societal-based?

ctulhuslp · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
yup, that was one of the honor values we could have gotten fro LoO. Sounds like we might get something similar from this that cements hereditary systems.

Sounds like NOPE to me, although I really would like to make friends with Atrikwynn.

Candesce said:
Then we'll have to take actions to remove it.

We can do that.

Technically, we can; practically, we knew from the start that we need better communications to better integrate Northen provinces, and yet didn't take the boats once since we've acquired March. Actions are our rarest resource, after all.

BungieONI said:
We've been a meritocratic system for sure, and a lot of candidates are screened by skill.

The kicker here is that we are operating a system much like the Roman Senatorial families. Our chiefs all generally come from the same groups of "rich" families that can provide the education needed to make good chief candidates. This means that yes a newcomer can rise to power on the scene but it is rare. Doing this basically fuses all of these chief families under the House Of Magwyna. From the Marchers to the Southshore the Rulers of the People will be one House. But that opening for a newcomer to join the House will still be there, so the status quo does not change very much and it really only stabilizes by canceling infighting. This also dilutes the foreign influence like Atti is saying and that is very important.

I mean, were our chiefs ever influenced this way? Ataturk is talking from his northern perspective, with patriarchy, hereditary inheritance and whatnot. It may not apply to other chiefs, about whom he does not really know all that much.

bluefur87 said:
It was merely confirmed to be one of their values, not one of their honor values, I believe. Still makes it a possibility to acquire through LoO, mind.

Honor values deal with glory and where it comes from, and I don't think 'family first' is any more glory oriented than our divine stewards line or protective justice line. In either attaining glory or losing it. I think it's a societal value.

Faair enough, I guess? I mean, I still am leery of this alliance, because you can't have both meritocracy and hereditary kings dynasty.

2xMachina · May 12, 2017

[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Eehhh.... don't really like the way it's going. Looks like we're gonna be forced to be hereditary....
Then, with bad luck, we'd roll an idiot for king.

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

DON'T PANIC

Herald of Iron to The People

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Passing Flan 布丁魔王