I'm dealing with the problem the very next turn, as well as the turn after. What do you mean by "free turn"?
Assuming we don't need shit done the turn you want to spend getting the dam built is assuming we have a "free turn:" a turn that won't cost us in the form of significant social upheaval.

Assuming that delaying one turn won't have any consequences is foolish, and the consequences could be very painful. See, e.g., losing the March and having them start raiding us for wives.

And the only relevant benefit the dam really gives us at the moment is that one point of stability you're so willing to burn. Construction tech isn't immediately vital, and spending that much manpower to make the southern provinces wealthier is going to aggravate the Stallions even worse.

And that's all assuming the dam gets built without complications, which I suppose is a safe enough assumption given a heroic administrator.
 
Econ: Increase in unemployment, quite likely to cause stability hits as we address the issue, bare minimum.
Diplo: Politics starts allowing for rampant increase in power of the trade cast, possibly causing people to start stealing from the perceived 'too rich' or just a general dislike of us overly focusing on shinies. I would not be surprised if this cost stability to fix.
Mysticism: Increased number of superstitions, see our current problem.

The only time we went into red in a stat was a temporary drop of negative econ, otherwise we have not seen the problem. Do not underestimate the problems that will occur, and if they happen under the leadership of a female artisan leader, it will purely encourage those who are against her rulership that either artisans are improper rulers, or that females are not fit to rule. Taking our female artisan as a ruler is as much of a gamble as it is an opportunity and I do not want to fuck it up.
I'm a little skeptical about unemployment in this tech level. I don't think it's a problem.

Edit: Not that I know what red econ means. :D
 
I'm a little skeptical about unemployment in this tech level. I don't think it's a problem.

Edit: Not that I know what red econ means. :D
Econ is a pure measure of potential manpower, if we have a huge level of manpower we are unable to handle, then that creates serious problems. Worse yet, our people are work a holics, meaning that they will start getting depressed if they have nothing to do.

We have long since surpassed the need for constantly farming to feed everyone by focusing on econ tech, and having an unused surplus is something that can create many very real problems. That said, econ is less of the danger as much as diplo and mysticism. We should not underestimate the problems red stats can generate, and we're at a point where we are in danger of going over in two categories.
 
@Academia Nut Does 'Build Watchtowers' rely on a leaders Martial or their Admin for the roll? Also, do the Stallion Tribes still have good relations with the Western Thunder Horse tribes?

I think we need to keep in mind that the Stallion Tribes have been fighting even if we haven't and it's been a while since we even sent them any martial assistance. They likely have poor feelings over that. There's a lot of things in the works for Magwyna to try to achieve, but if we're going to try to keep the March as part of our kingdom, (we should), some things are going to be much more impressive for them than others. Unfortunately, the things that impress them most would probably be martial-related. There may be some gray area for 'Admin or Diplo but Martial-related'.

I'm hoping watchtowers are Admin, since walls are both a boon and a curse for us in terms of reigning in the March and watchtowers should help us stay connected. If we could make the Stallion Tribes happy while doing a Salt Gift to the Western Thunder Horse, that'd be great, but I'm not counting on it.
 
I think we need to keep in mind that the Stallion Tribes have been fighting even if we haven't and it's been a while since we even sent them any martial assistance. They likely have poor feelings over that.
I don't think they are fighting right now. IIRC, the nomads disappeared after the meteor strike for some reason. They've been focusing on building up since then, not fighting.
 
It massively improves our drought resistance, which is a disaster that we haven't seen in a while but could be coming back at any time. Every single megaproject has given us very useful civilization-lasting benefits. Most actions give us either stats or small advantages, whereas the megaprojects have: *snip*
There hasn't been a drought in centuries. Nifty in the long term the Great Dam is... unless it breaks. Countering an issue that hasn't been a problem since the literal Time of Legends. Droughts and Floods that were blamed on a Faction that no longer exists that did freaky spirit bribery things.

There is currently a new Doom Plague. There is a disenfranchised March that feels unloved. There is new issues from expanding South. There is notStonehenge to burn excess Mysticism on.

So, I consider countering an issue from antiquity that hasn't come up at all recently to be a vanity project relative to half a dozen other options. Not a bad project really, just ill time narratively.
 
Assuming we don't need shit done the turn you want to spend getting the dam built is assuming we have a "free turn:" a turn that won't cost us in the form of significant social upheaval.

Assuming that delaying one turn won't have any consequences is foolish, and the consequences could be very painful. See, e.g., losing the March and having them start raiding us for wives.
Just like our original tax situation, the problem is there but it's not anywhere near as critical as you seem to think it is.
We're losing 1 stability because the Stallion Tribes aren't going to be happy with our choice. They're not going to randomly declare war on us at the same time just because. Can you give any textual support that they're anywhere even close to splitting off or starting a civil war? They're a heck of a lot happier now than they were back when they had two heroes that we rejected in a row, and no one was claiming that they'd start a civil war over that (though we would have a civil war if we tried to suppress them fully). They haven't even ever fought against the Nomads without our help yet.

Also, the Dam is almost certainly going to give us a permanent benefit just like every single one of our other megaprojects.

The only time we went into red in a stat was a temporary drop of negative econ,
We've never seen this either, we've hit 0 at our lowest. Also, if there's unemployment then we just have more people farming and we have a food surplus that gets wasted. Not a good thing, certainly, but not a huge problem.
 
So, upon thinking on it I think the key issue in getting rid of the belief (outside of just tanking the Stability hit and letting them Observe that nothing is happening) is by raising up Mysticism and Expanding the Holy Sites, that we can "bless" any metal tools or weapons to prevent disease.
 
Econ is a pure measure of potential manpower, if we have a huge level of manpower we are unable to handle, then that creates serious problems. Worse yet, our people are work a holics, meaning that they will start getting depressed if they have nothing to do.

It's slightly more complex than that, in that it represents a combination of available manpower, food production, and growth potential. A high Econ means that you have a very large amount of your population involved in agriculture but have room to take people off of pure food production and do other things, it does not mean unemployment. The opposite in fact, really.
 
I've seen a fair number of people speculating that the Stallion tribes are angry at the lack of investment in the northern provinces, but I don't think I've seen any evidence in the text for this. Can someone quote AN where he says this, if he did? It especially doesn't make sense to me due to the fact that the Saltern was built in the north. I think MORE investment in the north might be a good thing, but I very much doubt investment in the south will be a bad thing.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of people thinking about Main Study Mining at some point in the near future to counteract our new bad trait. That's definitely an option, but don't forget about doing a Main Copper Mine! Study Mining at this point seems like it's a good amount less likely to actually achieve anything, while with the baby boom ending we'll need more Econ in general. Especially if we go with Dam next turn, doing a Main Copper Mine could help with that a lot. It also provides Art and Mysticism, as we learned this turn, and will probably go even better if we do it with our new construction hero.
 
AN all but stated that Study Health was a trap option. We're already basically at the highest possible tech for Study Health.

Also, why go for -1.5 stability? That has no chance of the extra effects and is perfectly neutral in terms of action efficiency assuming we use {M} GS to get it back.
I don't expect a discovery, I expect a new application of existing palliative care in the form of highly-mind-altering opiate-laced cough syrup.

I go for the -1.5 stability because there is a net positive chance effect due to GG, which makes it have potentially higher action economy (and Econ economy) than the minimal option for the same general result.
 
There hasn't been a drought in centuries. Nifty in the long term the Great Dam is... unless it breaks. Countering an issue that hasn't been a problem since the literal Time of Legends. Droughts and Floods that were blamed on a Faction that no longer exists that did freaky spirit bribery things.

There is currently a new Doom Plague. There is a disenfranchised March that feels unloved. There is new issues from expanding South. There is notStonehenge to burn excess Mysticism on.

So, I consider countering an issue from antiquity that hasn't come up at all recently to be a vanity project relative to half a dozen other options. Not a bad project really, just ill time narratively.
To be fair, the right time for a drought narratively is when it hasn't been seen since the time of legends...

I mean, that's a big time window so I'm not arguing it's around the corner. And furthermore, I don't think narrative has much to do with famine. Pretty sure that's determined almost solely by attribute modded dice rolls.
 
Thinking about it, there's another action we should certainly be considering at the moment:

Proclaim Glory.
A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions

It costs Art, which we're not currently using for anything else despite a significant supply, and it has a chance of gaining us prestige.

Also, it directly counteracts some of the worries about our Queen if she can prove how awesome and trustworthy she is - and as a diplomatic action, she'll be quite good at it.
 
I have to say, the rabid anti-sexism is something that worries me more than anything else in terms of the voter base. It's lead to a lot of people denigrating and dehumanizing the Stallions-who are our people and at least try to fit into the system. And it's promoted a really toxic view- as far as I'm concerned- sexism is not and never will be a hill I feel inclined to die on in the fucking chalcolithic era. We have a benevolent, kind, just, and tolerant nation where even if women are being discriminated against they'll still have actual codified legal protection and a better life than they'd have pretty much anywhere else. That's not to say promoting gender equality is bad, but it's not worth pushing to civil war like some people seem to be willing. We have to accept we don't necessarily have total control how our culture develops, and that every culture is going to have some ugly blind spots.

I say this now, because the tax reform proved just how stubborn SV could be and that we as a whole are perfectly willing to demonize any major internal dissent.

Personally I'm fine with the Stalions. Mind if we had gotten a heroic general (who was not one of them obviously) I would have been perfectly fine with demonizing them IC so as to get rid of the possibility of the family first value... sine that is pure poison for out social and economic set-up. However we have a heroic administrator. That means we shoulduse the tools to hand.
 
Thinking about it, there's another action we should certainly be considering at the moment:

Proclaim Glory.


It costs Art, which we're not currently using for anything else despite a significant supply, and it has a chance of gaining us prestige.

Also, it directly counteracts some of the worries about our Queen if she can prove how awesome and trustworthy she is - and as a diplomatic action, she'll be quite good at it.
NEW TURN PLAN:

[Main] Proclaim Glory
[Main] Proclaim Glory x2

LOOK AT YOUR OLD KING, NOW BACK TO ME, I'M THE QUEEN YOUR KING COULD BE WITH OLD SPICE~
 
Personally I'm fine with the Stalions. Mind if we had gotten a heroic general (who was not one of them obviously) I would have been perfectly fine with demonizing them IC so as to get rid of the possibility of the family first value... sine that is pure poison for out social and economic set-up. However we have a heroic administrator. That means we shoulduse the tools to hand.
I can respect that position, though I'd be opposed to that sort of precedent.
Adhoc vote count started by pblur on May 10, 2017 at 2:37 PM, finished with 538 posts and 101 votes.
 
@Academia Nut
Does the "modified by Diplomacy skill" on Proclaim Glory mean that it gets extra effects with high diplomacy, or does it just modify the likelihood of getting the possible Prestige? Same question for Restoration of Order but for Admin.
 
Debilitating Belief Gained!
So this is basically what the Spirit Talkers got, with their belief that the lowlands were cursed? And so not only Sacred War procced, but their beliefs compelled them to continue attacking, for basically no gain...

So, options.

For the upgrades, the only two contenders are the Admin upgrade and the Construction upgrade. These are random, so they're probably not greatly connected to our actions this past turn. Nonetheless, the roll is probably weighted toward things that make sense as a consequence of our past actions. I don't quite know what the Admin tech is weighted towards, but I believe I can guess that the Construction tech would be weighted towards things that empower our ability to construct canals and other water-tight pathways. Though, the March is making some noise again, which I take as a sign that we're heading into that crisis soon. As in, a turn or so from now. Thus, the Admin tech is more likely to help with our short-term problems.

Our next leader is taken as Magwyn, in a landslide, which is a good thing. Integrating the March would take strong Admin, though her Poor Martial works against us if our measures fail and we are faced with a civil war.

Our refugee option is more a question of what Stability we think we need for the coming turns than the Econ, I think. The maximum hits (-3 to -5) gives the greatest Econ, as well as possible tech transfer opportunities, in exchange for effectively mandating Main Restore Order for the next turn or two, if we're lucky. Since I think addressing the March problem would likely take Stability hits, I'd rather minimize the hit and difficulty of integrating foreign peoples for this option.

Now, Grand Sacrifice vs New Trails. While the vote for Sacrifice tries to shore up Stability (where were you people when we were spending Stability like water during the Tax Crisis and earlier?), narratively I believe, in conjunction with our new taboo against metal, this option would result in people destroying their metal tools. Since the Copper Mine gave us 3 Econ, and Grand Sacrifice costs 3 Econ, it makes a sort of mechanical sense. New Trails, on the other hand, is an attempt to take advantage of our slightly below limit Centralization to spread land routes to our northern provinces to make progress toward the March problem. Narratively, I think I'd like to take this action next turn, so to take advantage of Magwyna's Heroic Admin, but that's still an option if we make a New Province next turn, so.

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Okay, regarding stability: we have the luxury of being able to choose stability hitting options this turn because we have enough Stability to weather it. I would be way, way more inclined to vote for Trails if every damn chance to improve Stability was not basically a quest equivalent of trench warfare.
If we were not lucky enough to crit into Sanitation, we would be:
1. Meeting the previous plague at ~0 Stability without any defence, with appropriate consequences.
2. Would not get +2 Stability from Garden and Saltern and thus would have to fight this one with 0 Stability too.
Basically, we were extremely lucky with that sanitation crit, and I do not expect it to happen again, thus I do not expect such basically free Stability to fall in our lap out of nowhere. And since we would be utterly fucked if we did not have that crit, I maintain that we need Stability.

Like, I understand the reasoning behind the desire to bring Stallions closer into the fold, and if I had any faith in people's ability to stockpile Stability before we need it, I would go for trails. But people never ever vote for Stability. So far dice gods saved us from consequences of it, with that crit and its consequences now; I do not expect dice to bail us out again.
 
Ok, thoughts on what I'd do next turn, with assumptions and reasons explained:

[main] Proclaim Glory

We're explicitly warned that the Stallions don't trust our Queen. Proclaim Glory is a diplomatic way to change that, and our queen is very good at diplomacy. Also, we get stability out of it.

[secondary] Extended Project - Aqueduct, to Northshore(?)

Demonstrating that we can back up our Glorious Claims. Also makes the March much less likely to split off, because, you know, we'd stop sending them water. Should be possible as a secondary; nothing has said so far that we have to use main actions to do these, just that they'd take more than one.

Also, having no megaproject running means we can switch to Infrastructure Policy mid-turn, which will get us lots of aqueducts - even if the efficiency isn't perfect.

[secondary] Study Metal
This doesn't cost us stability, because it's not being done in full view of the people. By the same standard, it won't remove our new superstition.

That said, we really want to give our shamans time to figure out how they'd go about proving metal doesn't cause pertussis before we try to do that with the whole population watching. Much less likely to blow up in our faces that way.
 
Last edited:
High saturation means my retarded plan has a better chance of winning when the project vote comes up.

It's working already.
Like... it's not even THAT insane. It's basically a dice roll; if you crit on double main proclaim glory, I can't imagine ANY internal social issues hurting your reign. And we might even get a Legitimacy cap bump. (Wonder what word describes Stab4? Emboldened->Suicidal?)
 
Don't forget that if we get a province this turn we start getting another action (possibly 2 since The Law is more likely to double a main then) every single turn. It's a pretty freaking massive benefit.

We can either make it ourselves or switch to Policy: Expansion, but we should get it either way.
 
Back
Top